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Bleed is 5D (DC Comics)

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wait if i was arguing that the bleed is 5D spatially that would mean its 6D because time right??
so bleed is 5D if we include time
 
If Ultima's proposal of each Earth in the Orrery being 2-A went through it would qualify for Low 1-C imo

if its the space between individual 4-D universes it would be qualitatively superior
 
To be clear, the 4-D vision that Zillo gave Superman was explicitly a metaphor for metafictional vision (I.e. looking at something as fictional from a higher perspective), which should not really be dimensional in nature.

It is also pretty likely that Morrison does not believe that the Bleed is only 4-dimensional, as that the author has wrote many, many instances of higher dimensions in the material world, as well as calling Bleedspace a "Meta-space" with the several instances of it being called "Ultra-spatial" and the such, implying that Bleedspace functions in qualities superior to regular spatial properties, something that is already confirmed when the Bleed is shown housing 5-D objects, which are described as "transgeometrical" a couple of times (trans; surpassing; transcending. Geometrical; relating to geometry, or according to its methods.)
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
To be clear, the 4-D vision that Zillo gave Superman was explicitly a metaphor for metafictional vision (I.e. looking at something as fictional from a higher perspective),
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What is the evidence for this claim? The scan you linked for "metafictional vision" doesn't use that term, it doesn't even use the term "fiction" either. It's just a picture of the 3-D glasses that came with the Superman Beyond book, and the instructions read:

We'll be traveling through Bleed Space between the universes, but you'll need to upgrade to 4-D vision to truly comprehend what you experience. Prepare yourself by wearing these Overvoid viewers forged from Superman's own cosmic armor. Your ability to see 4-D perspective will develop spontaneously when you need it.

This really doesn't support your claim at all, so it's weird that you hyperlinked it to the phrase "metafictional vision" to give the appearance that this theory was supported by a scan. You even used the word "explicitly" which would mean this was actually stated somewhere, when it doesn't seem that it was.
 
Deagonx said:
What is the evidence for this claim? The scan you linked for "metafictional vision" doesn't use that term, it doesn't even use the term "fiction" either. It's just a picture of the 3-D glasses that came with the Superman Beyond book, and the instructions read:

We'll be traveling through Bleed Space between the universes, but you'll need to upgrade to 4-D vision to truly comprehend what you experience. Prepare yourself by wearing these Overvoid viewers forged from Superman's own cosmic armor. Your ability to see 4-D perspective will develop spontaneously when you need it.

This really doesn't support your claim at all, so it's weird that you hyperlinked it to the phrase "metafictional vision" to give the appearance that this theory was supported by a scan. You even used the word "explicitly" which would mean this was actually stated somewhere, when it doesn't seem that it was.
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Do you agree Bleed is 4D spatially but 5D if we include the temporal dimension 🗿
 
Robo432343 said:
Do you agree Bleed is 4D spatially but 5D if we include the temporal dimension 🗿
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I suppose that's probably fine, but I am not sure who scales to it. For instance, I am not eager to think that this adds another layer of QS to every realm outside of the Orrery, especially given that they feed on the bleed in Nil which is entirely metaphysical.
 
The readers also need "4-D vision" just to understand Bleedspace, the readers exist in a higher perspective to the comic, and Superman got that very same vision.

So it's not really 4-D, per se, when it's a higher metafictional perspective to the comic.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
The readers also need "4-D vision" just to understand Bleedspace, the readers exist in a higher perspective to the comic, and Superman got that very same vision.

So it's not really 4-D, per se, when it's a higher metafictional perspective to the comic.
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That's a rather far-fetched extrapolation from the fact that a comic book included 3-D glasses, and it's not really compatible with how DC treats it considering Earth-33. I would reject incorporating this theory into any of our scaling.
 
Deagonx said:
That's a rather far-fetched extrapolation from the fact that a comic book included 3-D glasses, and it's not really compatible with how DC treats it considering Earth-33.
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I'm confused, why would Earth-33 make this scan incompatible with DC
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
why would Earth-33 make this scan incompatible with DC
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It comes down to Grant's vision on the nature of fiction. Much of this is just from his interviews and thus not canon, but some is also reflected in the writing of Earth-33 and the relationship between various universes demonstrated in Multiversity. Fiction isn't portrayed as a layer of infinite power from a higher realm to a lower realm, and we -- the readers -- are thought of as being just as much a part of the multiverse as the fictional characters we are reading. This isn't true, obviously, but that is the portrayal. In Multiversity we saw that even amongst the universes with heroes, they had comic books of the adventures of heroes from other universes and didn't realize they were real until meeting each other due to the Multiversity event. Thus, the instructions on the glasses wouldn't logically correlate to "this vision is that of someone who has R>F to something" because that isn't how the real world is portrayed within the verse.

Now, you needn't necessarily accept that reasoning from me (it's not especially prudent to have that out in this thread at length), because the fact remains that the inclusion of 3-D glasses and connected it to the 4-D vision in the comics is not sufficient to claim that there's a R>F layer involved in the bleed. I would scarcely consider it evidence of anything at all.
 
Deagonx said:
I suppose that's probably fine, but I am not sure who scales to it. For instance, I am not eager to think that this adds another layer of QS to every realm outside of the Orrery, especially given that they feed on the bleed in Nil which is entirely metaphysical.
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i thought if the bleed is 5D, the overvoid would just get bumped to 8D
but that might be a problem
 
To be clear (since there’s been quite some confusion), I need to explain Executor’s reasoning.

By site standards, we recognize any space that contains universes to be insignificantly 5-D, as it allows space-times to be parallel. However, you don’t need to model such a cosmology in a hierarchy where time is the 4th dimension, and the space between timelines is the 5th dimension.

Spatiotemporal separation is determined when a higher dimensional space prevents 3-D spaces from intersecting. Time isn’t actually that relevant of a factor. In other words, multiple space-times can exist under the same axis. This model would have universes modeled as 3-D spaces, distanced by a 4-D space, all of which are serviced by a single (5-D) temporal dimension.

So yeah, the Bleed can be spatially 4-D, 5-D in its entirety when you account for its added temporal dimension, but it wouldn’t be Low 1-C as it’s just insignificantly 5-D unlike the 5th Dimension (since the 4th spatial dimension is insignificant).
 
Deagonx said:
Now, you needn't necessarily accept that reasoning from me
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I do accept it.

However the problem here stems from how I am not really referring to an Earth of the Orrery necessarily, I am referring to the actual real world, or at least, how Grant views it.

The readers supposedly look back on the CAS while it was reaching out towards the page as the instructions describes it, so whatever the real world here is, its beyond Nil entirely, and thus, not really Earth-33. This isn't inconsistent with what Morrison has said in the past, how the Multiversity map represents how the Multiverse looks like from the real world, how the DC Multiverse is a 2-D playground and how the Overvoid is the white page of that Multiverse. This sentiment is also shared in Animal Man when Grant tells Buddy how the real world exists beyond comic book limbo, and that you can't really get into it as a fictional character.

But again, entities with this higher perspective still need this 4-D vision to comprehend Bleedspace, a vision that Superman has. This is not to say that Bleedspace is a higher R>F layer, no. Its to say that 4-D here, is simply just a metaphor for a higher perspective of an entity such as a reader, which wouldn't really be conventionally dimensional in nature.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
The readers supposedly look back on the CAS while it was reaching out towards the page as the instructions describes it, so whatever the real world here is, its beyond Nil entirely, and thus, not really Earth-33.
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This presumes that a comic book represents a layer between a higher reality and a lower one. My point is that this explicitly isn't the case in DC. The real world in this instance just has access to a comic book about Nil. Final Crisis as a comic likely exists on Earth-33.

NHTkenshin2 said:
Its to say that 4-D here, is simply just a metaphor for a higher perspective of an entity such as a reader
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Yeah, I don't think that's justified by the evidence. I consider "the instructions on a disposable pair of 3-D glasses" that came with the comic to be exceptionally low on my hierarchy of evidence, and more importantly the text on the glasses doesn't even make this assertion, it is an extrapolation that I don't agree with in the first place.
 
Robo432343 said:
wait if i was arguing that the bleed is 5D spatially that would mean its 6D because time right??
so bleed is 5D if we include time
Click to expand...
I believe my comment might have been misunderstood. I didn't mean "5D spatially" in the form of 5 spatial dimensions. It's got 4 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension as others said. I just meant the 5th dimension is a spatial dimension. Which means it could be used for a reference point that characters have solid dimensional travel feats or the ability to effect 4 or more spatial dimensions is often used as a reference point for good spatial manipulation hax. But it's more like a proposal for Low 1-C structure is what may still have some doubts.
 
Deagonx said:
This presumes that a comic book represents a layer between a higher reality and a lower one.
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This assumes that I am referring to the connection between the worlds of the Orrery through comic books, I am not. I am referring to something completely beyond DC as a whole, the real world that Buddy can never reach.

Deagonx said:
Yeah, I don't think that's justified by the evidence. I consider "the instructions on a disposable pair of 3-D glasses" that came with the comic to be exceptionally low on my hierarchy of evidence, and more importantly the text on the glasses doesn't even make this assertion, it is an extrapolation that I don't agree with in the first place.
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Well, then that's your opinion so I cannot really argue against that.


What do other people think?
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
I am referring to something completely beyond DC as a whole, the real world that Buddy can never reach.
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Okay. I don't think there's much basis for that, I think you're reading too far into the inclusion of 3-D glasses. We use 3-D glasses to provide a sense of depth in flat images, it adds an additional dimension. In the corresponding scene, Superman is entering a 4-D realm where his vision needs to include another dimension beyond what he is used to. The connection, IMO, is far simpler than what you're imagining.
 
Deagonx said:
Okay. I don't think there's much basis for that, I think you're reading too far into the inclusion of 3-D glasses. We use 3-D glasses to provide a sense of depth in flat images, it adds an additional dimension. In the corresponding scene, Superman is entering a 4-D realm where his vision needs to include another dimension beyond what he is used to. The connection, IMO, is far simpler than what you're imagining.
Click to expand...
The glasses were kinda intended to "put the reader in the comic" by having this 3-D robot Superman reach out towards them and hear them "breathing."

So these glasses, and their instructions were supposed to add on to the story itself. So the idea that the same 4-D vision that Superman had being required to entities such as the readers with a higher perspective on the comic makes it pretty clear that 4-D here isn't really literal.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
The glasses were kinda intended to "put the reader in the comic" by having this 3-D robot Superman reach out towards them and hear them "breathing."

So these glasses, and their instructions were supposed to add on to the story itself. So the idea that the same 4-D vision that Superman had being required to entities such as the readers with a higher perspective on the comic makes it pretty clear that 4-D here isn't really literal.
Click to expand...
I also know there were versions of Superman Beyond in 3-D or something. Allowing people to actually use glasses and see the comic play out from that perspective.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
So the idea that the same 4-D vision that Superman had being required to entities such as the readers with a higher perspective on the comic makes it pretty clear that 4-D here isn't really literal.
Click to expand...
I don't really think it makes it that clear at all. In fact, I think if anything the inclusion of 3-D glasses, of all things, clearly makes it very literal. But I suppose we can agree to disagree.

Xearsay said:
I also know there were version of Superman Beyond in 3-D or something.
Click to expand...
It's why CAS has red and green eyes.
 
I don't even this this sidepoint about the glasses and the 4-D vision even matters.

Superman Beyond is before Multiversity, and Multiversity makes it pretty clear the Bleed is 5th Dimensional.

There's really no way of reconciling Superman Beyond with Multiversity if the position on Superman Beyond is that Morrison considered the Bleed 4-D there. In Multiversity he basically calls it the Fifth Dimension. Just a classic inconsistency, so do we go with prior information in Superman Beyond or more recent information in Multiversity?
 
Antvasima said:
@Elizio33

What are the conclusions here so far?
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The premise of this thread was to tied the Bleed and the Fifth Dimension identically.

The Bleed is the "Bulk" enclosing all brane universes (3 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal dimension), which is only accessible conventionally by moving up through higher dimensions, giving it 5-D properties. But this is not qualitatively superior enough for the Low 1-C rating, the only reasoning for such a tier would be to prove that the Bleed and the Fifth Dimension are indeed the same place, which I think this thread has managed to do.
 
Elizio33 said:
The premise of this thread was to tied the Bleed and the Fifth Dimension identically.

The Bleed is the "Bulk" enclosing all brane universes (3 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal dimension), which is only accessible conventionally by moving up through higher dimensions, giving it 5-D properties. But this is not qualitatively superior enough for the Low 1-C rating, the only reasoning for such a tier would be to prove that the Bleed and the Fifth Dimension are indeed the same place, which I think this thread has managed to do.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply. 🙏

Do you mean "managed to do" or "not managed to do"?
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Going off what I've seen only, the conclusion from Executor is that the Bleed can be considered 5-D in its totality (in the sense that all multiverses are insignificantly 5-D and have 4 spatial dimensions), but only the 5th Dimension still holds qualitative superiority.
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im trying to say that the Bleed IS the fifth dimension 🗿
thats the whole point of the crt
 
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