Perpetua and The Darkest Knight in Multiverse forms upgrade to 1-B.

[Xearsay]

During a battle between TDK and Perpetua that was affecting the entire Multiverse and waging across every facet of reality, Bleed space was said to be falling apart.

And we know that bleed space contains dimensions far surpassing the known 11 with one statement from Rama Kushna even referencing innumerable. Which makes this a 1-B feat.

 

[Cyberblader90]

To be honest they shouldn't even have a weakend state in the Multiverse.

Perpetua doesn't have any confirmation of such a thing, best you can do is say that she should operate like her sons but technically they don't even have the same physiology since they were just born from pieces of the overvoid.

It makes even less sense for Batman who laughs, since his powers are literally just from another version of Dr Manhattan. Dr Manhattan has zero statements or implications of being weakened while in the Multiverse

 

[Xearsay]

To be honest they shouldn't even have a weakend state in the Multiverse.

Perpetua doesn't have any confirmation of such a thing, best you can do is say that she should operate like her sons but technically they don't even have the same physiology since they were just born from pieces of the overvoid.

It makes even less sense for Batman who laughs, since his powers are literally just from another version of Dr Manhattan. Dr Manhattan has zero statements or implications of being weakened while in the Multiverse

This is true and I kind of agree. Although I think Perpetua should have a depowered key only because she wasn’t at her full power throughout most of the story.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Oh I definitely agree she would have a depowered key, just not for being located in the Multiverse

 

[Amakasu]

It's nice. I agree.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Wouldn't this also upgrade The Godheads and Anti-Life Equation?

 

[Xearsay]

Wouldn't this also upgrade The Godheads and Anti-Life Equation?

Yes but we’ll get to them later. Right now it’s best to start with the lower parts of the cosmology first. Then we can work our way up to the Godsphere and all that jazz.

 

[Deagonx]

During a battle between TDK and Perpetua that was affecting the entire Multiverse and waging across every facet of reality

It was explicitly stated that there were only 6 universes left in the Multiverse when this fight occurred.

And we know that bleed space contains dimensions far surpassing the known 11

What does this scan have to do with bleedspace, where is this "far surpassing" coming from, and what comic/issue is that scan from?

with one statement from Rama Kushna even referencing innumerable. Which makes this a 1-B feat.

Only if those are higher spatial dimensions, which there is no evidence of.

 

[Amakasu]

Only if those are higher spatial dimensions, which there is no evidence of.

Here. And those are indeed considered higher dimensions in the wiki.

 

[BoomBoomMan535]

During a battle between TDK and Perpetua that was affecting the entire Multiverse and waging across every facet of reality, Bleed space was said to be falling apart.

And we know that bleed space contains dimensions far surpassing the known 11 with one statement from Rama Kushna even referencing innumerable. Which makes this a 1-B feat.

I completely agree

 

[Deagonx]

Here.

"Higher dimensions" aren't necessarily higher spatial dimensions, and there's many other scans from DC which put a hard number on how many spatial dimensions there are, there's no reason we should highball it to the one scan that says "innumerable" without context.

 

[Amakasu]

"Higher dimensions" aren't necessarily higher spatial dimensions,

In this context they do mean spatial dimension, that's what the tweets means if you read more, and the comic itself indicates it to be higher Dimensions with things acting differently and it dosen't even matter because innumerable Dimensions for dc has been accepted.

and there's many other scans from DC which put a hard number on how many spatial dimensions there are, there's no reason we should highball it to the one scan that says "innumerable" without context.

Like the scan itself makes it pretty blatent that it's higher spatial dimensions rather than pararel Universes, lol. And those finite statements are from characters who are not omniscient so them stating there are these amounts of Dimensions is just from their perspective and not a contradiction. I also don't understand why you are rejecting this when the wiki has already accepted it?

 

[Deagonx]

In this context they do mean spatial dimension

What is this based on? What context?

that's what the tweets means if you read more

Read more of what? Was Paul Jenkins even the author of that scan? What comic is it from?

it dosen't even matter because innumerable Dimensions for dc has been accepted.

Dimensions and spatial dimensions aren't the same thing, and a limited number of spatial dimensions has been stated for DC numerous times. Most recently in Snyder's run he said there were only 3 spatial dimensions, 1 temporal dimensions, Imagination (Fifth) and the Sixth Dimension.

Like the scan itself makes it pretty blatent that it's higher spatial dimensions rather than pararel Universes, lol.

I didn't say it was parallel universes, but how is it "pretty blatant?" Your personal sense of intuition isn't a source here.

And those finite statements are from characters who are not omniscient so them stating there are these amounts of Dimensions is just from their perspective and not a contradiction.

Rama Kushna is not omniscient, and the scans I am talking about come from characters like Metron and Mr. Mxyzpltk, not randoms.

I also don't understand why you are rejecting this when the wiki has already accepted it?

The wiki accepting something doesn't make it fact. How many revisions has the wiki gone through? How many times has an "accepted" concept later been changed? That's what CRTs are for, revising content.

 

[Xearsay]

there's no reason we should highball it to the one scan that says "innumerable" without context.

Because that's simply not what we do? We don't take the lowest end interpretation and disregard all the other contradictory information. We take the highest end interpretation available. Which is the statement referencing innumerable.

 

[Sandman31]

The 11 dimension scan, I'm pretty sure is from Our Worlds at War storyline. Th context, if I remember correctly was about the process of Hollowing by Imperiex

2nd scan about dimensions is from DC Universe Presents #2 by Paul Jenkins.

 

[Deagonx]

We don't take the lowest end interpretation and disregard all the other contradictory information. We take the highest end interpretation available.

Who is "we?" And why would we take "the highest end interpretation available" when it relies on a single vaguely worded scan and ignores several other clearly worded scans that contradict that interpretation? You're the one "disregarding all other contradictory information" in pursuit of highballing. Do you seek to actually understand these stories and the power levels they display? Or is your aim to simply try and portray DC as powerfully as possible, accuracy be damned? I prefer accuracy.

Thanks @Sandman31.

 

[Amakasu]

What is this based on? What context?

Like the guy asks about spatial dimensions and the author says yes and these higher Dimensions in this context means higher spatial dimensions.

Read more of what? Was Paul Jenkins even the author of that scan? What comic is it from?

Dc universe presents

Dimensions and spatial dimensions aren't the same thing, and a limited number of spatial dimensions has been stated for DC numerous times. Most recently in Snyder's run he said there were only 3 spatial dimensions, 1 temporal dimensions, Imagination (Fifth) and the Sixth Dimension.

Synder himself has said that those Dimensions he referenced are not actually physical dimensions, and myx says the first dimension is a point and the second is a line, third is matter, 4th is time, 5th is imagination and the 6th Dimension is the realm of perpetua. The first dimension is not a point but a line, the second is a square so it's wrong on the first two dimensions and matter is not a Mathematical dimension. Synder elaborated more on what the 4th dimension is in his interview with imaginary axis.
28:31
talking about dimensions (asked about 6th)
29:51 gets cut off but makes a conclusion saying "dimensions" aren't the same as dimentionality, meaning 4th dimension isn't 4D
it then cuts to him saying the 4th dimension is relative to the gods (he combining time and hypertime or timestream)

I didn't say it was parallel universes, but how is it "pretty blatant?" Your personal sense of intuition isn't a source here.

Like, the text itself makes it pretty blatent. "Time is no longer an abstract here" so it's definitely not a pararel Universes and the author himself clears it by saying it's a higher dimension.

Rama Kushna is not omniscient, and the scans I am talking about come from characters like Metron and Mr. Mxyzpltk, not randoms.

When did I claim she is? I just used that to say each character can say whatever they want and be right in their own because from their perspective they see things differently. I can say the Universe has 4 dimensions and another guy from another plane of existence than mine says there are infinte dimensions, technically my words are not wrong as from my perceptive there are 4 Dimensions and from another being there are infinte. I already explained those "Dimensions" aren't a counter.

The wiki accepting something doesn't make it fact. How many revisions has the wiki gone through? How many times has an "accepted" concept later been changed? That's what CRTs are for, revising content.

Because this isn't a thread associated with that. This is a ctr made for bwl and perpetua and not talking about Dimensions.

 

[Amakasu]

Also, going to sleep for now, I'll talk later.

 

[Deagonx]

Like the guy asks about spatial dimensions and the author says yes and these higher Dimensions in this context means higher spatial dimensions.

Where? The tweet you posted a screenshot of didn't have the word "spatial" in it anywhere.

Synder himself has said that those Dimensions he referenced are not actually physical dimensions,

Sure, in reference to the 5th and 6th.

gets cut off but makes a conclusion saying "dimensions" aren't the same as dimentionality, meaning 4th dimension isn't 4D

Right, because the 4th dimension isn't spatial, it's temporal. It's not like a tesseract or something.

and myx says the first dimension is a point and the second is a line, third is matter, 4th is time, 5th is imagination and the 6th Dimension is the realm of perpetua. The first dimension is not a point but a line, the second is a square so it's wrong on the first two dimensions and matter is not a Mathematical dimension.

The scientific accuracy isn't terribly important when the text is clearly trying to convey a limited 3 spatial dimensions.

When did I claim she is?

You tried to counter my argument by pointing out that the sources of this information aren't omniscient. Why does that matter if your own source isn't omniscient?

I can say the Universe has 4 dimensions and another guy from another plane of existence than mine says there are infinte dimensions, technically my words are not wrong as from my perceptive there are 4 Dimensions and from another being there are infinte. I already explained those "Dimensions" aren't a counter.

There's no reason why Rama Kushna would be aware of thousands more spatial dimensions than someone like Metron or Mxyzpltk.

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx makes sense to me.

 

[Amakasu]

Where? The tweet you posted a screenshot of didn't have the word "spatial" in it anywhere.

Damn that was fast AF. Last reply then? The word "spatial" is not required for authors to consider it a higher dimension. In Fiction it's multiple times shown that you can not put spatial dimensions in the text and still mean it.

Sure, in reference to the 5th and 6th.

No, it meant he dosen't treat Dimensions as physical, he's not talking only about the 5th and the 6th. The 3rd Dimension is not considered matter by physics.

Right, because the 4th dimension isn't spatial, it's temporal. It's not like a tesseract or something.

No, he's not talking about temporal Dimensions, he's talking about planes of existence.

The scientific accuracy isn't terribly important when the text is clearly trying to convey a limited 3 spatial dimensions.

It is. Like even a kid who has learned proper physics can tell you a point isn't the first Dimension or that the 3rd Dimension isn't matter. It's common sense that synder himself is not applying actual Mathematical Dimensions in this context.

You tried to counter my argument by pointing out that the sources of this information aren't omniscient. Why does that matter if your own source isn't omniscient?

Because you said Rama kushina isn't omniscient which I thought you meant I think of her as omniscience. I'm sorry if I'm taking this out of context.

There's no reason why Rama Kushna would be aware of thousands more spatial dimensions than someone like Metron or Mxyzpltk.

Because she's a being from the godsphere like metron and myx ain't talking about normal Dimensions.

 

[Deagonx]

The word "spatial" is not required for authors to consider it a higher dimension. In Fiction it's multiple times shown that you can not put spatial dimensions in the text and still mean it.

That's fine, I'm not claiming the word spatial has to be there, but you have no reason to interpret it as spatial. Higher dimensions aren't necessarily extraspatial in nature.

No, it meant he dosen't treat Dimensions as physical, he's not talking only about the 5th and the 6th. The 3rd Dimension is not considered matter by physics.

By saying the 3rd dimension is matter, he is clearly referring to the fact that matter only begins to be capable of existence in a 3 dimensional space, since a 2 dimension space can't have objects.

No, he's not talking about temporal Dimensions, he's talking about planes of existence.

The 4th dimension is temporal, Mxy stated this explicitly.

Like even a kid who has done proper physics can tell you a point isn't the first Dimension or that the 3rd Dimension isn't matter

I'm not debating whether or not the description is accurate, I'm saying that the intent of those statements is clear.

Because she's a being from the godsphere like metron and myx ain't talking about normal Dimensions.

Why would her being from the Godsphere necessitate that she knows more than Metron? If Metron says 28, and Rama Kushna says "innumerable" then why would we necessarily take Rama Kushna over Metron? And Mxy is indeed talking about regular dimensions for the first 4.

 

[Sandman31]

Just gonna comment on the dimension bit. I agree with Deagonx there.

Matter is not the 3rd dimension, it is however an example of a 3D object. Matter is 3D by definition, it has mass, volume and energy. A line is not the 1st dimension, it is however an example of a 1 dimensional figure/object same thing here

 

[Xearsay]

Who is "we?" And why would we take "the highest end interpretation available" when it relies on a single vaguely worded scan and ignores several other clearly worded scans that contradict that interpretation?

Because that's the highest amount we've given. Meaning at a maximum there are innumerable dimensions.

You're the one "disregarding all other contradictory information" in pursuit of highballing.

I'm not disregarding any other information. I directly acknowledge in my post another scan that references a different amount.

Do you seek to actually understand these stories and the power levels they display?

Of course I do.

 

[Deagonx]

Because that's the highest amount we've given.

Okay? That's circular logic. Why is the highest amount more important than multiple scans that say it's lower, especially if the "higher" scan doesn't even actually specify that these dimensions are what you claim they are?

I directly acknowledge in my post another scan that references a different amount

Sure, but you oh so conveniently leave it at one scan which refers to them as "known" and have left out the scans that give a hard number instead of a "known" number. Without explaining what comic it's from or who the source of that information is.

Of course I do.

Your actions say otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx and Sandman31 make good sense here. We should preferably close this thread, and not pointlessly waste further time and energy on it.

 

[Xearsay]

Deagonx and Sandman31 make good sense here. We should preferably close this thread, and not pointlessly waste further time and energy on it.

Close it for what exactly? Only one person disagreed and that's Deagon. The same guy who tried to downgrade 90% of DC to universal or below. If you consider Deagonx's disagreement enough to close this thread than you're openly being biased.

 

[Deagonx]

Close it for what exactly?

The main basis is a scan that doesn't say "spatial" dimensions, and there are far more direct pieces of evidence limiting that number to a specific finite amount. Even if Rama Kushna had said spatial, this would be a uphill argument given that it's such an outlier description. The fact that she doesn't even say spatial makes this discussion moot.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @Planck69

Are you willing to help out here please?

 

[Xearsay]

The main basis is a scan that doesn't say "spatial" dimensions, and there are far more direct pieces of evidence limiting that number to a specific finite amount. Even if Rama Kushna had said spatial, this would be a uphill argument given that it's such an outlier description. The fact that she doesn't even say spatial makes this discussion moot.

I never said the scan did say it was spatial. Nor does it need to.

Also you haven't proven there's a contradicting for an innumerable dimension dc. You just said there was one and gave 0 scans or references to prove it.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, Rama Kushna did not mention anything about the Bleed in that scan (from an obscure/comparatively unofficial story that nobody else has referenced as far as I am aware).

 

[Antvasima]

Also, the other scan is from the Our Worlds at War crossover event, and it did not reference the Bleed in any way either.

 

[Xearsay]

Why would any of those scans need to reference the bleed for us to know they exist in bleed space?

 

[Antvasima]

Because as far as I have been told, Bleed space is generally considered to be spatially + temporally 5-dimensional nowadays, and it is perfectly possible for spatial and temporal dimensions within the greater multiverse to transcend it.

 

[Xearsay]

Because as far as I have been told, Bleed space is generally considered to be spatially + temporally 5-dimensional nowadays, and it is perfectly possible for spatial and temporal dimensions within the greater multiverse to transcend it.

The thing is, it's never established that 5 is the maximum amount of dimensions in bleed space. Matter of fact the maximum amount of Dimensions in DC is never established anywhere. So I don't understand how you can conclude that and ignore all the scans mentioning an amount higher than this.

The only thing ever mentioned is that DC is layered well beyond the known 12 and third. Which is still grounds for 1-B. There is also that statement from the Wildstorm reality about a 196,833 dimensional space. Which is also 1-B.

 

[Deagonx]

I never said the scan did say it was spatial.

This was never in question. But you are saying it means spatial.

Nor does it need to.

Sure, it could not say spatial and still mean spatial, if there was explicit context supporting that. Example, when Metron referenced a higher number of dimensions, he said "six-dimensional space" and said "your three-dimensional mind" to his companion. The problem is, nothing about what Rama Kushna says even lightly implies that the dimensions are spatial, and upon close inspection actually implies the opposite is more likely.

Her saying "this one exists two steps removed from yours" suggests the dimensions aren't spatial. You wouldn't occupy a single dimension, we occupy as humans three dimensions at once. There's no reason for her to refer to "this one" if they're in a higher dimensional space.

Also you haven't proven there's a contradicting for an innumerable dimension dc.

Christopher Kent states existence contains 14 dimensions, not three, clearly referencing the 3 spatial dimensions.

Darkseid says there are 28

And of course, the infamous 196,833 dimensional space scan.

The thing is, it's never established that 5 is the maximum amount of dimensions in bleed space.

It is said that the bleed space rotates around the fifth dimension.

Matter of fact the maximum amount of Dimensions in DC is never established anywhere.

Why would we discuss a "maximum amount" rather than an establish amount? The number isn't theoretical, it's not a graph or something.

Which is still grounds for 1-B.

How? A higher dimensional space isn't "higher infinities" particularly if there isn't a base infinity to begin with. The DC Multiverse was distinctly finite during the fight between TDK and Perpetua, this is stated directly on panel.

 

[Elizio33]

Personally, I think that Low 1-C is fine for the weakened state of Perpetua. Her battle against the Darkest Knight was tearing Bleedspace (The Bleedspace rotates through the 5th Dimension) and Perpetua's actions broke Hypertime.

So Low 1-C is fine.

 

[Xearsay]

Obviously we don’t occupy one dimension but what she means is the dimension there in exist two steps from his native dimensionality. Being that he is three dimensional.

And of course, the infamous 196,833 dimensional space scan.

There can be a 196,833 dimensional space and also innumerable dimensions.

Why would we discuss a "maximum amount" rather than an establish amount? The number isn't theoretical, it's not a graph or something.

Because there’s multiple established amounts that can all fall under the maximum amount. So to be fair it’s best to simply take the maximum amount.

How? A higher dimensional space isn't "higher infinities" particularly if there isn't a base infinity to begin with. The DC Multiverse was distinctly finite during the fight between TDK and Perpetua, this is stated directly on panel.

The local Multiverse of 52 known universes was finite sure. I don’t know what that has to do with the rest of the cosmology.

 

[Xearsay]

Personally, I think that Low 1-C is fine for the weakened state of Perpetua. Her battle against the Darkest Knight was tearing Bleedspace (The Bleedspace rotates through the 5th Dimension) and Perpetua's actions broke Hypertime.

So Low 1-C is fine.

The problem is that there’s more scans supporting a 1-B bleed than a low 1-C bleed.

 

[Elizio33]

The problem is that there’s more scans supporting a 1-B bleed than a low 1-C bleed.

True but Low 1-C Bleed is from Grant Morrison's cosmology (Bleedspace rotating through the 5th Dimension stuffs) and Scott Snyder mostly based his cosmology on Morrison's. So Low 1-C is much more accurate to me.