Nasuverse: Noble Phantasm Revisions Continued

[Regidian]

In tier 7, we have these one, Mordred NP destroying a mountain 7-B (done casually)

Fate Series: Mordred obliterates a mountain

vsbattles.fandom.com

Excalibur Shockwave 7-A

Fate Stay Night UBW: Excalibur Explosion

vsbattles.fandom.com

Gray rhongo dispersing clound High 7-A

Fate Series: Gray's Rhongomyniad

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Regidian]

So to generalize we for now because of the downgrade of servant base stat have scale pratically all NP to the lowest one, who was done casually.

How this was even accepted?

 

[RetroWeeeb]

Welp, another tier 6 np calc awaiting evaluation.

Looks promising. Haven't played Fate/Extella so someone familiar with the lore should check it out.

I have a copy of Fate/Extella Link. Looking at the glossary section, the only information given about a Sector is that it is "one of several small parcels of land that make up a territory. To conquer a Sector, defeat all enemy Aggressors within it." From what I remember of the game, Sectors were the various platforms that you travelled through to beat the enemies and finish the level. They seemed to vary in size, but in generally most of them would probably yield around Tier 7 results.

It's really late where I am so I'll have a look through the game tomorrow to see if I can find the specific scene with Karna in it just in case there is anymore context to the feat that might help.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

There are 40 acres in a parcel, which has four sides that measure 1,320 feet each. A square mile is 640 acres, with each side measuring 5,280 feet in length.

 

[Regidian]

Bump

 

[RetroWeeeb]

Just did a quick look through of Fate/EXTELLA Link and I found the scene involving Karna splitting the Sector (Day 1 Battle for the Imperial Capital for those who are curious). He splits the Sector by using an eye laser (likely his Brahmastra NP), although it does seem like Nero and the others took the attack without it causing any serious damage to them.

As for splitting the Sector itself, this is a map of the level. The red circle in the top left corner with the green arrow is where Nero is standing and where Karna unleashed his initial attack. The blue square is where the Master is, who was standing next to Nero before Karna split the Sector. We could use the statement of a Sector being a parcel to find the distance between the two sectors and then figure out the energy needed to have split them. Idk, I'm just spit balling.

 

[Regidian]

I hope staff could begin to tell what they think as we don't have that more thing to show

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump so this don't die.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I have no idea how to proceed, there are a bunch of feats in Fate Grand Order that I just don’t know the context behind them, so scaling for them is iffy to me

All I know is that NP should definitely be Tier 6

 

[Ionliosite]

I hope staff could begin to tell what they think

Mitch is staff, and he already has commented here multiple times. Or are you implying he isn't staff?

 

[Regidian]

Mitch is staff, and he already has commented here multiple times. Or are you implying he isn't staff?

No but doesn't thread like that need multiple one?

 

[Regidian]

I have no idea how to proceed, there are a bunch of feats in Fate Grand Order that I just don’t know the context behind them, so scaling for them is iffy to me

All I know is that NP should definitely be Tier 6

At least since Mitch is okay with tier 6 NP could we apply the change for them and continue to talk about the possible back scaling of servant stat after?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

At least since Mitch is okay with tier 6 NP could we apply the change for them and continue to talk about the possible back scaling of servant stat after?

I don't know what rating to scale them too tho

Like a bunch of the Tier 6 Calcs are from Fate Grand Order, which I have no knowledge on

 

[Regidian]

Not entirely sure what your first point is talking about, but the thing is that there isn't really like, people getting 1 shot by these NPs all the time. The cases that have shown to be absurdly powerful are mostly the smurf ones, like Mahapralya, Surtr's stuff, Ea, etc

Scale the NPs to the Laputa calc probably, it seems like a safe bet and is the best one imo. So high 6-C for that

Servants being relative to Noble Phantasms (weaker, but not by the absurd amount that not making them scale at all would imply) would mean you backscale from that value, which probably brings them into either low high 6-C or the upper bounds of 6-C for physicals

Paul talk about scaling to the Laputa feat which many of us is good with

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

If the Fafnir Low 6-B calc gets published and accepted, it would make a better benchmark, since it directly scales to many Servants. Including Siegfried, Saber Alter, and Jeanne Alter.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The calcs were already posted to aprove them and officialy use? If no then shouldn't be posted? Would help to compare.

 

[Regidian]

Bump

 

[RetroWeeeb]

Since some people were asking, Low 6-B Fafnir calc.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Since some people were asking, Low 6-B Fafnir calc.

Hope it's acepted because from that there would be various servants that can be scaled to that.

 

[Regidian]

Bump

 

[LehenDuo]

Not entirely sure what your first point is talking about, but the thing is that there isn't really like, people getting 1 shot by these NPs all the time. The cases that have shown to be absurdly powerful are mostly the smurf ones, like Mahapralya, Surtr's stuff, Ea, etc

Scale the NPs to the Laputa calc probably, it seems like a safe bet and is the best one imo. So high 6-C for that

Servants being relative to Noble Phantasms (weaker, but not by the absurd amount that not making them scale at all would imply) would mean you backscale from that value, which probably brings them into either low high 6-C or the upper bounds of 6-C for physicals

Yeah, that time Saber blew Prelati Book's big summon with Excalibur
She could TOTALLY have done that with a normal attack, both attacks are definitely in the same magnitude...
Come on people, stop pretending this is actually something well defined and not a shit show of contradictions depending on what you consider as ''more cannon''. It seeems everyone forgets that Iskandar's Gordius Wheel only reaches low 400kmph (continue ad nauseaum examples were contradictions are thrown in ou faces but no one cares)

 

[Regidian]

Yeah, that time Saber blew Prelati Book's big summon with Excalibur
She could TOTALLY have done that with a normal attack, both attacks are definitely in the same magnitude...
Come on people, stop pretending this is actually something well defined and not a shit show of contradictions depending on what you consider as ''more cannon''. It seeems everyone forgets that Iskandar's Gordius Wheel only reaches low 400kmph (continue ad nauseaum examples were contradictions are thrown in ou faces but no one cares)

We talk about backscale, why you talk about same magnitude, pretty sure that something like 7/10x backscale is enormous in term of ap, still more plausible than the 1 million difference in AP which is contradicted by pretty much everything in fgo

Nobody tell that nasuverse doesn't have many contradiction but using some feat from a moment that have 10 years to contradict a quite big amount of new feat is not the best too.

But just to know doesn't we have a calc of the atomisation of arturia in this feat vs him?

 

[LehenDuo]

We talk about backscale, why you talk about same magnitude, pretty sure that something like 7/10x backscale is enormous in term of ap, still more plausible than the 1 million difference in AP which is contradicted by pretty much everything in fgo

Nobody tell that nasuverse doesn't have many contradiction but using some feat from a moment that have 10 years to contradict a quite big amount of new feat is not the best too.

That´s why I said the different works are a shit show of contradictions. Fate/stay Night, the light novel, and even Fate/Zero, are nowhere ******* near that scale of power. Any way you do it will end up in a frankestein. The fact people, in said FGO (that is already too far gone from the power scale of the originals), do everything to wank the feats doesn't help.

But just to know doesn't we have a calc of the atomisation of arturia in this feat vs him?

Don´t know, but I´m pretty sure no. You need to have the physical properties of the material being affected, and given it was an Eldritch Horror, I doubt it even should be considered physical.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Yeah, that time Saber blew Prelati Book's big summon with Excalibur
She could TOTALLY have done that with a normal attack, both attacks are definitely in the same magnitude...
Come on people, stop pretending this is actually something well defined and not a shit show of contradictions depending on what you consider as ''more cannon''. It seeems everyone forgets that Iskandar's Gordius Wheel only reaches low 400kmph (continue ad nauseaum examples were contradictions are thrown in ou faces but no one cares)

Strawman (we are talking about backscale) + AoE fallacy (Attack Potency is not neccessarily the same as Destructive Capacity).

Speed is irrelevant to the thread. You are free to start an other CRT where you argue that 400 kmph is consistent combat speed for Servants.

 

[LehenDuo]

Strawman (we are talking about backscale) + AoE fallacy (Attack Potency is not neccessarily the same as Destructive Capacity)

Arbitrary backscaling, aka, no difference - you could upscale it from the no NP servant stats, also, and would be just as arbitry.
The problem was output, not AoE, what the ****... please rewatch it before posting fallacy names that don't even apply. Everyone knows the wiki has a page with them listed, no need to copy and paste them randomly.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Arbitrary backscaling, aka, no difference - you could upscale it from the no NP servant stats, also, and would be just as arbitry.
The problem was output, not AoE, what the ****... please rewatch it before posting fallacy names that don't even apply. Everyone knows the wiki has a page with them listed, no need to copy and paste them randomly.

Can you explain how the backscaling is arbitrary (unless you consider all backscaling to be arbitrary by default)? If the backscaling causes them to be in different tiers to the NP, how would this indicate that there is 'no difference'? Don't think we started discussion on how the backscaling will be done to begin with.

To defeat the Giant Horror large AoE is required, which is missing from Saber's normal attacks. Why should we expect that Saber's normal attack (even if it was comparable in output to Excalibur) would be able to blow away the Giant Horror?

 

[LehenDuo]

Can you explain how the backscaling is arbitrary (unless you consider all backscaling to be arbitrary by default)? If the backscaling causes them to be in different tiers to the NP, how would this indicate that there is 'no difference'? Don't think we started discussion on how the backscaling will be done to begin with.

The difference in power has never been even alluded to. (+ multiple works with obviously differences in scale, be it because of bad writing or ''evolution'') It´s not like in Bleach, where a number was at least mentioned.
To try to force backscale while saying ''10x or 20x is enough'' just makes the distortion more grotesque. Who's to say the difference isn't the same within a human kick and a tank shell?

To defeat the Giant Horror large AoE is required, which is missing from Saber's normal attacks. Why should we expect that Saber's normal attack (even if it was comparable in output to Excalibur) would be able to blow away the Giant Horror?

Q: If the original Kansho and Bakuya take the stage in the Holy Grail War, as the twin swords reaching the realm of Gods due to the sacrifice of human lives, will they possess powers as Noble Phantasms? Or, since they did not have wielders in the legend, thus cannot become Noble Phantasms?

A: Absolutely without a doubt that they will be true Noble Phantasms. They will be extremely strong anti-monster Noble Phantasms. Rider's ultimate form--Gorgon Lv100, or the extra-dimensional evil god summoned by Gilles, will all be cut down in a single strike.

Unless Kanshou and Bakuya became a beam saber, and single strike means ray of death, I think Nasu doesn´t agree with you.
Her attacks lacked, before anything, the capacity to trully hurt the Cthulhu-like thing. If she had ''normal slash with AoE'' it would still be useless.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

Fate/Zero Volume 3 Light Novel, Page 98, during the fight with Gilles' squid monster

"Even with the exceptionally powerful Noble Phantasms possessed by Rider and Archer, it will not be enough to fell this monster. No matter how large a force they use to trample it, it is meaningless if all its injuries can be regenerated from instantly. To defeat this horror, one must simply deliver a strike that covers it entirely, obliterating it down to the last scrap of flesh - what is needed is not an Anti-Army, but an Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm.
Excalibur could achieve this, but Saber could not use it now. The fatal secret technique which releases in a single blow an enormous surge of energy rivalling her entire prana supply; no matter the circumstance, for her to use it, she must swing the sword with both hands."

The reason why only Saber could defeat Gilles' monster was because non of the other Servants there possessed a Noble Phantasms that covered a large enough area to engulf the entirety of the monster. The second that someone like Rider made a dent in the monster, the injury would just instantly heal itself. Also, Excalibur is stated to release power that rivals Saber's entire supply of magical energy, so clearly the difference between Servants and their NPs aren't millions of times.

Unless Kanshou and Bakuya became a beam saber, and single strike means ray of death, I think Nasu doesn´t agree with you

I mean, we've never seen the "original Kansho and Bakuya" (as the question phrases it) so who knows how they actually work. Considering how many Saber-class Servants have beam based swords, it wouldn't surprise me that the "true" form of Kansho and Bakuya can do something similar. Nasu also specifies that their true NP form would be "extremely strong anti-monster Noble Phantasms". The Anti-Monster part may give them a conceptual advantage against Gilles' monster allowing them to negate his regeneration, or something similar.

The difference in power has never been even alluded to

Hasn't it been stated that A/A+ rank physical attacks = C rank Noble Phantasms. Can't we work out a difference based on that?

 

[Regidian]

The difference in power has never been even alluded to. (+ multiple works with obviously differences in scale, be it because of bad writing or ''evolution'') It´s not like in Bleach, where a number was at least mentioned.
To try to force backscale while saying ''10x or 20x is enough'' just makes the distortion more grotesque. Who's to say the difference isn't the same within a human kick and a tank shell?


Q: If the original Kansho and Bakuya take the stage in the Holy Grail War, as the twin swords reaching the realm of Gods due to the sacrifice of human lives, will they possess powers as Noble Phantasms? Or, since they did not have wielders in the legend, thus cannot become Noble Phantasms?

A: Absolutely without a doubt that they will be true Noble Phantasms. They will be extremely strong anti-monster Noble Phantasms. Rider's ultimate form--Gorgon Lv100, or the extra-dimensional evil god summoned by Gilles, will all be cut down in a single strike.

Unless Kanshou and Bakuya became a beam saber, and single strike means ray of death, I think Nasu doesn´t agree with you.
Her attacks lacked, before anything, the capacity to trully hurt the Cthulhu-like thing. If she had ''normal slash with AoE'' it would still be useless.

So because we can't backscale in a exact number you want to ignore litteraly all the feat?

 

[LehenDuo]

what is needed is not an Anti-Army, but an Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm.

That's... what I said. Anti-Fortress differs from Anti-Army in power, not in AoE........
Anti-Army are already AoE.

So because we can't backscale in a exact number you want to ignore litteraly all the feat?

You may do whatever you want, my friend. But it´s another thing to say it makes any sense.

Hasn't it been stated that A/A+ rank physical attacks = C rank Noble Phantasms. Can't we work out a difference based on that?

If you can make sense of it, go ahead. But the Parameters values are the greatest troll Nasu has ever doneon us at least in my opinion.

 

[Regidian]

That's... what I said. Anti-Fortress differs from Anti-Army in power, not in AoE........
Anti-Army are already AoE.


You may do whatever you want, my friend. But it´s another thing to say it makes any sense.

It make sense even more when we know that nasu have made power creep, pretty much everything from the base fate have changed, even the thing of arturia being the only being able to walk on water changed in fgo.

All i see his people using a work from 10 years ago to denied all the recent feat, i mean even in fate heaven feel we have salter surviving rider NP, or her beating berserker with mana burst, i mean except if you want tell that monster of giles> berserker dura

 

[RetroWeeeb]

That's... what I said. Anti-Fortress differs from Anti-Army in power, not in AoE........
Anti-Army are already AoE.

Yes, Anti-Army are AoE. Anti-Fortress are an even bigger AoE. Did you ignore the part where the novel claims "To defeat this horror, one must simply deliver a strike that covers it entirely". It doesn't say that they need a stronger attack. It says that they need one that covers a larger area.

But the Parameters values are the greatest troll Nasu has ever doneon us at least in my opinion

That is fair. I merely brought it up as a suggestion. Parameter values are wildly inconsistent in the series.

 

[Regidian]

But anyways if people think that fate stay/night and fate zero have a to much big gap with fgo we just have to differencie them.

But anyway salter will still backscale from belcephon and have the problem of mana burst>berserker dura but need excaibur to kill monster of Gilles

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The difference in power has never been even alluded to. (+ multiple works with obviously differences in scale, be it because of bad writing or ''evolution'') It´s not like in Bleach, where a number was at least mentioned.
To try to force backscale while saying ''10x or 20x is enough'' just makes the distortion more grotesque. Who's to say the difference isn't the same within a human kick and a tank shell?

Actually there have been people who argued that the difference in power has been alluded to in an explicit manner, and even if it wasn't alluded to explicitly there is no issue in concluding it based on consistency. The existance of powercreep and slight retcons doesn't nullify the ability to scale.
Who said that the backscaling will be 'forced' and on the basis of '10x or 20x is enough'? Maybe wait until we outline and discuss the options for backscaling and the logic behind it before you declare that everything is arbitrary?
A human cannot survive a tank shell, but there are many examples of Servants surviving Noble Phantasms. Furthermore, with no backscaling it needs to be argued that Servants are a billion times weaker than the AP Noble Phantasms, which is significantly larger than the difference between a human kick and a tank shell (3 million times).

Retro answered the point speculating how the original Kansho and Bakuya worked. Also, Anti-Army Noble Phantasms tend to be inferior in AoE to Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasms, which would make them fail the requirements.

Anti-Army Noble Phantasms

typemoon.fandom.com

 

[LehenDuo]

Yes, Anti-Army are AoE. Anti-Fortress are an even bigger AoE. Did you ignore the part where the novel claims "To defeat this horror, one must simply deliver a strike that covers it entirely". It doesn't say that they need a stronger attack. It says that they need one that covers a larger area.

You forget the line that is just before that - ''it is meaningless if all its injuries can be regenerated from instantly''. Excalibur was the only (not EA) thing that could burst through the horror through the regeneration. The others could damage it, and Iskandar has an entire army attacking, a MUCH larger AoE if you add up compared to Excaliblast, that is a line of light. (Do you have the original in JP of that paragraph?)
About Anti-Army and Anti-Fortress, no, that's wrong. Fate/EXTRA Material, if I remember correctly, Noble Phantasm entry.

宝具【スキル】

サーヴァントが持つ切り札。
英霊である彼らが生前に愛用した武具、あるいは逸話を奇蹟として再現したもの。
すべてのサーヴァントは、その出自となる伝承を武器として扱える。
一対一で効果を発揮する対人宝具、
大勢に対して効果を発揮する対軍宝具、
建物や要塞等、地形すら破壊する対城宝具、とぃった種類に分けられる。
稀にEX……特例として対界宝具があるが、そのレべルの宝具を持つ英霊は稀。

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

You forget the line that is just before that - ''it is meaningless if all its injuries can be regenerated from instantly''. Excalibur was the only (not EA) thing that could burst through the horror through the regeneration. The others could damage it, and Iskandar has an entire army attacking, a MUCH larger AoE if you add up compared to Excaliblast, that is a line of light.
About Anti-Army and Anti-Fortress, no, that's wrong. Fate/EXTRA Material, if I remember correctly, Noble Phantasm entry.

宝具【スキル】

How does the line change the fact that "To defeat this horror, one must simply deliver a strike that covers it entirely"?
I am confused about your point, are you downplaying the AoE of Excalibur? An army trying to surround the Giant Horror and taking pot shots at it with spears would not engulf it entirely.
Anti-Army is effective at attacking a large number of people, and Anti-Fortress is effective at attacking terrain such as buildings and fortresses. How does this indicate equality in AoE, or that Retro was wrong?

 

[RetroWeeeb]

^
I was about to comment the exact same thing, but I guess you ninja'd me.

"it is meaningless if all its injuries can be regenerated from instantly" - what this is saying is that unless you can destroy the entire monster in one blow, it will just regenerate from any injuries you make. If it requires more than one attack to cover the entire thing, then the monster will just regenerate before you make the next attack.

Excalibur's beam can cover the entire monster to the point that "every single atom that made up the body of the demonic giant, which existed as terror materialized, were exposed to the scorching impact within the sea water that evaporated in the blink of an eye" (Fate/Zero Volume 3, page 113). Unless you want to argue that the army of Ionioi Hetairoi can attack "every single atom" of Gilles' monster at once, then no, Iskandar does not have a larger AoE then Saber.

 

[LehenDuo]

How does the line change the fact that "To defeat this horror, one must simply deliver a strike that covers it entirely"?
I am confused about your point, are you downplaying the AoE of Excalibur? An army trying to surround the Giant Horror and taking pot shots at it with spears would not engulf it entirely.
Anti-Army is effective at attacking a large number of people, and Anti-Fortress is effective at attacking terrain such as buildings and fortresses. How does this indicate equality in AoE, or that Retro was wrong?

Given it's a Fate translation, the first question is ''Who translated that? Do you have the original?'' People old enough in the community have PTSD about translations randomly thrown, and for good reasons. Who's to say it isn't Coke's translation again back to haunt me.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Information about the translation (which is checked by editors) can be found here:

https://******************/project/index.php?title=Fate/Zero

Which is done by reliable people as far as I can tell. Would be superfluous to hunt down the passage in the Japanese text, based on a hunch that the translation is randomly thrown in.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Yeah, that time Saber blew Prelati Book's big summon with Excalibur
She could TOTALLY have done that with a normal attack, both attacks are definitely in the same magnitude...
Come on people, stop pretending this is actually something well defined and not a shit show of contradictions depending on what you consider as ''more cannon''. It seeems everyone forgets that Iskandar's Gordius Wheel only reaches low 400kmph (continue ad nauseaum examples were contradictions are thrown in ou faces but no one cares)

It's pretty explicitly shown that servants can in fact hurt it, Gil shoots random swords into it and injured it, but those wounds were healed, same with literally everything they threw at it. Then as people posted above, it's shown that Excalibur is used for the aoe since it could hit the entire thing at once.

It being a power thing wouldn't even make sense "it's meaningless if all of its injuries can be regenerated instantly" literally means "its being hurt by us, but it's shrugging it off by healing instantly." So they're able to hurt it, just not enough all at once, and so there's always something able to regenerate and thus they can't kill it