One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #9

[RexofLM]

Reminder that we are only using three times as a lowball several could be up to 10x

 

[Stefano4444]

Who suggested multiplying Gear 2 for Gear 4?

Isn't what we're basically going to do if the multiplier is applied in the way you're suggesting?

Aka the Gear 4th Multiplier its used on Gear 2nd Luffy, without the Gear 3rd since you stated that Doffy was only comparing Gear 4th and Gear 2nd, instead of Gear 4th and Gear 3rd.

 

[Damage3245]

@Stefano: I think you have misunderstood me. I didn't say that Doffy was comparing Gear 2 and Gear 4 at all.

 

[Stefano4444]

@Stefano: I think you have misunderstood me. I didn't say that Doffy was comparing Gear 2 and Gear 4 at all.

I think to understand now, you were referring to how Luffy's Kong Gun work by compress his arm like a spring.

http://f13.readermanga.com/60/837303d26a86f3/77.webp?token=uXIN1TmGBVFWw2l4SiM9Rg&expires=1564790399

http://f13.readermanga.com/59/837306fd49fdb8/78.webp?token=ROgVBjfD70kwHm1pXs-WAw&expires=1564790399

Its this you're argument? That Doffy was referring to that specific action instead of the Gear 3rd?

 

[Damage3245]

@Stefano; essentially, yes.

Picture Luffy's Boundman state as his new base form with its own limits of strength. By compressing his fist into his arm (or his feet into his legs) he is using the tensile strength to increase the power of his attacks.

He isn't using the tensile strength to increase the power of his Gear 3 attacks.

 

[Stefano4444]

Ok, let me get this straight.

This is what Calaca is proposing:

Gear 2nd (at least 838.527 MTs) < Gear 3rd < Gear 4th (3 multiplier).

This is what you are proposing:

Gear 2nd (at least 838.527 MTs) < Gear 3rd < Gear 4th (normal strength) < Gear 4th (tensile strength, 3 multiplier).

 

[Xulrev]

@Damage

That explanation makes perfect sense, actually. He simply uses the tensile strength to go beyond his (ordinary, non-fist-sucked-into-arm) striking limit.

Hadn't though of it that way.

 

[Damage3245]

@Stefano; not quite.

I would say it as this:

Gear 2nd (At least 838.527 MTs) < Gear 3rd < Gear 4th

We have no information on Luffy's ordinary striking strength without using the compression to enhance his power. I don't think we can compare it to his previous Gears.

 

[Stefano4444]

We have no information on Luffy's ordinary striking strength without using the compression to enhance his power. I don't think we can compare it to his previous Gears.

Considering that most if not all Gear 4th Luffy's offensive techniques use compression to enhance his physical strikes, does really matter if we don't know Luffy's ordinary without compression?

 

[Damage3245]

Considering that most if not all Gear 4th Luffy's offensive techniques use compression so to enhance his physical strikes, does really matter if we don't know Luffy's ordinary without compression?

It doesn't - which is why the multiplier shouldn't factor into determining his rating.

All we need to know is that Luffy's attacks with Gear 4 are more powerful than his attacks in Gear 3.

 

[Js250476]

Only one that doesn't require compression is Culveri

 

[Damage3245]

Only one that doesn't require compression is Culveri

That one requires compression as well. We can see it when Luffy does his Jet Culverin, and when he does the Double Culverin.

 

[The_Calaca]

Right, go ahead, dismiss Gear 3rd as Luffy's limit.

Don't complain if I call that headcanon tho.

 

[Js250476]

The singular version didn't tho but this hardly matters anyway.

 

[Damage3245]

@Calaca; context is important here. He is specifically talking about the compression being used to enhance his power.

If Doflamingo's statement had been worded "That attack was several times more powerful than anything the brat had hit me with earlier" that would be a lot more supportive in comparing Gear 4 and Gear 3.

 

[Xulrev]

Yeah, I actually think I retract my prior point in light of Damage's take. I do believe it is a reasonable assertion that his Gear 4 would be 3x Gear 2, but given the context and statements I think Damage is being fairly sound.

 

[The_Calaca]

Again with the spoonfeeding then? I'm sorry but the answer is no. You're looking for the smallest hole possible to dismiss everything, and at this point it's ridiculous.

Even Durability wise Gear 4th is far superior without relying on compression (because using compression to tank an attack doesn't make any sense) and Doffy was easily overpowering Luffy before he used it. The difference is vast, and dismissing the multiplier because of semanthics is a non-sense.

You haven't debunked the notion that even without releasing the full power of his Kong Gun Luffy still staggered and pressured Doffy while nothing else did nearly as much.

And the "halfway out" argument is countered with the idea that there's no way Luffy'd punch Doffy without throwing the punch first.

You haven't disproved Haki sensing either.

 

[Stefano4444]

It doesn't - which is why the multiplier shouldn't factor into determining his rating.

All we need to know is that Luffy's attacks with Gear 4 are more powerful than his attacks in Gear 3.

So you're suggesting to drop the 3 multiplier completely?

Even if we do that, Gear 4th should still give at least a 2 times boost of power, considering how much powerful Gear 4th is when compared to Gear 3rd, since it would stupid to put a "likely far higher" when Luffy should already be High 7-A with Gear 3rd alone (which also should give a 2 times multiplier).

So instead of something like this:

838.527 * 2 * 3 = 5.031162 Gigatons or Island Level.

It would be like this:

838.527 * 2 * 2 = 3.354108 Gigatons or Large Mountain Level+.

Still, Doffy's statement does imply that Luffy's physical strikes had stronger than any other previous attacks, and Doffy did see him using his Gear 3rd and like Js250476 has show Haki users don't need to even fight to sense the level of strength between people/animals, so i find hard to believe Doffy woudln't know how much strong Gear 3rd is and not considering him when talking about Gear 4th.

 

[Xulrev]

and Doffy did see him using his Gear 3rd and like Js250476 has show Haki users don't need to even fight to sense the level of strength between people/animals

General sensing=/=ability to analyze peoples' specific striking limits. Information Analysis is the ability that pertains to that and still requires proof.

The given analogy of 'DBZ characters can sense planet-busting ki!' is easy since anything remotely near DBZ characters as of Namek is planet-busting ki. It's not an exact level of strength, it's generalized; claiming Doflamingo can get it so specific with his Haki that he can analyze a punch he hasn't felt to quantify the specific multiplier is.......an absurdist reach and you need much better evidence to quantify that since nobody else has showcased anything remotely close to Haki of this level.

 

[The_Calaca]

He doesn't need to physically feel the punch tho.

Rayleigh sensed 500 beasts stronger than Pre TS Luffy. How did Rayleigh know about Luffy's limit if he hasn't experienced it by himself?

 

[Damage3245]

@Calaca; I feel like we're going around in circles here, most what you're arguing has nothing to do with my point. What does Haki sensing have to do what I'm talking about?

@Stefano; I don't think we can just apply 2x multipliers to something just because it is more powerful than a weaker attack?

Also, Doflamingo knowing or not knowing how strong Gear 3 is has nothing to do with it; Luffy isn't applying the tensile strength to the power of his Gear 3 attacks. (Unless you consider the King Kong Gun to be that?)

 

[Xulrev]

He doesn't need to physically feel the punch tho.
Rayleigh sensed 500 beasts stronger than Pre TS Luffy. How did Rayleigh know about Luffy's limit if he hasn't experienced it by himself?

Generalized knowledge of someone's 'tier' of strength shall we say, is not the same as knowing a limit or their pinnacle.

It'd be a guess at best and as such not applicable regardless.

 

[Stefano4444]

claiming Doflamingo can get it so specific with his Haki that he can analyze a punch he hasn't felt to quantify the specific multiplier is.......an absurdist reach

Rayleigh didn't even fight any of the beasts in the island and in just a a few seconds the guy was able to count at least 500 powerful beasts which Luffy, at that current state, wouldn't had be able to defeat.

It doesn't see that big of a reach for Haki users to be capable to feel the precise amount of power behind an attack (one which use Haki).

 

[Xulrev]

Rayleigh didn't even fight any of the beasts in the island and in just a a few seconds the guy was able to count at least 500 powerful beasts which Luffy, at that current state, wouldn't had be able to defeat.

It doesn't see that big of a reach for Haki users to be capable to feel the precise amount of power behind an attack (one which use Haki).

He was able to sense the 'aura' of their strength shall we say, and compare it to Luffy's, and sense one is bigger, sure.

To state they can sense the precise amount of power without any objective feats of such would be odd and need explicit feats, at least for wiki purposes and proof of Information Analysis.

We have yet to see any user of Haki gauge a strike's specific strength, at base, and I would be uncomfortable just presuming Observation Haki grants such an ability based on what is exceptionally heavily-interpreted feats at best.

 

[PlumCrayfish376]

Haven't read much of the arguements, too long, so I may be misinterpreting arguements but what with this about separting G4 Luffy's 'normal strength' to his 'tensile/compression attacks'. It is unnecessary and just making things complicated than it have to be and Luffy never does his G4 attack without doing that gimmick first and it is ooc for Luffy to do without it atm. We have to separate Luffy's normal attacks from those that utilizes his snapback gimmick, which almost a lot of Luffy's technique does.

Don't understand what Luffy not applying tensile/compression whatever to his G3 has anything to with the method of attacking that Luffy does with G4. I mean, G4 Luffy don't seem to ever utilizes the snapback technique that Luffy does with his techniques.

Why won't Doflamingo knows how strong G3 Luffy is. He block an enraged G3 Luffy's attack effortlessly, halting the force and impact entirely. Doffy should know how strong he is with his strings and a G3 attack barely faze it nor budge it slightly, so he should have a good grasp on where G3 Luffy's strength lies at. And combined that with Haki, why won't he he have a firm grasp? There are more ways to get a firm grasp on someone strength than just to take attacks to the face.

 

[Elizhaa]

@PlumCrayfish376, I think made a fair point. Doflamingo should be able to Luffy's strenght from his strings. In context, it makes less from Occam's razor that Doflamingo can't judged someone's strength from an attack on his string because his mastery of strings as he can make strings stronger or weaker depending on the attack or defense and his high intelligence. Like overall stated there are more ways to get a firm grasp on someone's strength than just to take damage.

 

[AstralKing7]

That actually makes a lot of sense

 

[Tetsucabrah]

http://prntscr.com/onc27j

this looks impressive

 

[Damage3245]

@PlumCrayfish376, I think made a fair point. Doflamingo should be able to Luffy's strenght from his strings. In context, it makes less from Occam's razor that Doflamingo can't judged someone's strength from an attack on his string because his mastery of strings as he can make strings stronger or weaker depending on the attack or defense and his high intelligence. Like overall stated there are more ways to get a firm grasp on someone's strength than just to take damage.

While that is a fair point, it is only a supporting point if we believe that he is specifically comparing Luffy's attack to Gear 3 in the first place.

@PlumCrayfish;

> Don't understand what Luffy not applying tensile/compression whatever to his G3 has anything to with the method of attacking that Luffy does with G4.

The point is that if Luffy were applying the tensile strength to his Gear 3 then he would be "increasing his power several times beyond the limit [of Gear 3]".

But that's not what is happening.

From what I can tell some people's interpretation of Doflamingo's words is that he is comparing Luffy's compressed Gear 4 punch to all of Luffy's earlier attacks including the Elephant Gun that Doflamingo blocked with his strings.

 

[Stefano4444]

@Stefano; I don't think we can just apply 2x multipliers to something just because it is more powerful than a weaker attack?

Why not? It has been proven that Gear 4th Luffy is much stronger to Gear 3rd Luffy, even with regular attacks.

Gear 3rd couldn't even crack a Biscuit Soldier, while Gear 4th could shatter it without difficulty.

This mean that the Kong Gun >>> Elephant Gun, and we're talking about a regular attack and not a charged attack.

 

[Damage3245]

@Stefano; a Kong Gun is a charged attack.

I agree that Kong Gun >>> Elephant Gun. The Elephant Gun being at least 7-A+ and the Kong Gun being High 7-A would be enough for those feats, wouldn't it?

 

[Stefano4444]

I agree that Kong Gun >>> Elephant Gun. The Elephant Gun being at least 7-A+ and the Kong Gun being High 7-A would be enough for those feats, wouldn't it?

Kinda, Luffy is already At least 7-A+ in Gear 2nd, logically speaking Gear 3rd should already put him at High 7-A.

Yeah, he don't had any direct feat but considering how much close he is to High 7-A in Gear 2nd, i think a jump of tier is enough justifiable with scaling alone.

@Stefano; a Kong Gun is a charged attack.

For charged attack i meant an attack with requid time and full concentration to reach its full power, something that its hard to utilize in the middle of a fight.

The Kong Gun despire using compression, is an attack that can be used many times over during a fight, which is why it more of a regular attack.

 

[Damage3245]

@Stefano; right now I'm trying to break down and analyze the feats of the of the Dressrosa high tiers to make the scaling better instead of everyone scaling to that one Pica feat.

Until that's done, what would you think about this as a compromise for now:

Dressrosa Key: 7-A+ with Gear 2, Likely High 7-A with Gear 3, higher with Gear 4

 

[Elizhaa]

Dressrosa Key: 7-A+ with Gear 2, Likely High 7-A with Gear 3, higher with Gear 4

This compromise could work, in my opinion.

 

[RexofLM]

And back to square 1 lol. Unfortunately Damage i doubt your goinh to find much. Weve got the zoro and pica stuff which is solid. We got fuji figured out but only perdon who even semi acales appears to be sabo and luffy (possibly zoro but thats anotherr doscussion for another thread.) Doffys attacks dont have any great feats sanjis absent. Chinjao has nothing, the best thing hajrudin has is flinging machvise but thats prolly an outlier or sum. The other captains did prettt much **** all that we havent checked.

For the sake of revisioms unless someone figures out a accurate way to calculate king kong gun or the birdcage perhaps we should settle on dressrosas current comprimise elizha agreed too and work on whole cake and wano

 

[Damage3245]

@RexofLM; If the current compromise works for you too, I'm fine with exploring Whole Cake Island & Wano's scaling further.

Doing more work on the Dressrosa stuff is just something I'll focus on myself and come back with proposals, if I do end up finding anything.

 

[The_Calaca]

Well, it seems we have reached a conclusion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the changes would be upgrade Gear 3rd to Likely High 7-A and Gear Fourth to High 7-A+, scaling the same characters to said form.

@Rex Hajrudin lifting Machvise was calced by Therefir and the result is 8-A.

King Kong Gun was calced by Cin in the recent times and the result is Low 7-B.

 

[Damage3245]

@Calaca; I don't think we should put Gear 4 as High 7-A+.

By marking it as higher, we acknowledge that Gear 4 can be anywhere between above baseline to the upper region of High 7-A.

 

[The_Calaca]

The multiplier hasn't been rejected so no, it's still valid and 3 GT is past the half point to get the +.

 

[RexofLM]

So what do we need for whole cake and wano? Whats katakuris current rating