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Nasuverse: Noble Phantasm Revisions Continued

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LehenDuo said:
Yeah, that time Saber blew Prelati Book's big summon with Excalibur
She could TOTALLY have done that with a normal attack, both attacks are definitely in the same magnitude...
Come on people, stop pretending this is actually something well defined and not a shit show of contradictions depending on what you consider as ''more cannon''. It seeems everyone forgets that Iskandar's Gordius Wheel only reaches low 400kmph (continue ad nauseaum examples were contradictions are thrown in ou faces but no one cares)
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Yeah it's almost like she specifically needed an anti-fortress weapon specifically because of its regenerative capabilities and other characters were casually capable of damaging it with normal attacks

Also

A) Scan for Gordius Wheel speed
B) This is a negative outlier contradicted by the myriad of MHS and higher feats that are more consistent by a wide margin. Hell, 400kph is subsonic when in the literal same series Saber and Lancer surpassed the speed of sound.
 
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To say this another way, a Noble Phantasm is the trump card of a heroic spirit, but I'd like you to show me how often one is used and it instantly delete a servant.
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Didn't Artoria one-shot Medusa with Excalibur in Fates route?
 
SuperKamiNappa said:
Didn't Artoria one-shot Medusa with Excalibur in Fates route?
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Rider was being powered by Shinji at the time, IE extremely nerfed and weakened. Hell, her endurance was a paltry E-Rank. So you have one of the weakest servants being hit directly by one of the most powerful noble phantasms, a sword with a higher rank than Bellerophon in the first place.

Now go look at the heaven's feel route, where Salter gets bonked directly by Bellerophon, an A+ Noble Phantasm, and she's only weakened afterwards. Shirou outright said that if he didn't kill her right then and their that she'd get back up. Or, look at Nero tanking Excalibur Galatine. Twice.
 
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So we have so far, as the only evidence brought forward against NP scaling to servants

An extremely weak version of a servant having her NP beaten out, and dying to Excalibur.

Then in another route, with the help of Rho Aias defending it, Bellerophon was able to hit Salter through Excalibur, and didn't even kill her, so I'm not sure how much that example really holds up, but even giving it to you, thats one versus however many go in favor of servants being relative.

As it stands now, it's been shown and agreed on by most of the knowledgeables in the thread that servants are relative to their NPs. It's also been shown, through the number of feats, that NPs somewhere in tier 6 are more consistent than 7-B. You can not have both NPs higher than 7-B and servants who don't backscale from them at all, unless you can prove that the multiple things pointing to them being relative are the inconsistencies, and not the other way around.
 
As it seem that all people are okay that NP are tier We should now decide which calc we should use tho at least finish this part
 
The NP that are physycal techniques would be the most easily to backscale, now things like beams and so could be difficult to decide how much backscale the servant, sevants with Mana Burst should be close to they NP even if it's a beam.
 
I nominated Fafnir/Balmung Low 6-B calc, because it directly scales to many Servants related to dragons, including Saber Alter, Jeanne Alter, and Siegfried.
Any reasoning to prefer an other calc?

There are different principles and ideas for how to do the backscaling (with me preferring Excalibur being seven times more powerful than Berserker's durability), but let's focus on deciding the NP first.
 
I also support use the Siegfried calc because scale easily with other servants, like for example Mordred who fighted him and because of his dragon blood Siegfried should had been powered, and with Mordred we can also scale other round table knights.
 
Well if we choose the Laputa calc like I recommended, you'd be able to scale that to the NPs

Then you'd be able to scale servant physicals to the NPs via servants well, surviving NPs. Their durability would downscale, and then the AP of servants would scale to the durability via them being able to hurt eachother. As for the amount to backscale, you got me there, we used to do like 5x or something for Gawain barely surviving the Lion King's hit (fun fact, nothing implies he was near death after the hit like we assumed, he's fine when we see him next), so maybe somewhere around there?

Or you could just do the Excalibur Herc method again where he's like 1/7th of Excalibur because he died 7 times to it or whatever.

Either way the idea is Laputa calc scales to NPs, servants downscale from the NPs, you could go with scaling it to their durability and then their durability to AP, or just scale it directly to their AP, doesn't matter in the end. That'd be general scaling, then exceptions could be noted, such as servants whose NPs are literally just physical hits could scale closer or whatever.

If you choose the dragon calc I guess you can scale it like above, but meh
 
Actually a good thing that most of the calcs are baseline in their tiers so servants end up downscaling to decently high within the previous tier
 
Paul_Frank said:
Well if we choose the Laputa calc like I recommended, you'd be able to scale that to the NPs

Then you'd be able to scale servant physicals to the NPs via servants well, surviving NPs. Their durability would downscale, and then the AP of servants would scale to the durability via them being able to hurt eachother. As for the amount to backscale, you got me there, we used to do like 5x or something for Gawain barely surviving the Lion King's hit (fun fact, nothing implies he was near death after the hit like we assumed, he's fine when we see him next), so maybe somewhere around there?

Or you could just do the Excalibur Herc method again where he's like 1/7th of Excalibur because he died 7 times to it or whatever.

Either way the idea is Laputa calc scales to NPs, servants downscale from the NPs, you could go with scaling it to their durability and then their durability to AP, or just scale it directly to their AP, doesn't matter in the end. That'd be general scaling, then exceptions could be noted, such as servants whose NPs are literally just physical hits could scale closer or whatever.

If you choose the dragon calc I guess you can scale it like above, but meh
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Wouldn't it be better to scale Herc to 1/8th with 1/7th being his absolute limit he could take before dying? Logic being Excalibur could kill him 7 times, but not 8?
 
Hmm, child Fergus was buffed in some way when destroying Laputa (sorry, Agartha was one of the few things I skipped)? As far I remember Fergus child was weaker than adult Fergus, so that feat would be weaker than if it was done by his adult self? If we use it just as it in case he isn't buffed and the power was equal to his adult version, then I think would be alright to use it, though in cases like when a servant is powered against x trait, like in the case of Siegfried, should be note the higher AP, because Siegfried was powered in his fight with Mordred for her dragon blood then his NP in their fight should be Low 6-B in which case I think that should be safe to also scale the round table to that.
 
ZephyrosOmega said:
Rider was being powered by Shinji at the time, IE extremely nerfed and weakened. Hell, her endurance was a paltry E-Rank. So you have one of the weakest servants being hit directly by one of the most powerful noble phantasms, a sword with a higher rank than Bellerophon in the first place.

Now go look at the heaven's feel route, where Salter gets bonked directly by Bellerophon, an A+ Noble Phantasm, and she's only weakened afterwards. Shirou outright said that if he didn't kill her right then and their that she'd get back up. Or, look at Nero tanking Excalibur Galatine. Twice.
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iirc it was Rho Aias which protect Medusa from excalibur
 
This thread is basically a circle jerk at this point, nothing is ever gonna get settled
 
Because we keep saying the same things over and over again

Point is, nothing will get done cause nobody can agree
 
I dont know if cirlce jerk is the right term but you are right, this argument is going nowhere it seems.
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Because we keep saying the same things over and over again

Point is, nothing will get done cause nobody can agree
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We have all alredy agree for the NP tier 6 at least can we just make it? Because nobody seem too, to try to get this finished

We can just talk about scalling after (and for the not agree the one that don't really agree is you and Ion because you two don't want a scalling or little backscaling when we want a backscaling that alredy proved many time and not the 1 million NP stronger that is not proven for most of NP)
 
I wouldn't say no one can agree

In fact the majority do agree, we just can't get a unanimous agreement because of the few people who disagree for no reason other than not liking it. We just need to pick the NP value to scale to, which currently seems to either be the Laputa thing or the Dragon thing since those are like, the only two that have been brought up.
 
I think is fine use the Laputa calc for NP in generals and the Dragon one for servants against specific traits in case their NP is stronger against X trait, but I also think that the NP of Mordred should Low 6-B for equalize Sigfried in their fight, and because of that the Round Table should also be Low 6-B.
 
Doesn't Mordred have draogn traits due to being King Arthurs child or is the whole Arthur being relatable to a dragon like a metaphor? I don't remember the details but i think the original stay night route had something about it.

Edit: yeah if Mordred inheirted Artorias genes. then she should have some dragon traits. so siegfriend should be buffed for that fight right?

"Also, King Arthur is the red dragon that protects Britain.
Due to an arrangement her father, King Uther Pendragon, made with Merlin to produce an heir bearing the essence of a dragon, Artoria was born as a human infused with a dragon’s magical energy."

Saber | TMdict

www.tmdict.com www.tmdict.com
 
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Because of his draong blood is why I say that Mordred is Low 6-B for equal Siegfried, if she is so then Arthur obviously is also Low 6-B which would futher explain why Medusa would die if it wasn't protected by Rho Aias, aside from the fact that his Endurance is at best D and E with a bad master.
 
Mordred does have the Dragon trait. The question is did Balmung get the buff when it clashed with Clarent Blood Arthur? I ask because the beam isn't a dragon, Mordred is.
 
But it is a dragon's breath. Clarent Blood Arthur is a beam from a sword. I think we'd be making too many assumptions to scale CBA to Dragon's Breath.
 
Mageman460 said:
But it is a dragon's breath. Clarent Blood Arthur is a beam from a sword. I think we'd be making too many assumptions to scale CBA to Dragon's Breath.
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It's a attack from a dragon (Mordred) with the energy of said dragon (the Mana Burst of Mordred), in a fight against a dragon, and if Balmung surpass the blast it would impact Mordred which mean that it have the motivation of harm a dragon, I think it's safe to say that in that situation is powered.
 
Jeanne Alter's A+ NP is said to have the power of a first-rate dragon's breath:
The flag can release flames with performance resembling a first-rate Dragon’s Breath.

Saber Alter's NP is a recreation of Vortigern's flames:
Such condition is similar to the breath of the demonic dragon Vortigern, which manifested to protect the Isle of Britain.

NP Activation: Vortigern, Hammer of the Vile King, reverse the rising sun. Swallow the light, Excalibur Morgan!

Medusa's Pegasus is said to have power comparable to dragons due to how old it is, and Medusa's Bellephrone is said to be capable of boosting it further and multiplying its defense several times:
As that Pegasus has existed from the time of the gods, it has grown to the level of the fantastic beasts.
That Pegasus is nearing the level of the dragon race, considered to be the strongest of the fantastic races.
…No, its defense is already at the level of the dragon race.

A Pegasus under the control of Bellerophon would exceed its limits and receive a rank-up in all of its attributes. Furthermore, due to the protection of an immense amount of mana from Bellerophon, the defensive power of the Pegasus would multiply several times.

Also, Mordred's very magical energy would be that of a dragon. And the Artoria versions who receive an upgrade to the Mana Burst skill in FGO get a skill that directly references dragons (Dragon Reactor Core, Sign of Red Dragon, Breath of the Red Dragon).
Also, as her “Pendragon” name shows, Artoria is the holder of the Element of the Red Dragon, charged with the task of protecting the kingdom. She carries the very magical power of the Dragon. This humongous magical power is also the source of Artoria’s Magic Resistance. Due to the characteristics of Dragon, Artoria has much trouble with existences such as Siegfried, who is associated with tales of “Dragon extermination”. If she is targeted by “Dragon-slaying Sorceries”, it is possible that Magic Resistance will not function to its fullest extent.
In the story, Artoria retained her Magic Resistance of A while having Emiya Shirou and Rin as Masters, regardless the two’s differences in power and characteristics. On the other hand, while having Matou Sakura as her Master, her Magic Resistance decreased to B as a result of Blackening.
So if we are to say that Siegfried got a bonus against Fanfir's breath, then he should get a bonus against Mordred Mana Burst as well.

So not much assumptions are needed to scale top-tier AP NP to Fafnir.

Also, Heaven's Feel Rho Aias is weaker than normal as it only has four petals instead of seven, and Medusa pretty much invested her remaining energy into her NP since she couldn't fight at full power for much longer.

TheUnshakableOne said:
what is being used for the depth?
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It is not a destruction calc, but a surface explosion calc. So we just need to know the radius of the explosion created.
 
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Alright seems fair.
I do have a question regarding CBA though. Does it get a boost from attacking Arthur servants, or is that purely gameplay in FGO? If so would Excalibur scale above that boosted version or just above CBA and Balmung?
 
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