One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #9

[Damage3245]

Okay, I guess my summary would be:

Luffy hits Fujitora once with Gear 3, and blocks one of his attacks with Gear 3. However he caused virtually no damage with the strike he used (and Fujitora's durability does not scale to 1.9 Gigatons) and there is no indication that the attack he blocked is equal to the 1.9 Gigaton lifting feat since Fujitora's attacks are usually much weaker.

Instead of relying solely on that fight, we should determine Luffy's ratings for now using his several other Gear 3 feats since the timeskip.

As for the multiplier, Doflamingo is not indicating that Luffy is surpassing his previous limit (i.e. Gear 3) when he is using the tensile force to increase the power of his punches. He is only referring to how compressing his limbs for his attacks creates attack of much greater power than if he had just punched normally while Gear 4 is active.

So all we know is that his attacks are definitely stronger than Gear 3, but not using an exact multiplier.

EDIT: I personally think that this is the safest approach.

 

[Dr.Fix]

>>

Instead of relying solely on that fight, we should determine Luffy's ratings for now using his several other Gear 3 feats since the timeskip.


@Damage your own research on Luffy as well as what is currently written in his profile already suggests gear 3 (even Gear 2) could be high 7-A. Issho being pushed back even with his guard just gives us a more definitive answer then "At Least 7-A+"


@Cin: I'm not interested in arguing over this because there's not much difference on either side and we have more topics to get into. Bottom line I gues we can agree to disagree about how much his injuries weakened him vs how much Luffy's injuries weakened him. It doesn't boad well fur Duffy's stats if he took more damage then Luffy did, but based on the final panels of the fight I'd say they were about even taking into account Duffy's healing and stat advantage throughout most of the battle (To be clear I mean even in terms of injury, not power).

 

[The_Calaca]

I've contacted Elizhaa, DarkDragonMedeus and Schnee One to give their input about this topic.

 

[Damage3245]

@Dr. Fix; I guess that depends on if pushing back Issho with his guard up is what qualifies as a baseline High 7-A feat.

But I really don't think Luffy's Gear 2 is portrayed as High 7-A at this point.

 

[Schnee_One]

I'm in agreement with Damage tbh

 

[The_Calaca]

@Fix Right, I forgot about that.

@Damage If Issho needed to guard up to prevent being damaged, then that's a pretty clear reason as why the scaling should work.

Your only reason to argue against it is that Issho doesn't scale to his power, and we've been over this lots of times with Pica and other characters. This'd imply that any newbie with a DF power'd have this kind of destructive power from the very beginning, and even the Logia type is tricky to control at its finest.

 

[Damage3245]

@Schnee One; thanks for the input.

@Calaca; characters not scaling physically to their own powers is extremely common. Even if there is a correlation, there is not necessarily a 1 to 1 link between the two.

For example; Fujitora's lifting feat with DF =/= Fujitora's physical lifting strength.

Pica's striking strength with stone golems =/= Pica's physical striking strength.

Some of this comes down to interpretation, but it seems a reasonable thing to consider.

 

[AstralKing7]

Did Luffy make isso bleed? Because iirc that's enough for him to technically scale compared to Saint Seiya who only scratches Apollo and caused only a small scar

 

[Elizhaa]

I think @Damage3245's view is the most correct interpretation.

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; no. On the last panel Fujitora has a tiny bruise, but the mark vanishes in the next chapter so it is miniscule damage if any.

Fujitora's durability is currently 7-A+ anyway.

@Elizhaa; thank you for the input.

 

[AstralKing7]

If it disappeared than I guess I agree with you since it seems irrelevant

 

[VioIeLFC]

I think Damage is spot on, especially in regards to G4.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Damage also makes sense to me as well.

 

[RexofLM]

Alright so with that said making Issho guard and pushing him back 7A+ or High 7A???

And if we arent using the multiplier we need to discuss and determine exactly what kind of power boost would take Luffy from getting stomped to stomping the opponent.

Cuz Doflamingo go throttled and couldnt do anything but stall thanks to awakenings range. Cracker was in the same boat he could only stall for time and keep luffy at bay. And Katakuri wasnt able to defend himself against boundman wothout being able to see the future and took Damage. So what are we doing here

 

[Damage3245]

From what I can tell it is at least a 7-A+ feat for now - so I don't think Luffy's ratings need to change regarding that for the time being.

Luffy's Gear 4 rating should still stay as High 7-A for being clearly superior to his Gear 3 attacks, but we'd remove the reference to his power being multiplied by three.

I don't think we need to say that Tankman: Full Version is " even higher" for the feat of defeating Cracker because Cracker hadn't even shown himself capable of tanking ordinary Gear 4 attacks.

 

[RexofLM]

Also need to go over how we view Luffy during the Kataluri fight. Since we know haki "blooms" in intense situations and luffy had a reactive power level without it (Being stronger between islands without training or developing) luffy struck Katakuri in base form twice during their fight both times seeming to cause minor damage. And in gear third with future sight he matched a power mochi. Consideringg his base could cause superficial damage and gear thirds A AP boost and what we know about haki i feel like luffy post the Katakuri scuffle is sitting on that 7A+ range in base.

 

[Damage3245]

We currently rate Whole Cake Island Arc Luffy in base as 7-A+ for causing some damage to Sanji despite being exhausted (Nakama power FTW).

Luffy hurting Katakuri slightly twice could be additional support for that rating.

 

[RexofLM]

And on that same note that punch might have been rifle in gear third. Theres the clear spinning lines oda makes when luffy rotates his arm for rifle.

 

[RexofLM]

We currently rate Whole Cake Island Arc Luffy in base as 7-A+ for causing some damage to Sanji despite being exhausted (Nakama power FTW).

Luffy hurting Katakuri slightly twice could be additional support for that rating.

Remind me did we have a multiplier for gear third or 2nd?

 

[Damage3245]

Remind me did we have a multiplier for gear third or 2nd?

No. We do not.

 

[RexofLM]

No. We do not.

So if g3 is a minor tier jump in dressrosa (7b to 7A to 7A+)

Would that same scaling carry over meaning its High 7A im Whole Cake and we could support this for matching Katakuris power mochi

 

[The_Calaca]

Can the staff members say something about G4 multiplier? Because they just said "yes, it's okay" but when I contacted them I talked about Issho's feat for scaling.

Plus, your argument doesn't change anything. Luffy still staggered Doffy without releasing the fist, and he had to use Haki to block the attack while an Elephant Gun was blocked by non-Haki threads, and the release increase the power by 3. So it's just a bigger difference if anything.

WCI Base Luffy's 7-A+ because of Katakuri, not because of Sanji. If so, that's an issue we need to fix. I've explained that Luffy didn't gain any powerup until he fought him, and as such, early WCI Luffy is the same as late Dressrosa Luffy. But it was used to support the Possibly Mountain+, while hurting Katakuri'd support the solid Mountain+.

 

[Damage3245]

@Calaca; Haki usage isn't always visible.

All we know is there wasn't visible Armament Haki on the Spider's Web.

Also, the Spider's Web durability =/= Doflamingo's durability.

The "multiplier" statement should no longer apply. Luffy's profile wouldn't change much from its current state.

 

[The_Calaca]

When Doffy uses Haki in his threads it's visible tho.

What's the basis to say that Doffy's durability =/= Spider Web's durability?

You're still ignoring that Doffy knows about Luffy's power and he explicitly stated that he was amplifying his power by 3x using the tensile force.

 

[Damage3245]

> What's the basis to say that Doffy's durability =/= Spider Web's durability?

They're two separate things... You'd need evidence to show that Doffy's durability = Spider Web's durability.

If Doflamingo could just raise his hand and stop an Elephant Gun in its tracks with his bare hands, why would he even deploy the Spider's Web? The result would have been the same either way.

> You're still ignoring that Doffy knows about Luffy's power and he explicitly stated that he was amplifying his power by 3x using the tensile force.

As I broke down up above, Doffy is not referring to Gear 3 as the power that is being multiplied through tensile force.

 

[RexofLM]

@Calaca; Haki usage isn't always visible.

All we know is there wasn't visible Armament Haki on the Spider's Web.

Also, the Spider's Web durability =/= Doflamingo's durability.

The "multiplier" statement should no longer apply. Luffy's profile wouldn't change much from its current state.

Are we sure haki usage isnt always visble. Can we find some concrete times post timeskip where a character uses haki and we dont see the hardening affect. Cuz to my current understanding oda made it visble after timeskip

 

[Damage3245]

@RexofLM; here is one example. And here is one more. Not sure if there are more, but those are the ones that come to mind first.

 

[RexofLM]

@RexofLM; here is one example. And here is one more. Not sure if there are more, but those are the ones that come to mind first.

The first one we have no indication that luffy or jinbe are using haki. Did you upload the wrong image.

The boo case is a good one i suppose although the effect could of disappeared once the blade broke.

Moreso ig i should rephrase what are the times that doflamingo used haki without showing it. Because hes shown to do ot frequently and i dont think we should just Assume hes using it invisibly when 98% of the other times he does so its shown.

 

[The_Calaca]

>I need to post evidence

Not quite. You're the one who's arguing against what the common sense says. You need to prove the difference between Spider Web and Doffy, because nothing implies that it exists.

Except for Birdcage (which discussion has been only ignored) no strings show any sign of being different in durability than Doffy sans the Black Knight that has only been completely destroyed once and has a Mid-Tier slashing its head and two morons stabbing him.

>Why Doffy used the Spider Web

Rule of Cool, or just using it to stop the big punch without risking if Luffy's stronger than he expects.

>Gear 3rd

Can you send the link for the post where you said this? I probably forgot about it.

>Second scan

Just one page before Jinbe stated that he can hurt Luffy without using Haki. There's no indication of him using it there.

Plus, visible Haki is always above non-visible Haki. Boo's abilities are unknown, and all we know is that he can use basic Haki. His level of proficiency is unknown.

 

[Damage3245]

@RexofLM; do you mean the second? And the reason why I think there's an indication of Haki is because Luffy is a rubber man yet he has that reaction to Jinbe's punch.

As for Doflamingo, I am not assuming he is using Haki there. I'm simply stating it is impossible to be 100% sure that there is no Haki involved.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

If this is a post time skip thread why is there some pre time skip stuff in the OP?

 

[The_Calaca]

On top of that, you have pointed that scene as a gag and that shouldn't be used to scale characters. If so, then Nami would get Haki since BoS since she has been seen consistently kicking Luffy's butt without being physically stronger than him.

 

[The_Calaca]

If this is a post time skip thread why is there some pre time skip stuff in the OP?

We've been discussing the whole series scaling, but we are currently working the Post Timeskip ratings.

 

[Damage3245]

@Calaca; the "common sense" defense doesn't work. There is no reason to automatically assume when a character creates some kind of shield that the shield is only as durable as they are.

I mentioned the multiplier bit in my summary up above. It seems like most people agreed with my breakdown.

And yes, I know it is a gag scene that shouldn't be used for scaling. That doesn't entirely discount the possibility of Haki being used in the gag scene.

I think that the multiplier needs to be dropped now, and we can get on with determining ratings.

@Tetsucabrah; It was mostly to keep track of all the calcs.

 

[RexofLM]

@RexofLM; do you mean the second? And the reason why I think there's an indication of Haki is because Luffy is a rubber man yet he has that reaction to Jinbe's punch.

As for Doflamingo, I am not assuming he is using Haki there. I'm simply stating it is impossible to be 100% sure that there is no Haki involved.

I possibly opened them in the wrong order.

We cant be 100% sure. But we cant just add in factors with no indication because it makes sense.

Doflamingos armament is visible in every scene that he uses it in. His limbs become darkened and when he utilizes it on strings they become darkened as well seen via awakened strings. There are several instances in the manga where doflamingo doesnt use haki and just cuts things with his string. We cannot use the argument haki isnt always visible for doflamingo blocking elephant gun because to put it simply theres absolutely no evidence pointing towards him using invisible haki. Everything points toward his strings just being stronger

 

[The_Calaca]

There's no reason to believe the shield must be far above the character's durability either.

I said that the staff members didn't say a thing about the multiplier. Like I said, I've contacted them to talk about the scaling, not the multiplier. They need to read more about it to decide, considering Cin didn't accounted it in his summary. That way we'd be applying ratings based on your PoV only and the staff wouldn't read the counter arguments.

It feels more like you're just cherrypicking there. Either we use everything or we use nothing. And like I said, Jinbe can bypass Luffy's resistance with Fishman Karate, so he doesn't need Haki at all, proving that invisible Haki isn't as consistent as you might argue. Even Rex pointed that the axe could have lost the coating after breaking on Bobby's back.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

If that's the case then I have some issues with the pre skip scaling.

For one, High 8-C early Nami and Usopp. I don't understand the justification for this. Like at all. It even says Mr. 4 is 8-C just for being physically superior to Usopp, which makes no sense. And also says Usopp should be stronger than Nami but I don't think that was ever the case til Usopp got his hands on the Skypiea dials.

Scaling Bon Clay and Daz Bones to Crocodile is also kinda iffy to me, but less so than the previous thing.

Scaling the priests, Wiper, and Zoro to Enel doesn't make much sense either.

 

[The_Calaca]

Usopp and Nami are High 8-C for their Arabasta keys comes from characters that don't have profiles.

Gem, better known as Mr. 5, was able to hurt Luffy with his explosions, and even Usopp was able to survive to them without being turned into a pulp. Mr. 4 broke Usopp's nose and Usopp was able to throw his hammer like a slingshot to defeat him.

Nami's scaling from Zala (Miss Doublefinger) who should be, at least, be stronger than Mr. 4, and Nami's scaling from Attack Potency mostly since she doesn't fight physically.

Daz Bonez and Bentham are backscaling from Crocodile. Luffy no-sold a Desert Spada and Zoro was shown comparable to him, and Sanji's also comparable to Zoro albeit weaker.

Enel shocked Sanji and Zoro and both were able to stand up and fight back, respectively. Ohm was able to hurt Zoro, and Shura is the only solid 7-C since the other two priests have two ratings.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Then you should update their profiles with that justification because the current justification makes 0 sense.

 

[The_Calaca]

I'll work on those profiles later.