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One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #9

Okay. For the record I support it, but I will unsubscribe to this thread then.
 
Here is the entire breakdown.

If anyone thinks I've missed a feat of Luffy's that is worth including, please let me know.

The most significant change to Luffy's profile first of all is this line for his base form:

> At least Small City level+, possibly Mountain level+ in base (Far superior to the likes of Chinjao, and should not be drastically inferior to the likes of Sanji)

I don't think the breakdown of feats shows that Luffy is far superior to Chinjao, and "should not be drastically inferior to the likes of Sanji" doesn't seem to have any basis for applying to his base self.
 
Well, yes, but Luffy's profile is the one most in need of fixing.
 
I'm aware of that I thought that was why we were scaling Luffy to Sanji at all. (Unless he specifically meant the Dressrosa key)
 
I was referring to the Dressrosa key.

But I'll update the analysis to include that bit in the WCI section.
 
Early Whole Cake Luffy is the same as Dressrosa Luffy since his feats changed after his fight with Katakuri.
 
So scaling wise Doflamingo is bare minimum large mountain level for completely outclassing luffy up until gear 4th?? Or is that not what these results imply
 
Slightly offtopic:

In the Zunisha's potential energy calc, the scan points out that Zunisha's height (excluding the 2nd part of its legs) is 20 km, meaning that0 can be used for the ratio instead, boosting the calc
 
Right, the accounted part in the calc is 13.6km. But where's the statement about Zunisha being 20km tall above the sea level?
 
@kobster

the depth changes around the world 10km was only confirmed under the holy land

in the scan that was shown it's clear that half of his legs are under water
 
The Calaca said:
Right, the accounted part in the calc is 13.6km. But where's the statement about Zunisha being 20km tall above the sea level?
Click to expand...
It's in japanese, but you can see the number 20 on the scan. I also think someone on reddit translated it(Can't find it though)
 
RexofLM said:
So scaling wise Doflamingo is bare minimum large mountain level for completely outclassing luffy up until gear 4th?? Or is that not what these results imply
Click to expand...
Possibly, it depends how much one looks at Gear 3 VS Fuji and if we apply his lifting feat.

I see it as:

Base Luffy=7-A+ via Sanji and Zoro

Gear 2= At least 7-A+

Gear 3= High 7-A for pushing back Fuji and being stronger than gear 2, and everything else listed.

Gear 4= At Least high 7-A+, possibly 6-C via the three times multiplier. The reason I don't say just 6-C is because I don't think Damage wants Luffy to scale fully to Issho's 1.9 in Gear 3.

That should mean anywhere from high 7-A Duffy (His repeated scaling to Issho and over powering Luffy to a large degree) to At least high 7-A (If he's that much stronger than the full 1.9).
 
I'm halfway through creating an analysis post for Sanji right now. Since he seems to be one of the key characters involved for scaling.
 
@Fix - Well, Doflamingo would scale (AP-wise) >> Base Luffy's Durability and </comparable to Gear 4th, so he'd probably be "At least High 7-A (1.9GT), Possibly 6-C (5.7GT)" Depending where we leave Gear 4th Luffy.

  • The issue is that if we're using the 3x multiplier, we can't just ignore the fact that Doflamingo has defended against and evaded attack from Gear 3rd Luffy, so he should have an idea on how strong he is (not to mention Gear 4th being capable of breaking Doflamingo's Haki-infused guard where-as Gear 3rd didn't even push Spider-Thread--which had no visible use of Haki at the time).
Yes, Gear 4th Luffy is physically superior to (a weakened, and likely healthy) Doflamingo, but Doflamingo still put up a fight and took several blows + Luffy's strongest attack before falling down, so we shouldn't discredit him.

As for Gear 3rd scaling to Issho, I would basically be repeating my previous argument as to why he should scale.
 
Evading attacks doesn't mean you know how strong they are. And he only blocked a single Elephant Gun with his Spider Web technique.

The three times multiplier is a shaky method for determining the ratings IMO. Obviously Gear 4 is stronger than Gear 3, but I don't think we should treat the multiplier as an objective one.

AP-wise, Doflamingo isn't comparable to Gear 4 at all.

Doflamingo took a total of 4 blows which was enough to almost finish him off until the last attack. More than what Charlotte Cracker took at least, I'll grant him that.
 
@Damage - Doflamingo was already injured, and clearly far weaker than he was initially by the time he was face-to-face with Bound Man. Why is this always overlooked? They made it very clear he was dying before he used his ability to save himself and keep his body alive.

Blocking a single punch from Luffy's Gear 3rd with consummate ease should be an indication he should have a clear sense of how strong Gear 3rd is, and he even mocked Luffy's lack of strength within the same chapter. Also, even if he evaded the attacks, surely as a Kenbunshoku Haki user, Doflamingo has the ability to sense how strong Luffy's attacks are. And before you say it's speculation: Luffy and Sanji have both used Kenbunshoku to detect the presence of individuals they find "strong" or "monstrous" in power.

  • As to why Doflamingo mocked Gear 4th initially before getting shocked right before the first punch, I'll never know.
Also, we have characters like the Biscuit Soldiers and Katakuri who very casually overpower Gear 3rd in terms of AP and Durability, but when Gear 4th popped up, they were either one-shot or overwhelmed when having to block or tank the attacks. I doubt Gear 4th Luffy would be merely 32% higher than Gear 3rd in AP (if we're using the 3x multiplier from Gear 2nd instead of 3rd) if he's going from doing basically nothing in terms of damage, to suddenly stomping or equalizing his opponent.
 
The 3x multiplier is nothing but a lowball since, as Cin explained, being stomped to suddenly thrashing the other character differs from such a small difference. It's the reason why the SSJ2 multiplier isn't considered legit in the wiki.

"Several" is the word used for Doffy when he referenced Luffy's strength, and several could mean anything between 3 to 10. In this case we're going with the lowest estimate.
 
  • As to why Doflamingo mocked Gear 4th initially before getting shocked right before the first punch, I'll never know.
Probably because Kenbunshoku Haki hasn't shown any signs of taking a user inflating themselves with air into account when measuring power levels. (In all seriousness, Doflamigno hasn't shown himself to be a proficient user of CoO Haki even though we know he has it).

And because Luffy looks ridiculous.

> Doflamingo was already injured, and clearly far weaker than he was initially by the time he was face-to-face with Bound Man. Why is this always overlooked?

Probably because Doflamingo's durability has been shown to be relatively inconsistent. Seeing as he can go from being battered by base Luffy to tanking his Gear 2 attacks without an issue, to then being battered around the city by Gear 4 but still able to stand up somehow.

Either that, or Luffy's AP is incredibly inconsistent.

EDIT:

One of the reasons why I think Luffy's AP increase isn't just a straight multiplier like this:

Elephant Gun x 3 = Kong Gun.

Is because of the different in the way each form powers Luffy up.

Luffy's Gear 3 swells his arm enormously to increase his damage.

Luffy's Gear 4 swells his arm slightly, and uses tensile strength (drawing his fist back into his arm) to increase his damage.

So it isn't that the tensile strength is raising the power of his Gear 3 form several times. It's increasing his power of himself after he has inflated his muscles for Gear 4 several times.

So it's not like:

Gear 3 + Tensile Force = Gear 4.

It's more like:

Gear 4 + Tensile Force = Kong Gun.

Sorry if I haven't explained it well.
 
I mean ik we are applying logic and semantics to wording here but lets not forget intent. Gear 4th is above his other forms by a considerable margin is what the source material is trying to tell us. Gear fourth puts luffy in a position to thrash everybody who can withstand 2nd and third. And opponents that he can beat with gear second or third he doesnt use gear fourth against
 
@RexofLM; for sure, I'm agreeing that the attacks he uses with Gear 4 is above Gear 3.
 
IIRC, Cin has posted a wall of text with Doflamingo's every usage of Observation. Saying that he has no feats with it is untrue, and sensing is one of the most basic uses of Haki anyway.

It could also be argued that he sensed Sanji's strength before stomping him, stating that he was a "strong one".

As for the Gear 4th mechanics, you're not wrong and it's easy to understand. However, it doesn't change anything at all. The conclusion is the same, since 3x multiplier is still having effect.
 
Tried to post a comment earlier, but it simply vanished, reeee.

Anyways, to sum it up:

@Damage:

I literally posted several showing of potential Haki usages for Doffy regarding CoO. It was used to argue why he SHOULD be considered a Kenbunshoku user before he was confirmed by the databook. I even left out other cases.

Luffy harming Doflamingo while in base only occurred when he struck his torso seconds after Doflamingo began recovering, and i'll get to that in a later paragraph/topic.

As of chapter 783, likely several minutes had passed (entire conversation, Trebol trying to kill Law, explosion, Doffy last attempt on Law's life, then Doffy + Luffy mocking eachother). That's enough time for Doflamingo to at least close the wounds via his ability, and Luffy only managed to hurt Doflamingo while Gamma Knife was still inside him (780) and seconds after he got back up (781).

  • Think of it as: 100% Doffy >>>> Base/G2 Luffy, but Gamma Knife Doffy ~> Luffy, but some time passes for him to close the wounds >> Luffy.
    • Doflamingo was obviously not fully recovered due to: 1) Massive Blood Loss... passed internal bleeding would be difficult to deal with in live combat, 2) Possibly severe damage to his muscles that would not be fixed over a few minutes, 3) Possible shock to his body from the pain, and 4) muscles in the torso are connected to the tendons and muscles in the arms and legs, so he'd be weakened even if he managed to fix everything due to how tender the attack would have made him. Stitching wont fix that. It would take weeks to months to fully recover.
Doflamingo doesn't have to be anywhere near full power to wipe the floor with Base/2nd Gear Luffy, as we've seen him casually one-shot him on two occasions (745 and 760), and still get the upper hand in chapter 781 when he was greatly weakened... and 783 speaks for itself.

Doflamingo's durability isn't inconsistent either. He never took damage from Luffy's attacks (aside from Red Hawk which has been established to bypass dura to some degree) until he was damaged by Gamma Knife. Luffy used a jet stamp and it damaged Doffy. He landed a kick to Doffy's gut likely seconds after he stood up to try and stomp Law's head, which hurt him (the followed up attacks only showed to phase Doflamingo, who was still stunned and spewing blood from the previous attack) and as time went on, Doflamingo wasn't as weak as he was he was. By Chapter 783, minutes had passed due to obvious dialogue from Trebol and things in between, but also Doflamingo mentioning the Bird-Cage closure (time having passed by some minutes), and the wounds would have been closed, but still affecting him (But Luffy's too weak to harm him significantly as seen before)

Regarding G3 and G4... You are comparing Luffy inflating his bones to inflating his muscles. I never compared the two. I am taking Doflamingo's statement, which says this word for word: "He's hardening his skin with Armament Haki and using the tensile force to raise his power several times beyond its limit!"

Limit: a point or level beyond which something does not or may not extend or pass - If we look at it by definition, we'd have to assume Doflamingo is referring to the maximum power that he believed Luffy to be capable of, and the strongest attack (physically) that he had taken/blocked is Elephant Gun (which he no-sold w/ threads). Luffy tried to use Gear 3rd at least one more time in their fight to no avail (but most of the portion of the fight during 783 was off-panel due to Law's dialogue w/ Cavendish)
 
>>Doflamingo was already injured, and clearly far weaker than he was initially by the time he was face-to-face with Bound Man. Why is this always overlooked?

I realise this was directed at Damage but to give my two cents; it's not overlooked, its look at with all the details.

1) Duffy was healing himself with his threads

2) Luffy was also in miserable shape

3) That's really more a testament to Duffy's tremendous stamina/pain tolerance than it is his stats (Durability/AP).
 
> Limit: a point or level beyond which something does not or may not extend or pass - If we look at it by definition, we'd have to assume Doflamingo is referring to the maximum power that he believed Luffy to be capable of, and the strongest attack (physically) that he had taken/blocked is Elephant Gun (which he no-sold w/ threads).

This is the point I think that is in contention.

I don't think Doflamingo is referring to Luffy's Gear 3 here, but just Luffy when he has Gear 4 active.

If Luffy didn't coil his fist back into his arm but just punch with Gear 4 normally, it would be much weaker than his Kong Gun.

I think what it boils down to is this:

Luffy inflates his muscles and coats himself with Armament Haki (going into Gear 4) - and then the tensile force (contracting his fists) to raise his power several times beyond its limit.

So I can't believe it's taken me this long to realize, but I don't think this is a reference to Gear 3 at all.
 
@Damage. Either your or cins explanation coule be used here but unless im forgetting something yours doesnt change much. Even if he means it raises it beyond g4 limit we havent ever seen luffy hit someone with a normal punch in g4 theyre all contracted punches. Also ot would be weird for Doflamingo to refer to it exceeding gear fourths normal limit because he never took a hit from gear fourth that didnt come from a contracted punch.
 
@RexofLM; my interpretation means it is a lot harder to justify using the multiplier on Luffy's Gear 3 AP value.

I get what you mean about Doflamingo not taking an attack from Gear 4 normally; but his statement I assume would be based on his deductions from seeing Luffy's tensile strength at work by compacting his fist down and experiencing the energy from that built-up tension being released and breaking through his Haki guard.
 
The result is the same. The only reason to think Luffy's limit isn't Gear 3rd prior to Gear 4th is assuming a regular punch from G4 is somehow inferior to G3.

IIRC, Culverin doesn't work by compacting and releasing the fist, but even if so, the arm stretched so far that the compression shouldn't be a factor at all and Doflamingo still got damage from the attack.
 
@Calaca, the attack does work by compression too. Since the Culverin keeps expanding and redirecting after his initial punch and still managed to knock Doflamingo to the ground, I presume it didn't lose too much power but is likely inferior to the Kong Gun a bit.
 
Checking the fight, yes, Culverin does work like that.

Doflamingo no-sold a Gear 3rd attack without Haki while a Pre-Release Kong Gun was strong enough to stagger his Haki guard, showing Doflamingo visibly affected by the punch even before being throwed through the town when Luffy released the punch.

With this in mind, the result is much higher than 3x considering that a Pre-Release Kong Gun is stronger than an Elephant Gun, and the potential energy is just multiplying the force by 3. It doesn't change much besides the fact that any G4 attack is >> G3.
 
Doflamingo had only seen the form of Gear 4th. He said the tensile strength is what boosted the attack power over his previous limit, but in regards to Gear 4th... he only took hits with that technique, and the strongest attack he stopped before-hand was Elephant Gun.

  • And whether you believe the limit is referring to Gear 4th or Gear 3rd, it doesn't matter as Doflamingo was referring to Luffy's max capacity before-hand.
@Fix:

1) Yes, Doflamingo was recovering over time, but it is not possible for him to fully recover due to him having no ability to restore blood loss, stop the pain, seal the wounds closed (any hit that disturbs his fresh injury will simply re-open it, even if he stitches them together), and several other moderate factors that would hinder him. All he did was stop the blood loss, and forced his body to continue its normal functions. The wound was closed, but not fully healed, as that would take more time than a few minutes (the entire battle from when Gear 4th was unleashed lasted approximately 30+ minutes, and if we account for the time after Luffy recovered his Haki, and even the time before he used Gear 4th, it was likely a 40-45 minute affair. Not enough time to actually "heal").

  • I acknowledge you meant he was gradually getting his regular strength back, but I'm simply stating that he would never have reached his full power unless given days of rest (considering how ridiculous these characters are in tenacity).
2) Yes, Luffy took some beating, but even after Doflamingo used his threads to close his wounds, he suffered far worse. All of Luffy's injuries were superficial with the exception of some of Bellamy's on-panel punches and what Doflamingo had already done to him. He lost a fair bit of blood as well, of course. Doflamingo's consisted of: Severe burns through the abdomen and out the back (possibly burning his muscles, bones, and even his organs to an extent, as we see him spew some blood), being completely pierced (i believe) through the intestines and out the back by Law's Injection shot (he likely recovered from this rather quickly, though), The decimation of his organs and possibly his muscles via Gamma Knife, leading to massive blood loss and near-loss of consciousness, and many strikes directly to the affected area by Luffy throughout the rest of the fight.

  • It can hardly be compared regarding their conditions, and besides, Luffy has done marathon fights lasting 11-13 hours shortly after this, so does exhaustion really factor in here even moderately when he can fight in worse conditions for MUCH longer?
    • And Doffy's injuries on the inside consisted of two burning attacks via Red Hawk and Gamma Knife, and i SERIOUSLY doubt he could do much to tend to them.
      • Also, he had to divide his attention to his own body while fighting Luffy, so there's that possibly lowering his overall fighting capacity further.
3) (not 100% certain which this is referring to) His body was likely very tender after the attack (and yes, this would affect durability to an extent), and he still took hits from Gear 4th Luffy without much visible damage to his body. Yes, they really hurt him, but it required Luffy's King Kong Gun to actually keep him down.

  • The point is that Doffy, while his stamina was likely VERY low compared to his usual state, still managed to block and withstand several blows from Bound Man (His arms were not shown damaged upon taking Kong Gun, and his head didn't show anything more than a bruise from Rhino Schneider, and he withstood a Culverin. Leo Bazooka hit his weak-spot, and that was the only attack that actually seriously hurt him). Had the situation been different, he likely would have kept fighting quite intensely and took many more hits if not for having to deal with his already near-fatal injuries (fatal w/out his ability tending to it immediately).
    • But King Kong Gun likely one-shots anyways, who knows, but that's still >> Bound Man's normal attacks.
 
At this point we're just agreeing to disagree. Both sides gave their opinion and arguments as how the scaling'd be if we accept Issho's feat to scale characters.

@Cin and @Damage, please sum your arguments so I can call staff members to decide which case is better for the scaling. Otherwise, we'll be here forever and the series will end before we settle this part of the discussion.

Let's not forget that we have many different topics to cover yet.
 
K, basically my argument:

Gear 3rd Luffy scales from fighting competitively with Fujitora, who has a 1.9GT feat.

Doflamingo suggests Gear 4th Luffy to be "several times beyond his previous limit" in terms of power, and we have seen Doflamingo block an Elephant Gun quite casually.

Therefore, using the 3x multiplication, Gear 4th Luffy should be 6-C scaling above Gear 3rd, and Doflamingo should be "At least High 7-A, Possibly 6-C" scaling as being stronger than Gear 3rd Luffy, but weaker than Gear 4th Luffy (still able to give him a serious fight, though).

By extension, anyone scaling to Gear 4th Luffy will be 6-C.
 
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