- 14,409
- 1,692
....Doffy can tell how strong someone is with haki. Almost all proficient Haki users can do that.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #9
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
- 31,401
- 27,694
- Thread starter
- #282
> And for some reason assuming Doffy isn't talking about G3 when referring to Luffy's limit isn't speculative.
It seems like the most reasonable interpretation of his words to me.
> Again, I pointed above that a regular attack from Gear 4th is already many times stronger than Gear 3rd without using the full potential of the tensile force. It's actually the evidence that the difference is much larger.
We've not seen Luffy launch a regular attack from Gear 4. Unless you call the wind up to his Kong Gun a regular attack.
This idea that Doflamingo attempting to block Luffy's punch with Haki means that a regular Gear 4 attack is much stronger than Elephant Gun seems completely random to me.
It seems like the most reasonable interpretation of his words to me.
> Again, I pointed above that a regular attack from Gear 4th is already many times stronger than Gear 3rd without using the full potential of the tensile force. It's actually the evidence that the difference is much larger.
We've not seen Luffy launch a regular attack from Gear 4. Unless you call the wind up to his Kong Gun a regular attack.
This idea that Doflamingo attempting to block Luffy's punch with Haki means that a regular Gear 4 attack is much stronger than Elephant Gun seems completely random to me.
- 31,401
- 27,694
- Thread starter
- #283
The only canon detail we have about Doflamingo's Observation Haki is that he can use it.AstralKing7 said:
But that has nothing to do with the current topic anyways.
- 458
- 189
Also last thing why did luffy even use g4 in the animal island (2 years training) coz he knew that the monsters are way stronger than his g3 attacks and thats why luffy needed his g4 to defets then.hope this gives some clues to people and maybe u be convinced (FoR OnCe Jk)
alright now im done thanks and GL.
alright now im done thanks and GL.
- 31,401
- 27,694
- Thread starter
- #285
@Aerozz; you do understand that I'm still proposing that Luffy's Gear 4 rating will be higher than his Gear 3 rating?
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,206
- 5,335
Good point, in fact Luffy was able to sense that Cracker's Armament Haki was the strongest he had ever face until that point in the story.AstralKing7 said:
- 14,575
- 5,877
@Damage It is. In your head. You can assume whatever you want, but we go with the conclusion that makes the less assumptions and yours requires a lot of things and involves semanthics while ignoring anything else.
So Doffy using Haki to block a G4 attack is random. Wow, I'd never expect such weak argument from you, Damage. That's literally the evidence of the difference between forms. Why would Doffy use Haki if he doesn't need it, then? To bluff?
So Doffy using Haki to block a G4 attack is random. Wow, I'd never expect such weak argument from you, Damage. That's literally the evidence of the difference between forms. Why would Doffy use Haki if he doesn't need it, then? To bluff?
- 458
- 189
@Damage3245 yup i know whats ur saying but i dont agree with ur reasoning becasue it is not right imho it should be 3x if not more coz several.
- 31,401
- 27,694
- Thread starter
- #289
@Calaca; Doflamingo used Haki to block against Gear 2 attacks too...
Doflamingo using Haki to block =/= The attack must be stronger than Gear 3.
I'm pretty sure my interpretation requires less assumptions as a side note.
Doflamingo using Haki to block =/= The attack must be stronger than Gear 3.
I'm pretty sure my interpretation requires less assumptions as a side note.
- 14,409
- 1,692
Good point, in fact Luffy was able to sense that Cracker's Armament Haki was the strongest he had ever face until that point in the story.
Exactly. Doffy doesn't have to come out a literally say that he used haki. The fact that he gave a multiplier supports that he did use it to see how strong Luffy was compared to his other forms
Exactly. Doffy doesn't have to come out a literally say that he used haki. The fact that he gave a multiplier supports that he did use it to see how strong Luffy was compared to his other forms
- 31,401
- 27,694
- Thread starter
- #291
Where does Doflamingo mention Luffy's previous forms?AstralKing7 said:
- 14,575
- 5,877
And Base Luffy harmed Doffy. It's another inconsistency when he can no-diff an Elephant Gun without Haki. He even said that his attacks lacked weight after having his inner organs messed by Law.
And none of those attacks even staggered a bit. But as long as Luffy goes G4 Doffy gets pushed back and then he makes a tour through Dressrosa after a single attack.
Yours relies on semanthics, ignores power scaling and power setting.
And none of those attacks even staggered a bit. But as long as Luffy goes G4 Doffy gets pushed back and then he makes a tour through Dressrosa after a single attack.
Yours relies on semanthics, ignores power scaling and power setting.
- 31,401
- 27,694
- Thread starter
- #293
> It's another inconsistency when he can no-diff an Elephant Gun without Haki.
By relying on Spider's Web, yes.
> He even said that his attacks lacked weight after having his inner organs messed by Law.
Yes, his Gear 2 attacks aren't that strong. But Doflamingo isn't the type to let himself be hit by most attacks if he can help it.
He has blocked Luffy's Gear 2 attacks with Haki, and dodged Luffy's Gear 2 attacks multiple times.
By relying on Spider's Web, yes.
> He even said that his attacks lacked weight after having his inner organs messed by Law.
Yes, his Gear 2 attacks aren't that strong. But Doflamingo isn't the type to let himself be hit by most attacks if he can help it.
He has blocked Luffy's Gear 2 attacks with Haki, and dodged Luffy's Gear 2 attacks multiple times.
- 14,575
- 5,877
He took a Hawk Bazooka after getting pummeled and nothing was achieved even with him not using Haki to protect himself. You can tell the difference just watching the fight.
- 31,401
- 27,694
- Thread starter
- #295
Yes, he didn't take damage from the Hawk Bazooka (though he did get knocked back pretty far from it).
But my point is that saying "Doflamingo used Haki to try and block the Gear 4 punch means that the Gear 4 punch is several times above Luffy's Elephant Gun" is bad logic, since Doflamingo has demonstrably used Haki to block other weaker attacks.
But my point is that saying "Doflamingo used Haki to try and block the Gear 4 punch means that the Gear 4 punch is several times above Luffy's Elephant Gun" is bad logic, since Doflamingo has demonstrably used Haki to block other weaker attacks.
- 279
- 80
If I may add. Damage your interpretation does seem a tad bit more technical and based of the semantics of your situation then just him being stronger then previous. If hes using the tensile force to multiply the power beyond its limit and doflamingos not referring to previous attacks then hr has no basis for said limit. G4th curb stomped doflamingo he could only take 5 hits in total without getting knocked out. Based on the last scaling chain that puts him in high 7A could a High 7A g4 still do that?? (Im legitimately wondering)
- 31,401
- 27,694
- Thread starter
- #298
> If hes using the tensile force to multiply the power beyond its limit and doflamingos not referring to previous attacks then hr has no basis for said limit.
It's just straightforward logic:
- Luffy compresses his fist within himself as he prepares his attack.
- Luffy's punch expands and hits Doflamingo with much greater force than he was expecting.
- Doflamingo states that Luffy uses the tensile force to increase his power several times.
There is no need to attribute this to him talking about Gear 3.
> Based on the last scaling chain that puts him in high 7A could a High 7A g4 still do that??
I'm pretty sure someone within the same tier as someone else can overpower them.
I'm also pretty sure Doflamingo currently gets his durability rating from Gear 4 anyway.
It's just straightforward logic:
- Luffy compresses his fist within himself as he prepares his attack.
- Luffy's punch expands and hits Doflamingo with much greater force than he was expecting.
- Doflamingo states that Luffy uses the tensile force to increase his power several times.
There is no need to attribute this to him talking about Gear 3.
> Based on the last scaling chain that puts him in high 7A could a High 7A g4 still do that??
I'm pretty sure someone within the same tier as someone else can overpower them.
I'm also pretty sure Doflamingo currently gets his durability rating from Gear 4 anyway.
- 31,401
- 27,694
- Thread starter
- #300
@RexofLM; Doflamingo is already pretty weakened by this point which is why even when applying Haki to his face he can be injured slightly by base Luffy. I don't think causing his guard to be staggered is necessarily a High 7-A feat.
Plus the punch is expanding as it is hitting Doflamingo; there is no point in which Doflamingo is blocking an ordinary uncompressed punch from Gear 4 Luffy.
For Dressrosa Arc Luffy I believe we should simply rate his Gear 3 as being at least 7-A+, and his Gear 4 is High 7-A.
Plus the punch is expanding as it is hitting Doflamingo; there is no point in which Doflamingo is blocking an ordinary uncompressed punch from Gear 4 Luffy.
For Dressrosa Arc Luffy I believe we should simply rate his Gear 3 as being at least 7-A+, and his Gear 4 is High 7-A.
- 14,575
- 5,877
>Straightforward logic
>Needs many sentences to explain itself
No. It doesn't add up.
You're stretching the explanations to dismiss the multiplier. Sorry, but that's a no no and nobody believes in your argument regarding it even after you explained it for a long time.
>Needs many sentences to explain itself
No. It doesn't add up.
You're stretching the explanations to dismiss the multiplier. Sorry, but that's a no no and nobody believes in your argument regarding it even after you explained it for a long time.
- 31,401
- 27,694
- Thread starter
- #302
@Calaca; how does needing more than one sentence to break it down for you mean it isn't simple logic?
Let me put it like this:
Do you believe that Luffy compressing his fist inside of his arm for the Kong Gun makes his punch any more powerful than if he had just punched without compressing his fist?
Also, you missed this from Elizhaa when I explained it: "I see. I think your point makes sense."
Let me put it like this:
Do you believe that Luffy compressing his fist inside of his arm for the Kong Gun makes his punch any more powerful than if he had just punched without compressing his fist?
Also, you missed this from Elizhaa when I explained it: "I see. I think your point makes sense."
- 14,575
- 5,877
Do I have to say this again? We go by the conclusion that takes less assumptions in order to avoid personal headcanons taking part of the profiles.
You're just overthinking every single speech bubble to get your point proven, when that doesn't follow the logic of the rest of the series.
>Doflamingo has Haki
>Basic Haki let you feel the strength
>Doflamingo talks about Luffy's limit
>Luffy's limit is Gear 3rd
"No, he's not talking about Gear 3rd" is a non-sensical argument that ignores everything else just for the sake of downgrade the scaling chain. Stop.
We have this conversation every week. We don't need to be spoonfeed for every panel. Claiming that something isn't like that because it's not explicitly stated is stupid and we had this song and dance before and the conclusion was the same. Seriously, this is just prolonging the thread with headcanons and conclusions that come from overly long explanations that contradicts the manga.
You're just overthinking every single speech bubble to get your point proven, when that doesn't follow the logic of the rest of the series.
>Doflamingo has Haki
>Basic Haki let you feel the strength
>Doflamingo talks about Luffy's limit
>Luffy's limit is Gear 3rd
"No, he's not talking about Gear 3rd" is a non-sensical argument that ignores everything else just for the sake of downgrade the scaling chain. Stop.
We have this conversation every week. We don't need to be spoonfeed for every panel. Claiming that something isn't like that because it's not explicitly stated is stupid and we had this song and dance before and the conclusion was the same. Seriously, this is just prolonging the thread with headcanons and conclusions that come from overly long explanations that contradicts the manga.
- 31,401
- 27,694
- Thread starter
- #304
>Doflamingo talks about Luffy's limit
>Luffy's limit is Gear 3rd
This is the major assumption on your part. Me saying "He's not talking about Gear 3rd" isn't a non-sensical argument, it is just what is happening.
Luffy punching as hard as he can without using tensile force = his limit.
Luffy punching after increasing his power several times with tensile force = surpassing his limit.
This isn't overthinking it, this is about as simply as his speech bubble could be interpreted.
Doflamingo isn't performing calculations in his head to measure the strength of Luffy's attacks and comparing them to each other. He is just explaining the self-evident truth that Luffy compressing his limbs is increasing his power significantly.
The repeated accusations of headcanon for this isn't appreciated. If you think we need to settle this for certain, perhaps we need a separate thread for it.
>Luffy's limit is Gear 3rd
This is the major assumption on your part. Me saying "He's not talking about Gear 3rd" isn't a non-sensical argument, it is just what is happening.
Luffy punching as hard as he can without using tensile force = his limit.
Luffy punching after increasing his power several times with tensile force = surpassing his limit.
This isn't overthinking it, this is about as simply as his speech bubble could be interpreted.
Doflamingo isn't performing calculations in his head to measure the strength of Luffy's attacks and comparing them to each other. He is just explaining the self-evident truth that Luffy compressing his limbs is increasing his power significantly.
The repeated accusations of headcanon for this isn't appreciated. If you think we need to settle this for certain, perhaps we need a separate thread for it.
- 14,575
- 5,877
Saying that Gear 3rd is Luffy's limit before Gear 4th is a big assumption? What?
Red Hawk which is > Gear 2nd regular attacks couldn't defeat Hody but dealt a damage big enough to pressure him to eat a bunch of steroids which increase his strength by a wide margin. Then Luffy one-shots Hody with that effect with an Elephant Gun. I'm pretty sure his limit between these two forms is pretty clear.
>Doflamingo isn't performing calculations
Nobody said such a thing, and if he were to say something like "huh, he's three times stronger now" the statement would be dubious. But he's not. He's using "several" as a reference with no exact way to quantify it. We're giving the 3x multiplier as a result.
Red Hawk which is > Gear 2nd regular attacks couldn't defeat Hody but dealt a damage big enough to pressure him to eat a bunch of steroids which increase his strength by a wide margin. Then Luffy one-shots Hody with that effect with an Elephant Gun. I'm pretty sure his limit between these two forms is pretty clear.
>Doflamingo isn't performing calculations
Nobody said such a thing, and if he were to say something like "huh, he's three times stronger now" the statement would be dubious. But he's not. He's using "several" as a reference with no exact way to quantify it. We're giving the 3x multiplier as a result.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,206
- 5,335
Just to understand what its going on since i lost track of the argument, what are we arguing exactly?
About if the Gear 4th Multiplier should be apply to Luffy with Gear 2nd only or to Luffy with Gear 3rd?
About if the Gear 4th Multiplier should be apply to Luffy with Gear 2nd only or to Luffy with Gear 3rd?
- 279
- 80
More or less the arguments are as followsStefano4444 said:
Calca believes that gear 4ths multiplier that doflamingo gives is in reference to gear third. Based on blocking those attacks.
Damage believes the multiplier is in reference to luffys contracting his arm and then multipliying the power upon expansion
Its the difference in dressrosa G4th being 6-C or High 7-A
- 1,461
- 764
@Calaca
I'm not claiming that. I'm asserting that there exists no evidence to base Doflamingo's claim off of Gear 3rd since he never was hit by it.
Objectively, yes, Luffy's highest AP ought to be from Gear 3rd. Subjectively to Doffy's frame of reference, he's working within the constraints of what he knows of Luffy, which is his Gear 2nd hits.
I'm not claiming that. I'm asserting that there exists no evidence to base Doflamingo's claim off of Gear 3rd since he never was hit by it.
Objectively, yes, Luffy's highest AP ought to be from Gear 3rd. Subjectively to Doffy's frame of reference, he's working within the constraints of what he knows of Luffy, which is his Gear 2nd hits.
- 14,575
- 5,877
Doffy stopped the Elephant Gun with the Spider Web, his own attack. He has complete control of his strings, plus he has Observation which let the user feel the strength of the opponent.
I'm pretty sure he knows Luffy's strength, that's why he avoided any possibility of clashing with Gear 3rd physically.
I'm pretty sure he knows Luffy's strength, that's why he avoided any possibility of clashing with Gear 3rd physically.
- 1,461
- 764
Evidence of him having Information Analysis feats via strings? And also for Observation Haki having the same ability?
I'm pretty sure we can't make such a bold claim as 'Doffy just-so-happens to know Luffy's exact limits in Gear 3rd regardless of having never clashed with it'; we need feats or abilities to back up such a claim.
To my knowledge, Doffy never once utilizes his strings to obtain information or analyze data, but I could absolutely be wrong here I suppose.
I'm pretty sure we can't make such a bold claim as 'Doffy just-so-happens to know Luffy's exact limits in Gear 3rd regardless of having never clashed with it'; we need feats or abilities to back up such a claim.
To my knowledge, Doffy never once utilizes his strings to obtain information or analyze data, but I could absolutely be wrong here I suppose.
- 14,409
- 1,692
Haki literally gives u the ability to see how strong your opponent is. Rayleigh even said that if I remember for correctly
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,206
- 5,335
Luffy could sense that Cracker's Haki was stronger than anyone he had faced before, while the former was inside one of his Biscuit Soldier rather than fight directly.Xulrev said:
I don't see how Doffy using the Spider Web to stop Gear 3rd Luffy would prevent him to sense Luffy's true strength with Gear 3rd, because by your logic then Luffy wouldn't be able to sense Cracker's Haki too since he was using his Biscuit Soldier, which is not the case.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,206
- 5,335
No but Haki grant Extrasensory Perception which give you the ability to sense the power levels of other characters and their attacks.Xulrev said:
- 1,461
- 764
Sensing someone is STRONG is not the same as sensing their precise physical limitations; if it were, Luffy would never have engaged combat with Kaido and gotten one-shotted cuz he would have recognized the disparity there.
Doflamingo is taking hits from Gear 2 all day long from Luffy in the chapter prior to Gear Four. He states Luffy packs no weight behind his punches. Luffy proceeds to go Gear Four and Doffy proceeds to comment on how his striking went up.
This is pretty clear-cut not a reference to Gear 3rd since he never interacts with it directly. An inanimate object being summoned that is not attached to a person's body sensing the strength of a being hitting it would require Information Analysis feats, pretty clear-cut.
Doflamingo is taking hits from Gear 2 all day long from Luffy in the chapter prior to Gear Four. He states Luffy packs no weight behind his punches. Luffy proceeds to go Gear Four and Doffy proceeds to comment on how his striking went up.
This is pretty clear-cut not a reference to Gear 3rd since he never interacts with it directly. An inanimate object being summoned that is not attached to a person's body sensing the strength of a being hitting it would require Information Analysis feats, pretty clear-cut.
- 14,409
- 1,692
...implying that Luffy even used it against Kaido and implying that Luffy of all people would run from a man who supposedly had just killed his whole crew.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,206
- 5,335
Extrasensory Perception should be able to do the same, dbz characters could sense if a Ki Attack was going to destroy a planet or not (like when Goku stated that Kid Buu's Planet Burst was going to wipe out Earth), despire the fact that energy blats are inanimate objects.Xulrev said:
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,206
- 5,335
Also assuming that Gear 4th is a 3 times multiplier for Gear 2nd would imply that Gear 3rd is not even that big of a power increase, which i find hard to believe.
Gear 3rd allowed Luffy to nearly KO Rob Lucci and KO Don Chinjao, when he couldn't do either of them in Gear 2nd.
All of this prove Gear 3rd should be at mininum 2 times stronger than Gear 2nd, but if we do that it would means that the difference betwen Gear 3rd and Gear 4th is also at most 1.5 times, which cannot be.
Since the same Gear 3rd had no effect again any of Doffy's strings, while in Gear 4th he could easily shatter them
It make more sense to apply the 3x multiplier to Gear 3rd rather than Gear 2nd.
Gear 2nd < Gear 3rd (2 times) < Gear 4th (3 times).
Gear 3rd allowed Luffy to nearly KO Rob Lucci and KO Don Chinjao, when he couldn't do either of them in Gear 2nd.
All of this prove Gear 3rd should be at mininum 2 times stronger than Gear 2nd, but if we do that it would means that the difference betwen Gear 3rd and Gear 4th is also at most 1.5 times, which cannot be.
Since the same Gear 3rd had no effect again any of Doffy's strings, while in Gear 4th he could easily shatter them
It make more sense to apply the 3x multiplier to Gear 3rd rather than Gear 2nd.
Gear 2nd < Gear 3rd (2 times) < Gear 4th (3 times).
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,206
- 5,335
^ This, Rayleigh didn't even need to fight the animals or have a direct physical contact to know their level of strength.Js250476 said:
- 31,401
- 27,694
- Thread starter
- #320
> Also assuming that Gear 4th is a 3 times multiplier for Gear 2nd would imply that Gear 3rd is not even that big of a power increase, which i find hard to believe.
Who suggested multiplying Gear 2 for Gear 4?
Who suggested multiplying Gear 2 for Gear 4?
