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I'm getting tired of having to redo the scaling chain constantly, especially speed. Rather than continuing this thread with AP/Speed and making a Part 2, I'm just splitting it into 3 separate threads. Sorry for how messy this all is.
This first one will cover AP and the multipliers.
Keep in mind, the thread didn't take 5 months to come out, it was the scaling sandboxes. Due to repeated bullshit, I'm just saving at least the AP sandbox for after the main points are concluded. It should be faster that way.
Oh, and please remember not to rehash the same arguments without new evidence. I just want to get that out of the way so this thread doesn't last as long as the months-long discussion about it.
The only Demon Mark on our profiles that diverges massively from Meliodas' base is his Danafor key, but I can debunk this gap pretty quickly; base Unsealed Meliodas was able to survive Derieri's 54th Combo Star and Monspeet's Hell Phoenix, despite both attacks surpassing the attack power of his enlarged Demon Mark. Meliodas in this key can damage opponents stronger/more durable than him.
It's stated that Ash Hendrickson's power is simply Red Demon Hendrickson + a Grey Demon, which have been damaged by the likes of Gilthunder and Howzer. So Meliodas and co are just under 34 megatons. Supporting this, Helbram, whose magic was stated to be on par with a Holy Knight Captain at the time, has a 15.8 megaton feat.
Ban is accepted as being half as powerful as Meliodas here and in the previous thread, so anyone who physically scales to him is just under 17 megatons. Although far inferior to 17 megatons, it's also worth noting the Red Demon that Ban fought and killed has an almost 3.6 megaton feat.
Tarmiel created an ocean, which was accepted as 10.3 teratons (Country level).
Margaret was explicitly the perfect match for Ludoshel's magic power, yet even a weakened True Body Ludoshel did much more damage to a Crisis-amped Original Demon than Margoshel could perform on Chandler, Cusack and Zeldris. So we've agreed that all the Goddesses are >>>2x their vessels. 20.61 teratons (Country level).
Estarossa is accepted as being 1/2th the Archangel's vessels, which is substantiated by the fact that he was equal to them after absorbing a single Commandment. Estarossa = Post-Revival Meliodas. 5.15 teratons (Small Country level+).
The 2nd Demon Mark 4x multiplier was accepted here. 20.61 teratons (Country level).
2nd Mark Meliodas couldn't damage the Gloom Cocoon, and one-shot it by just transforming into Assault Mode (which actually occurred after Mel amped it even more with negative energy). Tristan, on the other hand, could already damage the cocoon (placing him above 2nd Mark) and merely sliced it in two with a 2-3 times Enchanter amp (see below for details). So, Assault Mode scales above Enchanter Tristan. 41.22 teratons (Country level).
Chandler, Cusack and Margoshel are all >>> Assault Mode Meliodas (who's superior to 2nd Mark), and Zeldris is comparable to an extent. 41.22 teratons (Country level).
Original Demon is Chandler + Cusack with an automatic crisis amp. 82.44 teratons (Country level+).
Weakened True Ludoshel stomped Original Demon, as I said previously. 82.44 teratons (Country level+).
Zeldris' 2nd Mark is 82.44 teratons (Country level+). This is substantiated by his performance against Mael, who's stronger than Ludoshel and Original Demon.
Post-Purgatory Meliodas stomped weakened DK Zeldris, who's logically stronger than Zeldris, wasn't far inferior to Demon King Meliodas (who god stomped Mael and almost killed Zeldris with one shot), and did about the same damage to him as Elizabeth (who's comparable to or stronger than the Archangels). 82.44 teratons (Country level+).
2nd Mark is 329.76 teratons (Large Country level).
50% DK alone Post-Purgatory Ban could fight PDK to the same extent as 2nd Mark Meliodas and King (who is, in fact, superior to base Post-Purgatory Meliodas because he's > Dahlia, who was as strong or stronger than 1st Mark Meliodas). 50% DK stomped Ban and Wild (who's stronger than Ban), and 100% DK is twice as strong, but weaker than PDK. 659.52 teratons (Large Country level+).
Estarossa = 5.15 teratons (Small Country level+).
Derieri = 2.6 teratons (Small Country level).
Base Unsealed Meliodas = 0.64 teratons (Large Island level+)
Galand could survive a serious beat down from Unsealed Mel and somewhat fight the Archangels, so he should be around this league rather than scaling to characters that he absolutely stomped. I think he and everyone in this section should have an at most, though.
Fortunately, there is a list of what magic actually qualifies as Destroyer/Enchanter. So I think we should have criteria for the amps.
Is it applicable?: As I said before, it's imbued within a weapon and increases the weapon's destructive power by imbuing it with magical traits. So, something like this or this isn't applicable. Additionally, this doesn't apply to a character's fists, as Percival could do that in the first few chapters.
Does it change the balance of power?: When Percival used an Enchanter amp, he could carve apart Cernuous' antlers with ease, despite only scratching them prior. As an example, Gilthunder (whose power is equal to Meliodas) commonly fights Meliodas with and without imbuing his weapon, yet it hardly changes their fight.
Outliers: Just because, for example, Demon King's Destroyer-amplified slashes did even less damage than his and (notice the hole in his stomach) Escanor's punches, does this mean a character shouldn't have Destroyer amps in general? No, that just means it's inconsistency, and DK should still have a 10x amp on his AP. However, characters like Gilthunder consistently don't display the amp during the prior to the Defensive Battle for Liones arc.
What invalidates the amp?: Meliodas' Full Counter only reflects indirect magic attacks, so it logically can't be applied to the amps. However, the attack reflecting off something like Perfect Cube is fine since that would rebound the entire destructive force of the attack.
Do they commonly use a weapon?: Elizabeth never uses a weapon, but does have the ability to amplify their attack power, while Mael/Estarossa can imbue his fists with Darkness/Light for Killing Saucer and did use a weapon at one point (just not in the series). Should they be given the amp?
I did have a list of all the instances of Enchanters/Destroyer magic amps in the series, but I lost it in editing. It doesn't matter anyway, because I have yet to see an instance that'd boost a characters scaling. We can just discuss that shit here.
To my knowledge, his only real durability feat is surviving after Elaine pushed him off the Sacred Tree, but even that was mostly because the forest was stopping him from getting killed. So he can't even survive that.
His durability should just be Unknown.
But this absolutely doesn't apply to Post-Purgatory Ban, who actually does have AP comparable to his durability.
No, because they focus on different types of magic. So let's get another comparison.
Estarossa (whose magic is greater than his physicals) has a magic power of 3,000, and King's magic is 3,370.
Basically, we shouldn't just automatically assume someone is more powerful than another character simply by virtue of having superior magic power.
I will elaborate on the characters affected by this later.
This first one will cover AP and the multipliers.
Keep in mind, the thread didn't take 5 months to come out, it was the scaling sandboxes. Due to repeated bullshit, I'm just saving at least the AP sandbox for after the main points are concluded. It should be faster that way.
Oh, and please remember not to rehash the same arguments without new evidence. I just want to get that out of the way so this thread doesn't last as long as the months-long discussion about it.
Making the Demon Mark Consistent
We honestly have no reason to believe that Demon Mark isn't a consistent multiplier, especially since 2nd Demon Mark was already accepted as being a 2x amp, and nothing suggests there's some wild gap in power between each appearance.The only Demon Mark on our profiles that diverges massively from Meliodas' base is his Danafor key, but I can debunk this gap pretty quickly; base Unsealed Meliodas was able to survive Derieri's 54th Combo Star and Monspeet's Hell Phoenix, despite both attacks surpassing the attack power of his enlarged Demon Mark. Meliodas in this key can damage opponents stronger/more durable than him.
Explanation
The Red Demon's 63 megaton feat was debunked in another thread. Also, Tarmiel's calculation has been upgraded to 10.3 Teratons.BoS Characters
We have this feat, where Albion slices a mountain in two. This places Albion and Ash Hendrickson (also Demon Meliodas, to a lesser extent, since he hurt a weakened Hendy far beyond Gideon or King's attack power) at over 67.7 megatons.It's stated that Ash Hendrickson's power is simply Red Demon Hendrickson + a Grey Demon, which have been damaged by the likes of Gilthunder and Howzer. So Meliodas and co are just under 34 megatons. Supporting this, Helbram, whose magic was stated to be on par with a Holy Knight Captain at the time, has a 15.8 megaton feat.
Ban is accepted as being half as powerful as Meliodas here and in the previous thread, so anyone who physically scales to him is just under 17 megatons. Although far inferior to 17 megatons, it's also worth noting the Red Demon that Ban fought and killed has an almost 3.6 megaton feat.
Ten Commandments Arc - Onwards (Upscaling)
This one is a bit more complicated.Tarmiel created an ocean, which was accepted as 10.3 teratons (Country level).
Margaret was explicitly the perfect match for Ludoshel's magic power, yet even a weakened True Body Ludoshel did much more damage to a Crisis-amped Original Demon than Margoshel could perform on Chandler, Cusack and Zeldris. So we've agreed that all the Goddesses are >>>2x their vessels. 20.61 teratons (Country level).
Estarossa is accepted as being 1/2th the Archangel's vessels, which is substantiated by the fact that he was equal to them after absorbing a single Commandment. Estarossa = Post-Revival Meliodas. 5.15 teratons (Small Country level+).
The 2nd Demon Mark 4x multiplier was accepted here. 20.61 teratons (Country level).
2nd Mark Meliodas couldn't damage the Gloom Cocoon, and one-shot it by just transforming into Assault Mode (which actually occurred after Mel amped it even more with negative energy). Tristan, on the other hand, could already damage the cocoon (placing him above 2nd Mark) and merely sliced it in two with a 2-3 times Enchanter amp (see below for details). So, Assault Mode scales above Enchanter Tristan. 41.22 teratons (Country level).
Chandler, Cusack and Margoshel are all >>> Assault Mode Meliodas (who's superior to 2nd Mark), and Zeldris is comparable to an extent. 41.22 teratons (Country level).
Original Demon is Chandler + Cusack with an automatic crisis amp. 82.44 teratons (Country level+).
Weakened True Ludoshel stomped Original Demon, as I said previously. 82.44 teratons (Country level+).
Zeldris' 2nd Mark is 82.44 teratons (Country level+). This is substantiated by his performance against Mael, who's stronger than Ludoshel and Original Demon.
Post-Purgatory Meliodas stomped weakened DK Zeldris, who's logically stronger than Zeldris, wasn't far inferior to Demon King Meliodas (who god stomped Mael and almost killed Zeldris with one shot), and did about the same damage to him as Elizabeth (who's comparable to or stronger than the Archangels). 82.44 teratons (Country level+).
2nd Mark is 329.76 teratons (Large Country level).
50% DK alone Post-Purgatory Ban could fight PDK to the same extent as 2nd Mark Meliodas and King (who is, in fact, superior to base Post-Purgatory Meliodas because he's > Dahlia, who was as strong or stronger than 1st Mark Meliodas). 50% DK stomped Ban and Wild (who's stronger than Ban), and 100% DK is twice as strong, but weaker than PDK. 659.52 teratons (Large Country level+).
- Substantiating this, The One Escanor easily tanked attacks from Post-Revival Assault Mode Meliodas when his blade was amp 10x (see below), and can trade blows with Youth Zeldris Demon King, who's capable of harming him.
Ten Commandments Arc - Onwards (Downscaling)
Basically, I'm just taking this scaling and refitting it.Estarossa = 5.15 teratons (Small Country level+).
Derieri = 2.6 teratons (Small Country level).
Base Unsealed Meliodas = 0.64 teratons (Large Island level+)
Galand could survive a serious beat down from Unsealed Mel and somewhat fight the Archangels, so he should be around this league rather than scaling to characters that he absolutely stomped. I think he and everyone in this section should have an at most, though.
Enchantment/Destroyer Amplification
Lancelot explains this simply; when magic is added to a weapon (like so), its destructive power is amplified exponentially. Enchanter-type magic increases its destructive power 2 to 3-fold, while Destroyer-type is nearly 10x more powerful. This explicitly applies to the weapon itself when used in conjunction, not the magic imbued within, also meaning that this shouldn't be applicable to Full Counter amps.Fortunately, there is a list of what magic actually qualifies as Destroyer/Enchanter. So I think we should have criteria for the amps.
Is it applicable?: As I said before, it's imbued within a weapon and increases the weapon's destructive power by imbuing it with magical traits. So, something like this or this isn't applicable. Additionally, this doesn't apply to a character's fists, as Percival could do that in the first few chapters.
Does it change the balance of power?: When Percival used an Enchanter amp, he could carve apart Cernuous' antlers with ease, despite only scratching them prior. As an example, Gilthunder (whose power is equal to Meliodas) commonly fights Meliodas with and without imbuing his weapon, yet it hardly changes their fight.
Outliers: Just because, for example, Demon King's Destroyer-amplified slashes did even less damage than his and (notice the hole in his stomach) Escanor's punches, does this mean a character shouldn't have Destroyer amps in general? No, that just means it's inconsistency, and DK should still have a 10x amp on his AP. However, characters like Gilthunder consistently don't display the amp during the prior to the Defensive Battle for Liones arc.
What invalidates the amp?: Meliodas' Full Counter only reflects indirect magic attacks, so it logically can't be applied to the amps. However, the attack reflecting off something like Perfect Cube is fine since that would rebound the entire destructive force of the attack.
Do they commonly use a weapon?: Elizabeth never uses a weapon, but does have the ability to amplify their attack power, while Mael/Estarossa can imbue his fists with Darkness/Light for Killing Saucer and did use a weapon at one point (just not in the series). Should they be given the amp?
I did have a list of all the instances of Enchanters/Destroyer magic amps in the series, but I lost it in editing. It doesn't matter anyway, because I have yet to see an instance that'd boost a characters scaling. We can just discuss that shit here.
Miscellaneous
Combining Albion's Profiles
At this point, there's no need for an Albion I and II profile since their the main point of everyone's AP. They should just be combined.Downgrading Pre-Purgatory Ban's Durability
Ban can't take hits from Unsealed Base Meliodas, even while amped by Snatch (simultaneously weakening Meliodas). He's a massive glass cannon who (despite weirdly being able to survive his own attack recoil) gets half his body obliterated by Dale, and stabbed fodder Holy Knights/children with pitchforks.To my knowledge, his only real durability feat is surviving after Elaine pushed him off the Sacred Tree, but even that was mostly because the forest was stopping him from getting killed. So he can't even survive that.
His durability should just be Unknown.
But this absolutely doesn't apply to Post-Purgatory Ban, who actually does have AP comparable to his durability.
Scaling Magic Power
Fun fact. Derieri has a magic power of 1,500, and Izraf has a magic power of 2,080. Does this mean Izraf > Derieri.No, because they focus on different types of magic. So let's get another comparison.
Estarossa (whose magic is greater than his physicals) has a magic power of 3,000, and King's magic is 3,370.
Basically, we shouldn't just automatically assume someone is more powerful than another character simply by virtue of having superior magic power.
I will elaborate on the characters affected by this later.
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