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No one has ever said it isn't literal. The argument brought last thread is that 5-C Servants is beyond obviously an insane outlier.
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Nasuverse: Noble Phantasm Revisions Continued
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
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the only reason i brought it up again was to show another way demon god pillars should be > Fafnir.
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Also yeah, Demon God Pillars are a bit weird. I remember seeing that come up before as well, but it was taken if it was true then it would be all 72 of them have to team up to do it iirc? But was treated as an outlier.
There's also the fact that they are stated to take on teams of top tier servants ... and then also get stomped by solo servants.
There's also the fact that they are stated to take on teams of top tier servants ... and then also get stomped by solo servants.
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Also, why are Demon God Pillars considered above Fafnir?
They weren't even in Orleans.
They weren't even in Orleans.
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Yeah, I don't agree with 6-A to 5-C Servants at all
I still don't even think we should scale Base Servant stats to NP's
I still don't even think we should scale Base Servant stats to NP's
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There is a manga adaption of the games singularities. They add extra details and make the boring singularities more bearable.
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I think paul explained why this is wrong better than I could.
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It's crimson but don't remember
I have this scene too with altera np being able to destroy the world
And here a NP able to paralize the world
Brahmashirastra: O’ scorching light, manifest the ocean of imprisoned death
Rank: EX
Type: Anti-Land Noble Phantasm
Range: 1~30
Maximum number of targets: Everything within range
Brahmashirastra.
The ultimate weapon, received from his father Drona.
Although he was told not to use this weapon no matter what kind of disaster he encountered, Ashwatthama finally activated it, sparked by Duryodhana’s death.
This weapon that possesses the destructive power to paralyze the world,
despite having been antagonized by Arjuna shooting with his bow at full power, left ravages that were said to turn the whole surroundings into a barren land for twelve years.
Although it’s registered as a Noble Phantasm,
Ashwatthama will not use this Noble Phantasm.
It will not be used in 『FateGO』 either.
I have this scene too with altera np being able to destroy the world
And here a NP able to paralize the world
Brahmashirastra: O’ scorching light, manifest the ocean of imprisoned death
Rank: EX
Type: Anti-Land Noble Phantasm
Range: 1~30
Maximum number of targets: Everything within range
Brahmashirastra.
The ultimate weapon, received from his father Drona.
Although he was told not to use this weapon no matter what kind of disaster he encountered, Ashwatthama finally activated it, sparked by Duryodhana’s death.
This weapon that possesses the destructive power to paralyze the world,
despite having been antagonized by Arjuna shooting with his bow at full power, left ravages that were said to turn the whole surroundings into a barren land for twelve years.
Although it’s registered as a Noble Phantasm,
Ashwatthama will not use this Noble Phantasm.
It will not be used in 『FateGO』 either.
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Pretty much nothing of what you've said explains the obvious issues on the idea you're proposing, such as the countless contradictions to your statement that a Servant's regular attack is on the same level as their NPs (such as Atoria, Arash, every single "sword beam" user, etc.), so basically everyone on this thread has explained things better than you could.
Hell, Paul himself isn't even arguing Servants has physical attacks on the same level of their of their NPs, he directly says they're weaker even if he argues not to the extent we currently have, which means that no, Paul hasn't explained your argument for you, so either actually bring up an argument for it or let everyone else debate.
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It's in the manga
It was in discord not here and actually i don't think they scale too
They should actually not fully but they should, salter survive the weakened NP of rider, salter tanking her own NP in fgo fuyuki, other tanking NP with their armor etc i mean don't recall having servant getting insta killed in fgo by NP and we have got a ton of them
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"To say this another way, a Noble Phantasm is the trump card of a heroic spirit, but I'd like you to show me how often one is used and it instantly delete a servant."
"WoW sO yOu ThInK aRtOrIa PuNcHeS aS hArD aS eXcAlIbUr?"
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I mean yeah most servant don't fully scale to what their NP do as many can get killed by it (all the time was by the most powerful one and not the weaker one tho), but actually by ex the mana burst of arturia is not that weak compared to her NP, and like alredy we still have many servant that somewhat scale to their np because of the particularity of their NP or how they use their NP.
For arash does that even count as he litteraly kill himself because of the power of his NP? If we use this logic all servant that don't kill themselves by using their NP will scale lol
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I mean yeah Artoria can punch as hard as her Noble Phantasm. Let's all not forget when she punched the Holy Grail in nonexistence in the 4th War. Imagine the aberration of Kiritsugu needing to order her to use the Noble Phantasm on it when her punch prowess can release that much energy.
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She can't but by her mana burst is not that weaker and she can use as many time she want,
I mean if you guy want to go with that Beowulf can punch as hard as his NP, santa karna can punch as Hard as his NP, Saint martha can push as hard as her NP, Ruler artutia litteraly use her knee to do the NP etc
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Artoria used Excalibur to instantly delete Gilles in Fate/Zero.
She uses it again to delete Gil at the end of the Fate Route.
Shirou uses Nine Lives to delete Berserker
The only reason Medea survived Caladbolg is because EMIYA missed on purpose iirc.
Geronimo's NP deleted Billy the Kid after being redirected in America Singularity (albeit Billy was already injured.)
Conversely there are also more than a few examples of servants living an NP
Beowulf survived Brahamastra from Rama
Arjuna redirects Geronimo's NP
Rama survived one of Cu Alter's NPs (I forget which one)
Karna vs Sieg
Achilles punch against Chiron being stated to be on par with a NP
Holmes's Baritsu being on par with NP
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If you're going to by the "they don't instantly die to a NP so they scale" notion, Karna doesn't instantly die every time VS is released, so now let's put every single Servant at 2-A.
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Don't understand the logic tho since no servant scale to VS released but in same you use litteraly the same logic by using Arash dying because of his NP when he praticaly the only doing that
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I mean why we not just do diverse scaling?
Not scalling all of them by one feat since we pretty much see that we have different type of servant, some of these have comparable feat? Then scale them beetween them only that, we alredy do that for the 2-A servant and 6-A NP.
We will never be a able to to scale somewhat correctly the servant since many of them have too much different feat. Even more when we know that Nasu do powercreep for some servant (Wait the time tsukihime remake with all the previous scaling beetween fate and tsukihime to rechange one more time lol)
Not scalling all of them by one feat since we pretty much see that we have different type of servant, some of these have comparable feat? Then scale them beetween them only that, we alredy do that for the 2-A servant and 6-A NP.
We will never be a able to to scale somewhat correctly the servant since many of them have too much different feat. Even more when we know that Nasu do powercreep for some servant (Wait the time tsukihime remake with all the previous scaling beetween fate and tsukihime to rechange one more time lol)
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I mean ... Gawain tanks VS in Foxtail after being buffed by his master. I think it was nerfed though for some reason, can't remember.
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Artoria had a specific advantage against Gilles because of Excalibur being an anti-fortress attack, and Gilles himself is 9-B so it doesn't exactly take a lot to destroy him.
Artoria killed Gil via a direct melee attack with a released Excalibur, no shit that's gonna kill him, even if they were a 1-1 comparison. And Saber's strength is A compared to Gilgamesh's endurance of C, so she's stronger than him anyway.
Nine lives was effective on berserker due to its speed, not its AP, and the fact that Berserker had lost most of his fighting skill due to his blackening.
Medea's durability is 9-B, and Caladbolg has hax, not just AP. Hell, herc was able to directly tank it (or deflect it depending on the adaptation)
As you said, Billy was already weakened.
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Ironically we scale Karna to Low 7-B at all because he survived the release of VS in Apocrypha
Fate Series: Karna melts the ground
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Yeah, I mean I agree with this. Why don't we just scale on a case by case basis like we do for literally ALL verses? Let's say Servant A scales to his (or someone else's) NP, then Servant A simply scales. If Servant B happens to not scale to his NP, then that's on him, and it shouldn't have anything to do with Servant A's feats. Servant B will simply need to find another way to scale.
Each servant should scale based on their feats I think, and just build a scaling chain around certain servants based on their classes or ranks or whatever.
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Bruh what.
Okay, so let's clarify something, VS's 2-A portion is the beam fired out after the release, the stuff leading up to that isn't even the spear, that's Karna's mana
The only people who have even come close to tanking VS are also 2-As (none have actually tanked it either afaik), used 2-A attacks to deflect it, or had blatant plot armor (Sieg, although he had the shield or whatever)
Because even trying to do it like this, if you look hard enough, 99% of servants end up scaling to eachother either way. The amount of servants who wouldn't scale relative to fhe same feat is actually surprisingly low, basically just the physicals of casters and some assassins, and even that's not the case all the time (i.e, even the servants with D str sometimes scale to the A str ones because rank is a lie).
We already, as of our current scaling, do what I'm saying, and have them relative, as they should be, unless there is a special case that puts them higher or lower
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I mean we still have fairly amount if difference between people who directly show to tank somewhat NP(even weakened) and other that talk about gettting insta-kill by them
But even whitout that what we do what for NP by ex we have to high 7-A to tier 6-B for most of them (with the better now as 6-A for normal servant), how we scale that and how for the servant that can partially tank some?
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Not entirely sure what your first point is talking about, but the thing is that there isn't really like, people getting 1 shot by these NPs all the time. The cases that have shown to be absurdly powerful are mostly the smurf ones, like Mahapralya, Surtr's stuff, Ea, etc
Scale the NPs to the Laputa calc probably, it seems like a safe bet and is the best one imo. So high 6-C for that
Servants being relative to Noble Phantasms (weaker, but not by the absurd amount that not making them scale at all would imply) would mean you backscale from that value, which probably brings them into either low high 6-C or the upper bounds of 6-C for physicals
Scale the NPs to the Laputa calc probably, it seems like a safe bet and is the best one imo. So high 6-C for that
Servants being relative to Noble Phantasms (weaker, but not by the absurd amount that not making them scale at all would imply) would mean you backscale from that value, which probably brings them into either low high 6-C or the upper bounds of 6-C for physicals
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Well this could be a good thing, and after that we will still have second part of camelot movie, tsukihime, and melty to see how this go (for rhongo/gawain and tsukihime powercreep)
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So far it is looking like 6-B. Don't think 5-C is a serious suggestion.
Yawn. Are you going to repeat the same statement and ignore the response every time? Let's move on with the conversation already.
Saber's punch doesn't need to scale 100% 1/1 to a full-power Excaliblast. She should only somewhat scales to it, meaning that Saber's punch is several times weaker than a proper excalibast, which has been demonstrated through much evidence.
Now your turn:
EDIT: Might have misunderstood what is said. My impression that ZephyrosOmega is arguing for the existance of scaling between Servants and NPs vs. non-scaling, especially since he is in agreement with Paul. So give him the benefit of the doubt, since full-power Excalibur = punch is looking like a strawman.
Saber's punch doesn't need to scale 100% 1/1 to a full-power Excaliblast. She should only somewhat scales to it, meaning that Saber's punch is several times weaker than a proper excalibast, which has been demonstrated through much evidence.
Now your turn:
EDIT: Might have misunderstood what is said. My impression that ZephyrosOmega is arguing for the existance of scaling between Servants and NPs vs. non-scaling, especially since he is in agreement with Paul. So give him the benefit of the doubt, since full-power Excalibur = punch is looking like a strawman.
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So what’s the summary here? Basically servants should slightly downscale from NPs because they’re not overly weaker?
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Give or take, yeah.
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This it's like the better option, we have show that over servant are not be this weaker compared to some NP (some survived them, some are able to do physically them etc) and same time go with using Laputa as the feat for overall scaling foe NP as he is a good between the high 7-A and the 6-B NP feat (and most high tier correctly scale to this)
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Also, due to the existence of multiple Tier 6 feats, there is a proposal for an upgrade to Servants to either the 6-Bs or the 6-Cs.
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I'll watch for now
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Bump
Does we have other thing to tell? I think we have collect enough np tier 6 feat, so i suppose the only possible problem is Ion and Demon that don't want servant to fully scale but it's not a thing we want to, we just want them to backscale to a relative amount since their still show Many time to being able to survive NP by themself with normal or weakened NP or even with some armor and protection that weaker the damage.
(And some that directly tank like it's nothing due to their particularity like Vritra lol)
Does we have other thing to tell? I think we have collect enough np tier 6 feat, so i suppose the only possible problem is Ion and Demon that don't want servant to fully scale but it's not a thing we want to, we just want them to backscale to a relative amount since their still show Many time to being able to survive NP by themself with normal or weakened NP or even with some armor and protection that weaker the damage.
(And some that directly tank like it's nothing due to their particularity like Vritra lol)
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List for the feats:
So discuss.
Accepted Calcs:
| Ishtar nukes Uruk and digs to the Underworld | 6-C (10.6 Gigatons) with Pulverization, Low 6-B (1.3 Teratons) with Vaporization |
| Caladbolg destroys Laputa | High 6-C (216.2 Gigatons) |
| Crying Warmonger Spartacus destroys meteor | Low 6-B (3.2 Teratons) |
| Rider Ishtar can summon Gugalanna's hoof to pulverize all of Connacht | 6-B (41.8 Teratons) |
| Ruler Quetzalcoatl's Noble Phantam is compared to Chicxulub Impact Event | At least High 6-B (310 Teratons), possibly High 6-A (13.8 Petatons) |
| James Moriarty pulls an asteroid to Earth within five minutes | 6-B (4.6 Teratons) |
| Arcueid destroys town by raising her hand | 6-C (16.4 Gigatons) |
Unevaluated Calcs:
| Gawain creates a crater and valley | 6-C (18 Gigatons) |
| Nikola Tesla can blow up the entire continent of North America | Ranging from 6-B to High 6-A. If we use a surface explosion with half the length of the continent as radius, we get High 6-A (27.6 Petatons) |
| Prototype Saber vaporizes the Surge of Utnapishtim | High 6-C (208.9 Gigatons) |
Unpublished Calcs:
| Fafnir can blow away the whole region of Orleans with Siegfried matching his power with Balmung | Low 6-B (2.9 Teratons) |
| Sul-sagana can vaporize a myriad of seas | 6-B (22.5 Teratons) with lowball of twelve of the smallest sea |
| Ig-Alima can easily sever a thousand mountains | High 7-A (1.45 Gigatons) if we use the fragmentation of the smallest mountain as an average, High 6-C (799.5 Gigatons) if we use the fragmentation of Mount Fuji as an average |
| Paul Bunyan can shatter the entire Rocky Mountain range with a single pickaxe strike | 6-C+ (8 Gigatons) with Fragmentation, High 6-C+ (689 Gigatons) with Violent Fragmentation |
| Crying Warmonger Spartacus's physical attacks accidently creates an earthquake in the far-away flying Hanging Gardens | Ranging from 6-C to 6-B |
Potential Calcs:
| Ibuki-douji can blow away eight valleys and peaks to create eight large rivers with a single swing of her Noble Phantasm, using only the slightest glitters of the sword's actual power momentarily | We need to figure away a value for the volume of the valleys and peaks, and to figure out what is the area and depth of a "large river" |
| Cu Alter's Curruid Coinchenn strikes with enough power to destroy the world | I believe 'the world' here refers to the area bound by the Singularity, which is North America |
| Arash created a wide split in the earth that is 2500 km long to create the national borders between Persian and Turan | Probably referring to the Amu Darya or the Oxus River, which is 2620 km long. The river has been used as a natural border, and in one version of the legend Arash's arrow landed there. Was said to yield 6-C (25.5 Gigatons), though the calc itself wasn't posted to my knowledge |
| Karna splits a sector in Extella Link with a casual strike | What is the lore behind the sectors? Nero is supposed to have some 'Roman Country Sector'? |
| Altera's Sword of Mars can incinerate the world | Previously she also threatened Saber Alter to incinerate her alongside her dream world, which represents the Roman plains |
So discuss.
REMINDER:
No one made an argument that Servants fully scale to the AP of Noble Phantasms. The discussion is to whether they Backscale and to what extent.
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Karna spliting the sector actually some terms in it that can be used to gauge the distance. Sector is made up of something else which is a fancy way of saying parcels of land
Would Santa Quetz also count with her NP being compared to the "Dinosaur killing" asteriod? my knowledge on her is limited
Would Santa Quetz also count with her NP being compared to the "Dinosaur killing" asteriod? my knowledge on her is limited
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Quick note, for the Sul-Sagana calc, 1.9 Teratons is just for vaporizing ONE sea. The full value for vaporizing 12 is roughly 22.5 Teratons which is 6-B Country level. I'll throw that one into a blog post for evaluation in a minute.
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Looks promising. Haven't played Fate/Extella so someone familiar with the lore should check it out.
It is included; Ruler Quetzalcoatl = Santa Quetz, Chicxulub Impact Event = the asteroid the killed the dinosaurs
Fixed. Thank you for doing the calc.
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1.) I could redownload it and get the encloypedia entries. Iirc it was a casual slash. not even an NP
2.) oops call me blind lmao lol
What calc do we have that are below Tier 6? i think they should be somewhere too to fairly evaluate things and ya know put them on a scale and see how few there is lol
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