Perpetua and The Darkest Knight in Multiverse forms upgrade to 1-B.

[Elizio33]

To be honest they shouldn't even have a weakend state in the Multiverse.

Perpetua doesn't have any confirmation of such a thing, best you can do is say that she should operate like her sons but technically they don't even have the same physiology since they were just born from pieces of the overvoid.

It makes even less sense for Batman who laughs, since his powers are literally just from another version of Dr Manhattan. Dr Manhattan has zero statements or implications of being weakened while in the Multiverse

Indeed, she should have a diminished state rather than a in multiverse key since Scott Snyder said that the stature that she had before and her whole nature in general was diminished due to her imprisonment in the Source Wall.

 

[Xearsay]

True but Low 1-C Bleed is from Grant Morrison's cosmology (Bleedspace rotating through the 5th Dimension stuffs) and Scott Snyder mostly based his cosmology on Morrison's. So Low 1-C is much more accurate to me.

Scott also built off dozens of comics that weren’t written by Morrison. Personally I don’t believe in writers owning certain parts of the cosmology only to themselves. I see it as one big cosmology worked on by many writers. Seeing the cosmology as separated by writer just makes it seem like DC doesn’t have editors who’s jobs are literally to fit what the writers write into one big continuity.

 

[Deagonx]

Obviously we don’t occupy one dimension but what she means is the dimension there in exist two steps from his native dimensionality. Being that he is three dimensional.

None of this is in the text. The simplest interpretation is that the "dimension" they are in is a realm, not a spatial dimension. Why would we do all of this editorializing instead of taking a more straightforward approach? So we can wank DC?

There can be a 196,833 dimensional space and also innumerable dimensions.

Sure? That's ignoring all of the other scans.

Because there’s multiple established amounts that can all fall under the maximum amount. So to be fair it’s best to simply take the maximum amount.

If someone says "all 14 dimensions" that implies a maximum. If someone says "the 28 dimensions" then that, too, implies a maximum.

The local Multiverse of 52 known universes was finite sure. I don’t know what that has to do with the rest of the cosmology.

I'm not referring to the known universes. I'm referring to the fact that during the fight between TDK and Perpetua there were "only 6 universes left in the multiverse." Which is a maximum of 6.

Likewise, World Forger stated himself that the once infinite multiverse collapsed down to 52 universes. He never said "known" and it wouldn't make sense to interpret it this way. If the multiverse stayed infinite the whole time, it wouldn't even be an event.

 

[Xearsay]

Last reply since I'm not wasting time with your trolling.

None of this is in the text. The simplest interpretation is that the "dimension" they are in is a realm, not a spatial dimension. Why would we do all of this editorializing instead of taking a more straightforward approach? So we can wank DC?

It's obviously implied. You mean why analyze the text in a manner that requires a small amount of brain power?

Also you can keep trying to accuse me of wanking. It will never take away from the fact that you tried to downgrade 90% of DC below 3-A.

If someone says "all 14 dimensions" that implies a maximum. If someone says "the 28 dimensions" then that, too, implies a maximum.

That's not what I meant by maximum amount. By maximum amount I meant the scan that that has the highest referenced amount.

I'm not referring to the known universes.

I know. That's why I corrected you.

 

[Deagonx]

Last reply since I'm not wasting time with your trolling.

I'm not trolling, you are the one who made this CRT. If you aren't willing to explain all of the inaccuracies in your theory, why should it be adopted?

It's obviously implied. You mean why analyze the text in a manner that requires a small amount of brain power

Why result to insults instead of actually explaining? Do you have any explanation other than saying "obviously?" You're suggesting we should severely editorialize the text to make it fit your theory instead of accepting it as is, but you've provided no explanation for why that makes sense.

By maximum amount I meant the scan that that has the highest referenced amount.

You're suggesting that if two scans have different numbers we should automatically take the higher numbered scan. Why? If two pieces of information contradicy each other, why automatically take the higher number? Especially if there's more scans to support the lower number?

I know. That's why I corrected you.

This response makes no sense and ignores a very serious gaping hole in your infinite universes theory. It was said that there were only six universes. Not six "known." Likewise, World Forger explicitly said the previously infinite multiverse was now 52 universes. How does that make sense if it's still infinite? Can you explain this hole in your interpretation, or do you accept that it's wrong?

 

[Deagonx]

World Forger literally refers to the infinite multiverse in the past tense.

You've ran away from the discussion every time this scan is presented. I take it you're going to do the same now, because it absolutely destroys your "infinite universes for Perpetua" theory.

 

[Antvasima]

@Musaabu02

Permanently stop derailing important threads with stupid nonsense posts. I have warned you about this several times previously, so if you continue, I will likely have to ban you.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, given that Xearsay's arguments have been debunked, I still think that we should close this thread.

 

[Xearsay]

Anyway, given that Xearsay's arguments have been debunked, I still think that we should close this thread.

Lol what??? How did Deagonx debunk my arguments? And I hope you don’t believe that because I decided to stop responding that he was the better arguer. Because that’s not a reason.

 

[Antvasima]

Mainly the issue regarding that we should follow the most prominent Morrison/Snyder cosmology regarding the explicit currently used scale of the Bleed for DC Comics as a whole.

 

[Xearsay]

Mainly the issue regarding that we should follow the most prominent Morrison/Snyder cosmology regarding the explicit currently used scale of the Bleed for DC Comics as a whole.

It’s not Morrison or Snyder’s cosmology. It’s DC’s cosmology. Morrison and Snyder are just writers who worked on it like every other writer. Granted they might have worked on it a lot more, however that doesn’t mean they own a cosmology. You’re acting like DC doesn’t have editors who edit what the writers create so it’s fit into continuity. Also Deagon literally presented scans which would again support 1-B bleed space in his own argument lol. So even if you for some reason rejected the ones I gave, by accepting his you’re literally supporting 1-B bleed regardless.

 

[Xearsay]

His only other argument is literally the 52 universe thing which has been debunked in his Perpetua downgrade thread. Meaning you’re literally promoting an argument that the vast majority of people already called out for being blatantly wrong.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I'm far more inclined to agree with Deagonx.

 

[Deagonx]

Also Deagon literally presented scans which would again support 1-B bleed space in his own argument lol.

Which scans, and how?

His only other argument is literally the 52 universe thing which has been debunked in his Perpetua downgrade thread

You never even responded to the argument in the Perpetua thread. I had to ask the same questions over and over and then you abandoned the discussion before ever answering and then the thread got locked due to Matthew's flaming and derailing.

You never provided a response to the fact that World Forger refers to the infinite multiverse in the past tense and said it reduced to merely 52.

Lol what??? How did Deagonx debunk my arguments?

You failed to provide any coherent reasoning or argument for most of your stances and dipped and dodged when presented with the inconsistencies, and then abandoned the discussion calling me a troll and insulting me.

 

[Xearsay]

The snowflake one.

Lol everyone responded to your arguments in the Perpetua. You just up being in denial. He’s literally referring to how the Multiverse was reset. And those 52 were clarified as the known ones.

No I provided clear reasoning. And don’t misinterpret my intentions. I drew myself out the discussion because you were trying to rehash the same argument that you debunked on in the Perpetua thread. And I’m not about to go back and forth with you over the same stuff we argued over last time.

 

[Xearsay]

I'm far more inclined to agree with Deagonx.

Any particular reason?

 

[Deagonx]

The snowflake one

How?

He’s literally referring to how the Multiverse was reset. And those 52 were clarified as the known ones.

This isn't a response, you saying "those 52 were the known ones" is just repeating your original stance. You haven't explained why World Forger would refer to the infinite multiverse in the past tense if it was still infinite, and you provided no explanation for why Perpetua or World Forger or anyone else would refer to "known universes."

World Forger literally said "What had been infinite was contained to 52 universes." This makes literally 0 sense in your theory, which is why your theory can't be correct as it contradicts with the description of the progression of the multiverse as described by one of its main creators.

The fact that the Monitors considered them "known" does not automatically apply to beings above them. It makes literally no sense for the mother of the Multiverse to refer to universes in terms of known and unknown, and you've repeatedly failed to respond to that.

And I’m not about to go back and forth with you over the same stuff we argued over last time

Once again, you never responded to the main problems, you simply repeated your stances without addressing the inconsistencies, and now you're using it as an excuse to run from the argument, pretending you already had a discussion that you didnt.

Your theory is full of holes you can't fill.

 

[Xearsay]

Because it’s a 196,833 dimensional space?

Yes it is a response. You’re literally trying to tell me what was established as the 52 known worlds is the total sum universes within the DC Multievrse despite multiple statements referencing those 52 to be only the known worlds. While also ignoring all the other scans supporting a much higher amount or infinite. Which tells me that you’re downplaying.

Because even if there was a single contradiction, it wouldn’t out number the amount fo scans supporting the exact opposite.

 

[Deagonx]

Because it’s a 196,833 dimensional space

How does that make it 1-B? This is exactly what I'm talking about, we are 3 comments in and you've literally explained nothing about why this evidence supports your point.

You’re literally trying to tell me what was established as the 52 known worlds is the total sum universes within the DC

Yes, because the creators of the multiverse literally said that was the case, and never called them "known" and in character have no reason that you've been able to provide about why they'd mention the known universes rather than simply referring to all of the universes.

despite multiple statements referencing those 52 to be only the known worlds.

You've only provided the single scan from Chibi Batman, and what the fragments of Mar Novu consider "known" does not automatically apply to Perpetua and World Forger without any reason. Plus this interpretations breaks the story and makes several statements from the characters nonsensical, and is therefore wrong.

While also ignoring all the other scans supporting an infinite or much high amount. Which tells me that you’re downplaying.

You've ignored literally over a dozen scans explicitly limiting the multiverse to a finite number, all from main storylines with headlining DC authors, in favor of two vague scans which don't even actually say what you claim, from obscure storylines. Which tells me you're wanking.

Even if there was an inconsistency, it wouldn’t out number the amount fo scans supporting the exact opposite.

As demonstrated, there are far more scans opposing your view than supporting it. Like more than triple. Likewise the quality of those scans is higher, they are far more direct and explicit in supporting the interpretation I've provided, where yours are vague and require jumping through logical hoops to reach the theory you provide.

 

[Xearsay]

Because a 196,833 dimensional space which is beyond a 12 dimensional universal model.

Lol one statement? Meanwhile.

President Superman referencing the 52 as the known worlds

Again

Batman reading the Monitor guide book

And no. It makes perfect sense. Granted there might be one inconsistency. However it’s a lot better than yours interpretation which involves literally cutting out dozens of scans to push a narrative that already got rejected.

 

[Zensum]

I just wanted to point out The Snowflake from Planetary just contains 196k parallel universes. They’re called dimensions at first but we see later it’s just an array of universes.

 

[Deagonx]

Because a 196,833 dimensional space which is beyond a 12 dimensional universal model.

Okay? I never asserted 12, I assert finite. 28 contradicts 5 which contradicts 196,833 which contradicts innumerable. There's no specific reason to take innumerable especially since nothing about it implies spatial, and it actually implies the opposite.

Lol one statement? Meanwhile.

Yes. You hadn't provided these scans in literally any discussion here prior to this.

Granted there might be one inconsistency

There's several inconsistencies.

However it’s a lot better than yours interpretation which involves literally cutting out dozens of scans to push a narrative that already got rejected

Are you projecting or something? I'm the one with dozens of scans, from far more credible sources.

My interpretation doesn't actually require cutting out any scans at all. The fact that President Superman and the Monitors of Nil considered the 52 world's "known" just means they considered the possibility of more, but never found them. Perpetua and World Forger saying it's only 52 confirms it. There's no scan in recent DC canon which says there are infinite universes, and over twenty that say otherwise.

They’re called dimensions at first but we see later it’s just an array of universes.

Thanks. Do you have the scans for that?

 

[Zensum]

Thanks. Do you have the scans for that?

X You can argue it's inconsistent, but the DC/Planetary event wouldn't make any sense if they were higher dimensions and what not.

 

[Deagonx]

Thanks for the scan, that proves it pretty much definitively.

 

[Xearsay]

I never said you did assert 12. You asked for a reason the scans would be 1-B and I gave you that. Even the other scans like 28, 12 and a third, are also 1-B. Which means all you’re doing is proving my point further. Also 28 are only the known ones by the New Gods. Implying there could still be more beyond the 28. So as of now there's literally 0 contradictions LOL.

You have references to the 52 universes which have been already clarified as the known universes and that’s it. You can keep ignoring this all you want but it doesn’t get you anywhere. Also Perpetua never saids there’s only 52 universes in the entire DC multiverse.

Lol I don’t know why you’re saying thanks. You’re the one who initially brought up that scan and tried to use it as evidence.

 

[Deagonx]

I never said you did assert 12

Then why are you even bringing up that it's "beyond 12?"

You asked for a reason the scans would be 1-B and I gave you that.

You never explained the reason why. You simply said they were 1-B and never justified it.

Even the other scans like 28, 12 and a third, are also 1-B

How? You keep not explaining your position, so why should anyone listen to it?

Also 28 are only the known ones by the New Gods.

Not according to Darkseid.

So as of now there's literally 0 contradictions LOL.

Except the scan that says there are 14, or the scan that says there are only 5? Right.

You have references to the 52 universes which have been already clarified as the known universes and that’s it

You are just restating your position again. How many times are you going to run from this argument? You aren't addressing any of the inconsistencies or even attempting to debate in good faith. Every time you are presented with reasons your theory doesn't make sense, you just restate your theory instead of responding to any of the arguments.

There's no reason why Perpetua would have an interest in "known" universes, you haven't explained that. You haven't explained why World Forger would refer to the infinite multiverse in the past tense. You haven't addressed the fact that if it's still infinite World Forger's statement makes no sense, and Perpetua's plan makes no sense. You haven't addressed the scan that said there were only 6 universes left, not infinite, in the multiverse when Perpetua and TDK fought.

Also Perpetua never saids there’s only 52 universes in the entire DC multiverse.

Said* and yes she did. "There were 52 universes in this perversion of my multiverse. Now there are 51." You're suggesting Perpetua is wrong about this somehow, and that there are actually infinite. Likewise, it was said that there are only 6 left when TDK and Perpetua fight. and BWL said only 8 remain. All of these disprove your theory completely.

Lol I don’t know why you’re saying thanks. You’re the one who initially brought up that scan and tried to use it as evidence.

Why wouldn't I thank someone for providing thorough information? The only purpose of bringing it up was to give examples of contradiction dimensional info. Now we know it's not about spatial dimensions.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Composite DC cosmology no good. Also, even though DeagonX made that one thread abour perpetua, I have to agree with him on this one.

 

[Xearsay]

Because that's the reason it would be 1-B since it surpasses the universal model of 12 dimensions.

Not according to Darkseid.

Yeah right. It's according to Metron LOL. You clearly didn't even read the blog you ripped this from. Also you realize 28 dimensions being only the known one's includes 14 and 5 right?

If anyone's repeating stuff it's you who's peddling the same false information you got debunked on a while ago. I'm not wasting time replying individually to your clumps of nonsense. I can bring up multiple scans supporting that the DCU surpasses 52 universes are you're going to try and tell me with a straight face that only 52 universes exist because World Forger mentioned the 52 known universes.

 

[Deagonx]

Because that's the reason it would be 1-B since it surpasses the universal model of 12 dimensions.

Why is this 1-B? Nothing about this is said in the tiering system. These spatial dimensions aren't higher infinities.

Yeah right. It's according to Metron LOL. You clearly didn't even read the blog you ripped this from.

Darkseid also mentioned 28, he didn't call them known.

the known one's includes 14 and 5 right?

If someone says "existence consists of 14 dimensions" then that contradicts there being 28 unless we simply consider the person saying 14 is wrong or uninformed. This clearly isn't the case with Mxy.

I can bring up multiple scans supporting that the DCU surpasses 52 universes

I can bring up triple the amount saying there are only 52.

you're going to try and tell me with a straight face that only 52 universes exist because World Forger mentioned the 52 known universes

No. World Forger didn't mention the 52 known universes. He said the infinite multiverse reduced to 52, which makes no sense if there are still infinite. Likewise, you've never even attempted to explain why he'd categorize the multiverse in those terms and talk about it like that. Same with Perpetua.

Likewise, there were two scans saying "only 8 universes left" and "only 6 universes left" as Perpetua whittled down the multiverse. These make no sense if it's infinite, and you've failed to address why Perpetua would care to being up which universes are known or not, or why for some reason she would specifically destroy the known universes out of infinite, or why somehow in your theory we should insert "known" into dozens of scans that don't say known, because the Monitors only knew of 52.

Youve done the same thing again just now, not even attempting to justify or explain the inconsistencies in your theories. That's why you've been debunked so many times.

 

[Planck69]

Surpassing the universe model for 12 dimensions is pretty vague. Do we have any indication that these dimensions are spatial and non-trivial in size?

The 196,883 dimensions are just parallel universes.

The closest thing would be the Rama Kushna statement but I'll try to look into it in a bit.

 

[Xearsay]

Surpassing the universe model for 12 dimensions is pretty vague. Do we have any indication that these dimensions are spatial and non-trivial in size?

The 196,883 dimensions are just parallel universes.

The closest thing would be the Rama Kushna statement but I'll try to look into it in a bit.

Only for the Rama Kushna one. The other scans weren’t even brought up in my post or initially by me so I’m not gonna defend those.

 

[Deagonx]

The closest thing would be the Rama Kushna statement but I'll try to look into it in a bit.

So I pointed this out earlier in the thread, but yeah there's no reason to interpret them as spatial. There's actually pretty decent reasoning based on her phrasing to indicate that it's not spatial, because she says "there are innumerable dimensions, this one is two steps removed from your own." Which proves it's not a spatial dimension, since she refers to their location as a singular dimension.

 

[Planck69]

One could interpret that as meaning being two levels of existence above the regular multiverse though. Dimensions aren't the only way to get to Tier 1.

That said, I'll try to look into the context more.

 

[Deagonx]

One could interpret that as meaning being two levels of existence above the regular multiverse though

It could, but the problem is we have no context for what type of dimensions she's referring to. The scan is from DC Universe Presents Vol 1 #2, but reading the full issue doesn't really illuminate anything. The Rama Kushna/dimensionality portion is very brief and dimensions aren't referred to again after she makes that statement. In the blog PotM says "While in a limbo between life and death that she says has five spatial dimensions..." but wherever he got that from isn't the same issue, so I don't know if it's accurate or not. It's not in the first issue, either, when Rama Kushna explains Deadman's predicament to him.

 

[Planck69]

Well, I checked and you're right. Nothing is elaborated at all.

If that was the only solid piece of evidence for 1-B then I'll have to disagree with this.

 

[Xearsay]

Well, I checked and you're right. Nothing is elaborated at all.

If that was the only solid piece of evidence for 1-B then I'll have to disagree with this.

Well there is an author clarification on Twitter where he calls them higher dimensions.

There’s also the 12, 1/3 statement.

 

[Deagonx]

Well there is an author clarification on Twitter where he calls them higher dimensions.

Sure, but as explained, higher dimensions aren't necessarily spatial, so this doesn't change anything. Supernatural realms can be called higher dimensions, which is most likely what Rama Kushna is referring to based on what she said.

There’s also the 12, 1/3 statement.

And again, spatial dimensions aren't necessarily higher infinities especially if they don't encompass an infinite space.

 

[Planck69]

Well there is an author clarification on Twitter where he calls them higher dimensions. There’s also the 12, 1/3 statement.

Ignoring how I'm very skeptical of such a huge revision being based on a single affirmative on Twitter, that really doesn't tell me too much about them being transcendent of each other. Maybe you can ask other staff to judge that.

And like I said before, do we have any confirmation of what these 12 dimensions even are?

 

[Xearsay]

Ignoring how I'm very skeptical of such a huge revision being based on a single affirmative on Twitter, that really doesn't tell me too much about them being transcendent of each other. Maybe you can ask other staff to judge that.

And like I said before, do we have any confirmation of what these 12 dimensions even are?

Well the Twitter statement just technically clarifies what’s trying to be conveyed in the scan. And about how transcendent each dimension is. We’d presume each is infinitely greater based off the evidence for how Mxy who is a fifth dimensional imp works.

 

[Deagonx]

And about how transcendent each dimension is. We’d presume each is infinitely greater based off the evidence for how Mxy’s dimension work.

Why are these dimensions being equated to Mxy's?