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Final NNT Thread - Part 1

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ByAsura

ByAsura

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Sorry this thread is very messy, I just have a lot of stuff to cover.

I'll make a full sandbox when all the changes are agreed or debunked.

We should probably drop the Danafor calculation in general. There's a lot of debate surrounding which version of Meliodas destroyed it exactly.

Zeldris Cursed By Light Key​

Zeldris was unapologetically portrayed as equal to Meliodas throughout the film, such as having the same performance against SD, Dahlia and Dubs. He also wouldn't have God, as that's magic from the Demon King, or his Commandment, and was portrayed as vulnerable to SD's magic attacks.

He should get another key for this stage.

Separating Holy War and/or Post-Time Skip Meliodas​

I talked here about separating these keys. I suggested separating both, but there was some disagreement that it's too much, which I find pretty arbitrary since even Post-Time Skip Meliodas would have 2 keys and there's definitely plenty of differences between these forms.

Some Amps​

I'm putting these here because they'll be very important for later.

Goddess Amps​

All Goddesses are superior to whatever vessel they possess.
Q325Does the strength of the Goddess Clan change when they're possessing a human versus when they're not?Depending on the compatibility their strength changes but fundamentally, of course, their original form is stronger.
Ludoshel explicitly describes Margaret as the perfect vessel, and says that she's compatible with his magical powers. Vessel Ludoshel didn't do that much damage to Chandler and Cusack, while a weakened True Form Ludoshel was overpowering and torturing the Original Demon to the point where he was taking actual damage.

Edit: Since Crisis activates just as a result of regaining his form, it's an even larger multiplier than 2x.

Even if they have the perfect vessels, which isn't the case with Nerobasta, Zaneri, Jenna, Tarmiel and Sariel, Goddesses should be more than twice as strong as their vessels.

2nd Demon Mark​

It's shown in Cursed By Light that Post-Purgatory Meliodas' normal Demon Mark is identical to his BoS series self, and that he can enlarge it to form the circular Demon Mark we see throughout the later series, gaining significantly more power in the process. This means that his more massive Demon Marks across the later portions of the series are all 2nd Demon Marks, and that he can activate it instantly.

Since Zeldris' 2nd mark (which is smaller than even Ten Commandments Arc Meliodas' mark) is a 2x multiplier, we can apply this same logic to Meliodas.

Keep in mind, this downscales Meliodas just as much as it upgrades him.

True Magic and Assault Mode​

Firstly, it's not remotely stated that Assault Mode is comparable to The Ultimate One Escanor in terms of power. He does blitz Escanor at one point, but he also keeps up with him at every point later. As for the supposed damage he does, it's at best a few scratches while he's using a Sacred Treasure, and that's assuming it's just him alone.

Secondly, there's no proof Zeldris is referring to DK's full power, and it makes very little sense because Griamore made the same statement and could have only been referring to a lesser form. We should just say 'Superior to the Demon King', and leave it at that.

BoS/Base Galand AP Scaling​

New Calculation​

I've done a new end of the Ban calculation, increasing it from 3.6 megatons to almost 64. Mitch has accepted it, so any character that now scales to Red Demons or Ban will be City level+.

Holy Knights = ~6.3 megatons (City level)

Red Demon = 63.7748111855 Megatons (City level+)

Meliodas is twice as strong as Ban via this thread. 127.549622371 Megatons (Mountain level)

Red Demon Hendrickson added the power of a Grey Demon, so he's twice as strong as Meliodas. 255.099244742 Megatons (Mountain level)
Demon Meliodas caved in his chest after he was slightly weakened. So Demon Mark is a 2x multiplier. 255.099244742 Megatons (Mountain level)
Albion is on par with Grey Hendrickson. 255.099244742 Megatons (Mountain level)

Albion took its own Full Counter with moderate injury, and Lostvayne was slicing it up with air slashes. 510.198489484 Megatons (Mountain level)

Even with his Demon Mark amplifier and a stronger Berserker form with a power level over 10,000, Meliodas couldn't damage Galand using Lostvayne. 1.02039697897 Gigatons (Large Mountain level)

This scaling is substantiated by a Gideon-wielding Post-Training Diane with a power level of 8,000, who previously did no damage to Hendrickson with Gideon (putting BoS Lostvayne above Pre-Training Gideon Diane, despite her having a strength advantage even at near-human sizes), one-shotting an Albion.

Speaking of which, Post-Training Diane with Gideon is 510.198489484 Megatons (Mountain level)

Unarmed PT Diane and Matrona have much higher power levels than Albions/Hendrickson. 255.099244742 Megatons (Mountain level)

Ban had over half of Galand's physical power. 510.198489484 Megatons (Mountain level)

Melascula withstood Ban's attack. 510.198489484 Megatons (Mountain level)

I'm also planning to give everyone from Galand) and above (excluding Diane and Matrona) a likely far higher, since it's pretty clear he's much closer to the Commandments than any of the Sins.

Tarmiel AP Scaling (Currently Obsolete)​

Continued from this thread.

Vessel Tarmiel generated an ocean. 1.043582982790 Teratons (Small Country level)

As I mentioned, Goddesses get a 2x multiplier.

True Tarmiel. 2.08716596558 Teratons (Small Country level)

Vessel Ludoshel should be more powerful than them, as he has a power level of 201,000, and Hawk, who was specifically terrified of this power level, only ever mentioned that Mael gained a power exceeding 200,000 after he attained a form far more powerful than his 3 Commandments state (capable of fighting both Tarmiel and Sariel already).

True Ludoshel. 4.17433193116 Teratons (Small Country level+)

Meliodas did way better against 50% Demon King (who overpowered Ban, making him stronger than Demon King Meliodas) than Mael against Meliodas Demon King, and effortlessly curbstomped a form of Demon King Zeldris that was stronger than when he claimed his power wasn't far inferior to his Meliodas self due to absorbing magic from Lake Sailsbury.

Demon Mark is a 2x multiplier. 8.34866386232 Teratons (Country level)

2nd Demon Mark is another 2x multiplier. 16.6973277246 Teratons (Country level)

2nd Demon Meliodas struggled against Supreme Deity even with a fully-functioning Lostvayne (it's shown to make clones in Cursed by Light) and help from Zeldris, and is about equal to Ban whom the 50% Demon King overpowered. 33.3946554493 Teratons (Country level).

Downscaling​

Weaker characters than Tarmiel and Sariel must scale to this value to some extent, as the likes of Drole and Gloxinia harmed True Form Chandler (keep in mind, the entire arc this is in took place over less than 3 days, so Chandler wouldn't be vastly inferior to his fight against Ludoshel's team), Derieri could harm Mael with a few Combo Star attacks, the Ten Commandments (all of whom have confirmed power levels, only the very strongest of which being above Demon Meliodas) put up a pretty good fight against them, and weaker Sins were able to at least contribute against Mael and the Demon King.

But isn't this totally inconsistent given their performance against Demon Meliodas, whom Gloxinia did virtually no harm to with his strongest attack? Unlike most of the Ten Commandments, Gloxinia and Drole focus their offence and defences on magic. The Goddess Seal would have sapped a huge portion of that. In actuality, Drole is on par with Diane, whose physical strength is exactly equal to Demon Meliodas.

Also, to say that Estarossa just amplified his power by dozens of times with a single Commandment is completely illogical, and contradicted by the fact that 3 Commandments Estarossa could still be carved apart by the Archangels.

Now, let's get into the downscaling.

Estarossa, of course, is inferior to Tarmiel and Sariel, but we'll assume he's equal just for our purposes. 1.043582982790 Teratons (Small Country level)

Derieri can tank her own Full Counters, and both Estarossa and Post-Time Skip base Meliodas could fatally/semi-fatally injure her. So we can downscale her to well under half of the Archangels. 521.79149139 Gigatons (Large Island level)

2nd Mark Meliodas has a higher power level and withstood a considerable Combo Star barrage from her, so we can downscale his base by 4x. 130.44787284 Gigatons (Large Island level)

So, Large Island level for Estarossa, Derieri, Drole, etc makes sense, imo, and maybe Island level or at most Large Island level works for Ten Commandments Arc Base Meliodas.

Upscaling​

Weaker Goddesses​

We agreed in this thread that the Goddesses' light magic shouldn't scale to their ability to damage Demons. There's some consistency to how strong they are, though.

- Humans, on average, had much more magic power in the past, and Goddesses were able to fight Rou in the past. I think we can confidently scale Goddesses above weaker Holy Knights.

- In Cursed By Light, one of the True Body fodder Goddesses that was easily stomped by Gilthunder and Howzer w/Sacred Treasures managed to one-shot Guila with a blast. Rou's fight with a Goddesses shows that humans comparable to Goddesses can withstand their blasts.

- The Celestials are far weaker than Goddesses and can barely manifest an Ark, so even Vessel Goddesses should be stronger than them. Celestials like Zoria, despite being weaker than them, can kill Red/Grey Demons and harm amped Grey Demons.
  • The Celestial Winged People are currently living in a small way in the Heavenly Realm - consisting of countless floating islands - where the Goddess Tribe once built their prosperity. They are the descendants of the Goddess Tribe who survived the Holy War, and their wings have shrunk in size and their magical powers have diminished considerably. The Tennenkyojin boy with glasses is the prototype of Solada, who appears in the film. His rival(?) The first one to be considered as a rival(?) was the chief's son Dora. His appearance is used almost as it is for the leader of the Six Black Knights, Berlion. The stage was also narrowed down from the countless floating islands (Sky Palace) to one.
- Zaneri and Jenna, both of whom has magic power on par with Vivian, are far younger than Goddesses like Nerobasta. But they also see the power of even Ban as ridiculously overwhelming.

So, I think we can reasonably scale them to City level.

Speed Scaling​

Thread here. Basically, Flash allows both Ludoshel's forms moves at the speed of light. But we've agreed that it only works in short bursts.

I don't personally agree with this scaling, exactly. This is sort of just an example of some stuff we already discussed so we can maybe improve upon it below.

Meliodas = Mach 2,607.79 (Massively Hypersonic+)

As we established above, Ash Hendrickson is a 2-fold amp. Mach 5,215.58 (Massively Hypersonic+)

Tarmiel and Sariel also have 2x amps. 1.2% SoL (Sub-Relativistic)

Cusack doesn't scale to Flash. Ludoshel was superior to him normally, weakened during their fight, and completely dominated Original Demon with a Flash that's confirmed to be equal. However, OD gets a 2x amp. 2.4% SoL (Sub-Relativistic)

2nd Demon Mark is also a 2x amp. 2.4% SoL (Sub-Relativistic)

As Ludoshel's True Form without Flash. 2.4% SoL (Sub-Relativistic)

Flash = SoL

Even without his 2nd Demon Mark, Zeldris was able to almost keep up with Flash in terms of just combat speed because his swordsmanship is faster than other Demons. Relativistic+

Ominous Nebula is also half as fast as his 2nd Mark that's potentially faster than Flash. Possibly/likely Relativistic+.

2nd Demon Mark doubles his combat speed. FTL

2nd Mark + Ominous Nebula potentially surpasses Flash. Possibly FTL

Mael curbstomped 2nd Mark Zeldris before his rage amp. FTL.

Base Meliodas is faster than Mael, and Demon Meliodas is faster 4x than that. This makes sense, because Ban reacted to attacks that blitzed Mael, and DK Mel is comparable to Ban in speed. >4x SoL (FTL)

100% Deities are 2x faster. >8x SoL (FTL)
 
Last edited:
Ludoshel explicitly describes Margaret as the perfect vessel, and says that she's compatible with his magical powers. Vessel Ludoshel didn't do that much damage to Chandler and Cusack, while a weakened True Form Ludoshel was overpowering and torturing the Original Demon to the point where it activated Crisis.
Click to expand...

Even if they have the perfect vessels, which isn't the case with Nerobasta, Zaneri, Jenna, Tarmiel and Sariel, Goddesses should be more than twice as strong as their vessels.
Click to expand...

Not sure about all of them being 2x stronger outside of their vessels. Ludoshel used a physical strike on the two Demons and didn't significantly damage them, whereas Ludoshel used magical attacks to harm the Original Demon.
 
Ludoshel also casually blocked amped attacks with telekinesis and physical attacks with ark, so it'd be a roughly 2x multiplier anyway.

Plus, even the Ten Commandments have resisted Goddess magic from the Archangels, so I doubt it'd make a significant difference.
 
I agree with everything so far but crisis was activated from the very instant the OD was formed because of his punishment. Can you make a second key for Zeldris? And maybe his holy wartime version is not that inferior to his movie version since it was just a few years at most.
 
speedster352 said:
I agree with everything so far but crisis was activated from the very instant the OD was formed because of his punishment.
Click to expand...
That's not stated. It's even implied to be his innate magic, akin to Meliodas' transformation and Zeldris' Ominous Nebula.
speedster352 said:
Can you make a second key for Zeldris?
Click to expand...
I forgot about that. Definitely. I'll add it to the OP.
speedster352 said:
And maybe his holy wartime version is not that inferior to his movie version since it was just a few years at most.
Click to expand...
It's objectively inferior, though.
 
ByAsura said:
That's not stated. It's even implied to be his innate magic, akin to Meliodas' transformation and Zeldris' Ominous Nebula.

I forgot about that. Definitely. I'll add it to the OP.

It's objectively inferior, though.
Click to expand...
Okay that's fine. I agree with Zeldris being weaker but it shouldn't be too big of a gap or it will lead to scaling problems so possibly or likely higher should be put for his first key. To be fair a few years is too generous given that tristian wasn't even born and Meliodas and Elizabeth were still going on their honeymoon so it's probably just a few months. Also could you give some input on mine and rabbit's crt? When would the part 2 come out? When this is done or later?
 
Correction on my part, it was stated. But that'd actually increase the size of the amp even further, so it supports my point since Ludo was explicitly causing damage as well.

It's just a 4x gap. There's no scaling problems.

Later.

When we've concluded this.
 
ByAsura said:
Correction on my part, it was stated. But that'd actually increase the size of the amp even further, so it supports my point.

It's just a 4x gap. There's no scaling problems.

Later.

When we've concluded this.
Click to expand...
Well all I am saying is that the timeframe between the holy war and cursed by the light was very short maybe months to a year. Also Zeldris lost god presumably so he lost extra power including his commandment. For the time being if a second key to Zeldris is made the first key should be listed as likely or possibly higher in his speed and ap probably not his durability.
 
Given that it contradicts the scaling elsewhere, I have to say no.

It doesn't make a lot of sense that he's so much more powerful, but he objectively is. It's just the writers of the film forgetting small details, like that Lostvayne was supposed to not work.
 
I wondered something: if vessel Tarmiel is small country and weaker than near noon Escanor, shouldn't pre purg AM Meliodas be Country+?
I mean he took near noon Escanor down with 2 strikes. The last strike sent him flying and bouncing across the cube (imagine where he would land if the cube wasn't there).

Doesn't this mean that pre purg AM Meliodas striking strength is potentially country+ or even large country?
 
VsReferee said:
I wondered something: if vessel Tarmiel is small country and weaker than near noon Escanor, shouldn't pre purg AM Meliodas be Country+?
I mean he took near noon Escanor down with 2 strikes. The last strike sent him flying and bouncing across the cube.

Doesn't this mean that pre purg AM Meliodas striking strength is potentially country+ or even large country?
Click to expand...
No. That's just random upscaling.

Also, the gap between True Form Tarmiel to Country level+ is over a dozen times.
speedster352 said:
So how amny more people need to agree? Have any mods seen this?
Click to expand...
There's not some specific number.

1 mod.
 
ByAsura said:
No. That's just random upscaling.

Also, the gap between True Form Tarmiel to Country level+ is over a dozen times.

There's not some specific number.

1 mod.
Click to expand...
About the DK constructs that were capable of one shotting the sins and the archangels and blitzing 2nd demon mark Zeldris would they scale to demon king or will demon king scale to or above them?
 
He'd probably scale above them if he can just spit them out with no power loss.

Also, the Sins one-shot one of DK Zeldris' larger constructs with a combo, whereas he could at least survive these kinds of attacks.
 
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