One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #9

[Damage3245]

> There's no reason to believe the shield must be far above the character's durability either.

I didn't say it is far above his durability either.

But I don't reason to scale Spider's Web's durability to Doflamingo's durability just because he created it.

You gave examples yourself of Doflamingo's strings not scaling to his durability. I think we can leave it at that.

If you want to ask the staff to come back for their thoughts on the multiplier situation, please do.

 

[CinCameron20]

If it disappeared than I guess I agree with you since it seems irrelevant

@Everyone - Uh, guys... wounds in One Piece vanish almost every single time in the manga. That's a moot argument. Doflamingo's blood on his face vanishes between panels and entire pages, and his red-hawk injury vanished for 2 chapters then reappeared for 1 page before vanishing forever. Same with Katakuri's self-inflicted stab. It just vanished out of nowhere. That's just 2 examples. Every fight has this to varying effect.

And Fujitora had more than one mark on him... also, Luffy was in roughly the same condition. Nothing more than small bruises (which also vanished later on, cough cough), so why are we strictly discussing Fujitora's durability? Luffy took his attacks and he matched him blow-for-blow and even broke his guard with his initial Elephant Gun.

Also Jinbe was hurting Luffy by manipulating the water through the air and using a water shockwave going through Luffy's body (using his own body's water)

 

[CinCameron20]

Also, Doflamingo's threads snapped just from Luffy flexing in Gear 4th, while his body can withstand actual attacks, so i fail to see how Doffy's strings would be regarded as higher durability compared to himself.

Using a barrier that's = or even < the durability of yourself is obviously effective as it can prevent you from taking unnecessary damage (even if it managed to break). It would've been foolish of Doflamingo to attempt evasion with Luffy that close with a wide-ranged attack (especially since he could possibly follow-up with another attack), and even more so to just tank it with his own body.

 

[Js250476]

I can think of it as Doffy using the Spider web to block a big attack he also did it when Law sent a big piece of a building at him.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Damage raises some basic if good points. Certain abilities do not correlate to striking strength/durability. DF's being a good example.

The Magma Magma fruit belongs to the highest tier of AP within Dfs, with or without Akainu.

Teach attained the full power of the Gura Gura fruit, only control was an issue.

Duffy has shown to be at least comparable to his strings

Cracker proved to be many times more powerful than his already strong Biscuits.

etc

So in the case of the Stomp Stomp Fruit should Issho scale?

I see it as putting it into context. Unlike the meteors, this energy is all being produced by Issho, or the fruit power inside him anyway. If Issho's best feat were only Town Level then this jump would be ridiculous and only apply to that technique, or even an outlier. In this case we're looking at a jump from 800 megatons to 1.9 gigatons. I've seen bigger adjustments made for less than that.

So with that said let's look at the options laid out before us:

Option 1) No high 7-A. That means multiple characters get stuck with "At Least 7-A+"

Luffy Gear 2, Luffy Gear 3, Luffy Gear 4, Duffy, BS, Cracker, Smoothie, Katakuri, and many more if we fix some scaling.

Option 2) We disregard the gravity and the multiplier, but still hand out high 7-A for as @Damage suggested; being stronger than 7-A+. That wouldn't strictly speaking be within the rules of the forum since there's nothing to scale to. Many characters across the board are stuck at "At least X" that should be higher for the same reason.

Option 3) We take a leap of faith that Issho's strikes scale to High 7-A, opening up a tier for a great many characters stronger than 7-A+.

I think option three mkaes the most sense. Its better to presume Issho scales to his gravity energy (or at least half of it) then to assume everyone is "At Least 7-A+"

As far as Luffy not scaling to Issho because his bruise dissapeared, well it's easier for Oda to forget to draw something than for him to draw something he shouldn't have to begin with. It is probably a mild injury, I get that. Its still an injury. That Luffy was able to by pass his guard at all, sending him back AND causing (Minimal) damage points to Gear 3 being at least => than Issho IMO. Even if you disagree for some reason, I don't see how Luffy cannot even be half Issho's yield.

Also I cannot say I get the whole Gear 4 multiplier rejection. Near as I can tell @Damage wants to get riid of it because its a reference to how Luffy launches his attacks, but that is every attack he makes and his dur scales via physics and being able to tank hits like Duffy's kick.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

On the subject of DF's not always being indicative of striking strength.

I personally don't think anyone from Skypeia should scale to Enel's DF. His destructive power seems pretty unrivaled pre Thriller Bark. CP9's destructive feats seem pretty lacking in comparison.

At least from what I can remember, I haven't read that part of OP in like 6 years.

Enel's striking strength doesn't line up with his fruit at all. Although I do remember him being pretty strong, there was a point where he stepped on Zoro and Zoro couldn't even move iirc.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Tetsucabrah

Many characters tanked attacks from Enel. Wiper, for example, took a named attack that requires Enel to hit the stuff he has on his back, and the characters are scaling to a casual display of Enel's power. Zoro also sustained the damage from his electricity and woke up not too much time after.

Same with Usopp and Sanji, surprisingly. The latter even remained stand after getting directly shot with an El Thor after being attacked several times with a weapon that bypasses resistance (in his fight against Satori) and being shocked when Enel first beated him.

@Fix

That makes sense.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Okay but does anyone have any feats comparable to or better than Enel's pre Thriller Bark?

This scaling seems way too iffy to me.

 

[The_Calaca]

Every feat in Enies Lobby is around 8-C at best. Nobody has done anything impressive in terms of destructive potency.

Then we have a feat that's always going around High 7-C and another in the Low 7-B in Thriller Bark. I don't see why 7-C Skypiea is a problem, tbh.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Every feat in Enies Lobby is around 8-C at best. Nobody has done anything impressive in terms of destructive potency.

That's exactly where my issue stems from. It's not good scaling imo.

And Water 7/ CP9 would still be Low 7-C scaling from Luffy's previous feats iirc. There's at least one or two that are MCB+ that I've seen.

What's the high 7-C feat btw?

 

[The_Calaca]

So because nothing has done anything good in the arc we need to dismiss every previous feat. What? It's almost an AoE fallacy.

Lots of feats are heavily outdated.

Moriah splitting Thriller Bark.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

If we have supposedly far stronger characters underperforming compared to them yes.

The series has been pretty consistent with feats, this is the only case I can think off that doesn't add up.


I thought Moria's feat would be higher. I guess I'm misremembering it.

 

[The_Calaca]

So let's drop the entire verse to 9-A until Enies Lobby because stronger characters have 8-C feats only. This is what you're suggesting. A clear AoE fallacy.

A timeframe between three major arcs where the feats in the first and the third one are consistent, but just because the second one doesn't add up it's messed up. Right. It doesn't make any sense.

Let's not forget the possibility of the Thriller Bark discussion where we were talking about upgrading them to Low 7-B because of the Ursus Shock. If for any reason we dismiss the 7-C scaling, the Low 7-B would end up being an outlier before some eyes <.<.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

So let's drop the entire verse to 9-A until Enies Lobby because stronger characters have 8-C feats only. This is what you're suggesting. A clear AoE fallacy.
A timeframe between three major arcs where the feats in the first and the third one are consistent, but just because the second one doesn't add up it's messed up. Right. It doesn't make any sense.

No because the verse has been consistent before then.

And don't forget my original point came from the fact that someone brought up that DF AP doesn't always equal striking force. That's the main thing I'm basing this on.

This is the only place I feel where the scaling doesn't add up, it's consistent elsewhere.

 

[Js250476]

I mean technically Crocodiles sandstorm is low 7-C at the very least which would be consistent with the Skypiea stats but who wants to open that can of worms.

 

[The_Calaca]

You can find stupidly low feats with characters far stronger than that in almost every fictional work. Just look at Dragon Ball, FFS. It has a massive hole where dozens of characters have a massive scaling chain working just fine.

EL characters not destroying the whole island with awesome results isn't a problem to the scaling. We don't see Garou doing great feats either, and scaling to other characters is all he has.

This is literally picking an arc's showings and calling the only reliable evidence to scale the characters while A) that's a fallacy as I pointed above and B) if anything, the outlier comes from this arc since it's not showing the accurate power level their characters would have.

Besides the Magu Magu, no other Devil Fruit has been treated like its AP doesn't scale to the character. Otherwise, we'd be scaling Sabo to Ace's feats just because they have the same power.

And still, many different characters have tanked or stood up not too much time after against Enel's electricity on a consistent basis. Too many times to consider it unreliable for scaling.

In fact, dismissing this would leave a massive hole in-between arcs, since Low 7-C to High 7-C is a gap far bigger than 8-A to 7-C to High 7-C.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

I mean technically Crocodiles sandstorm is low 7-C at the very least which would be consistent with the Skypiea stats but who wants to open that can of worms. </div>

Tbf Crocodile is a massively inconsistent character himself, he went from losing to early Luffy to clashing with some of the strongest dudes in the world. And what time did he have to train? He was in prison.

But that's still a good point regardless.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

I'll drop the argument, my OP knowledge is too rusty and I certainly am never rereading that shit.

Just voicing some concerns I had.

 

[The_Calaca]

The whole war saga is inconsistent af with many characters, tbh.

 

[Js250476]

Luffy survived a punch from Buddha Sengoku, punched Blackbeard into a wall and survived a casual kick from Kizaru

Even Buggy seemed a lot stronger then his East Blue self by feats.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Also Sabo doesn't scale to Ace?

I think he should. Iirc they both dealt with Burgess in a similar manner and both had brief clashes with admirals. and Sabo had far less experience with the fruit.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Tetsu - Ace was about to wipe the floor with pre ts Burgess before BB stopped him... Also Ace fought competitively with BB while Sabo has only been shown fighting a very casual Fujitora (only fighting in order to put up a front for why he was incapable of stopping Luffy), and fighting Burgess for an extended period. While he did win without much stamina loss, it was shown that he was roughed up a little bit and that Burgess could actually compete when needed (their fight lasted longer than it took for Luffy to come back and defeat Doflamingo, so 10+ minutes).

And every Shounen is inconsistent when it comes to massive battles. Crocodile was pretty bad, but Luffy was worse. He struggled taking hits from Smoker, but then one-shot Koby, a giant officer, easily evaded Hina, took several hits from Aokiji and Kizaru, fought two Vice Admirals and could still stand before Kizaru finished him off, and took a hit from a serious Sengoku, who in turn could match Blackbeard... and Luffy also pressured Magellan, who was feared by literally EVERYONE in the prison, who are country level threats in Level 6 (not saying 6-B. I'm saying they were suggested by Sengoku to individually cause catastrophes in a country whether it be destructive or similarly to how Crocodile operated).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Cin Cameron also does raise some good arguments.

 

[CinCameron20]

We also need to consider this: Even if we have some disbelief of Fujitora scaling his durability to his own AP feat (which again requires his own energy, and he did the feat VERY casually), he matched Gear 3rd Luffy, who is likely >> Pica, who in turn is capable of casual 800+MT feats, and he also easily overpowered Zoro, who is also > Pica. It's not a reach to suggest he is >2x as powerful as these characters who couldn't even scratch him.

 

[Elizhaa]

We also need to consider this: Even if we have some disbelief of Fujitora scaling his durability to his own AP feat (which again requires his own energy, and he did the feat VERY casually), he matched Gear 3rd Luffy, who is likely >> Pica, who in turn is capable of casual 800+MT feats, and he also easily overpowered Zoro, who is also > Pica. It's not a reach to suggest he is >2x as powerful as these characters who couldn't even scratch him.

Honestly, an update to High 7-A via this Powerscaling chain like easily overpowering Zoro could work for Fujitora.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Medeus and @Elizhaa, what do you think about Gear 4th's multiplier?

 

[Elizhaa]

@Medeus and @Elizhaa, what do you think about Gear 4th's multiplier?

Honestly, the multiplier is fine to me. I do feel like we already accepted the multiplier earlier on an old One Piece CRT.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, it seems fine to use given 3x isn't super crazy of a gap.

 

[The_Calaca]

It's accepted. Damage was arguing why it shouldn't be applicable and he assumed that because both of you agreed with him before the multiplier should have been deleted from the scaling.

 

[Damage3245]

Honestly, the multiplier is fine to me. I do feel like we already accepted the multiplier earlier on an old One Piece CRT.

It was accepted on an old CRT but I brought up some new points that hadn't been considered before that shows it was likely Doflamingo wasn't referring to Gear 3 at all.

 

[The_Calaca]

This was accepted back when the verse was 6-B, and the scaling was for Red Hawk and THEN it changed to Gear 3rd since the difference between Red Hawk and the Elephant Gun (aka the most basic Gear 3rd attack) is that the latter can one-shot a character far stronger than the former almost finished off.

 

[Xulrev]

Why would a 3x multiplier to Luffy's highest striking power which Doflamingo has never personally experienced make sense?

Doflamingo has only ever been hit by Gear 2 their entire fight, it seems odd to state that Doflamingo knows the pinnacle of Luffy's striking AP going from solely Gear 2 strikes and can accurately state that yes indeed this man he is fighting just so happened to get an at least 3x multiplier to his maximum striking power and not what Doflamingo had been experiencing the entire fight.

It would be accepting a multiplier based on a character statement based on something they have no real idea of. The only Gear 3 interaction he has is with Spider Web blocking a single Gear 3 hit, but Doffy also used Spider Web to block a small chunk of building hurtled his way so it's not exactly consistent rationale to say he uses Spider Web for attacks he can't tank.

Further justification is necessary to apply such things imho, since as-is it's rather weak and making presumptions of a character's in-verse knowledge.

 

[Damage3245]

If Doflamingo was referring to Gear 3 itself when he made his statement that'd be one thing, but there is no indication he is referring to Gear 3 when he is talking about the tensile strength increasing Luffy's power several times.

If Luffy somehow compressed down an Elephant Gun to increase its power, that would make more sense, but that's not what is happening.

 

[Elizhaa]

If Doflamingo was referring to Gear 3 itself when he made his statement that'd be one thing, but there is no indication he is referring to Gear 3 when he is talking about the tensile strength increasing Luffy's power several times.
If Luffy somehow compressed down an Elephant Gun to increase its power, that would make more sense, but that's not what is happening.

I see. I think your point makes sense.

 

[Aerozz]

didnt speak for a long time but luffy blew air to his muscles + haki which makes his attacks way more powerful than g3 and g3 is only bones so......

doffy said g4 increases his power several times which is 3-10 times byond his limits which implies that luffy used his g2/g3 strongest attack on doffy, also luffy broke his spider defense with ease in g4 but in g3 didnt even do anything to his defense spider which made doffy calc his attack that g3 shouldnt break his defense but g4 broke it with ease.

edit, and also it doesnt matter if doffy gets hit from g3 or not he should know how strong is g3 without even getting hit physically ,its like he is using a normal defense but from outside his body and doffy is a mastermind he should know how strong is g3 attack and thats why he is saying g4 is several times stronger

 

[Damage3245]

@Aerozz; small correction, but Luffy's King Kong Gun is what broke through Doflamingo's Spider Web, and we currently rate it as being generally more powerful than Luffy's typical Gear 4 attacks.

Again, nobody is arguing that Gear 4 is not stronger than Gear 3. Just that the multiplier is being applied incorrectly.

 

[Aerozz]

@Damage3245 , yea maybe he didnt broke the spider defense move ,but luffy broke the strings from doffy's awakening attacks and also luffy broke the stings when luffy went into g4 with casual (when doffy controls him)

also ya i do believe luffy is at least 3 times g3 attacks if not more but 3 times is still a lowball coz it says several times.my reasons are above in my comment.

 

[Damage3245]

@Aerozz; your reasoning sounds very speculative.

I've already explained why Doflamingo is not talking about Gear 3 in the quote about the multiplier. Saying "Doffy should know how strong Gear 3 is" does not provide anything new.

 

[The_Calaca]

And for some reason assuming Doffy isn't talking about G3 when referring to Luffy's limit isn't speculative.

Again, I pointed above that a regular attack from Gear 4th is already many times stronger than Gear 3rd without using the full potential of the tensile force. It's actually the evidence that the difference is much larger.

 

[Aerozz]

@Damage3245 at least my reasons are from the manga itself ur the one who want to change the words from it like several times beyond his limts which means luffy's strongest attack in g3 attack and luffy broke doffy's awakening stings which is even more powerful than a spider defense coz its awakening and it has more strings in it but luffy did it with ease and g3 didnt do anything to spider defense.

thats all i want to say i dont want to argue more coz im tierd of this confs. thanks