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Nasuverse: Noble Phantasm Revisions Continued

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DemonGodMitchAubin

DemonGodMitchAubin

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Ok, the last thread became a mess and we lost complete track of what we were talking about, so I'm going to compile all the Noble Phantasm feats and calcs in the OP so we can keep track of all these ratings

Another topic that we need to discuss is the relationship between Anti-Unit and Anti-Army Noble Phantasms and if they scale to each other if they have the same rank, because I was told they were, but I'm sure of the validity of that

As well, we should discuss Bellerophon scaling to 1/2 of Excalibur as the combined might of Bellerophon+Rho Aias were able to match and then ultimately defeat Excalibur

Please stay on topic this time, I just want to get this settled, no matter how long it takes
 
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Anti X designations representing any sort of major difference in power isn't really a thing. At most, stuff like Anti Army are just larger ranged, its not inherently more powerful than an anti unit NP.

Also don't try to scale things by rank, that's a terrible way to try it, most NPs are relative in power in some way via scaling, ranks are lies, and are almost universally ignored except for interactions with abilities that nullify things below X rank.
 
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As a side, what ever happened to the other stuff I'd seen a while ago like the Fergus thing, the Tesla things or the Extella link Karna stuff

Also which part do you disagree with Ion?

If it's the rank thing, there are an abundance of things that show that ranks are unreliable unless they are specifically needed for an ability, ranging from stat ranks, to NP rank things that don't make sense if you take them as gospel.

If its the designation thing, we are told in verse, that the difference between Anti Fortress and Anti Army for instance, is exclusively the area of effect.

The closest thing to saying that Anti Army is stronger than Anti Unit that I can find are a few unsourced statements on TM wiki that others seem to accept and bounce around, there might have been something in verse but I can't remember it if so.

To show why these are incorrect even if they actually were said in verse or by Nasu, I point you to examples like Agni Gandiva vs Tsago Degi Naleya, which show that the sentiment of Anti Army>Anti Unit is false.
 
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I disagree with everything you said. Ranks, parameters and the like should definitely be used for scaling.
 
I'm not sure how you can disagree when the number of times ranks, parameters and such actually work out scaling wise are absurdly low compared to the amount of times that they are clearly disregarded.

Look at all the E str servants that fight evenly against significantly stronger ones, or the low speed servants fighting evenly against several higher speed servants at once and blocking their hits. Look at all the servants whose NP stat doesn't make sense as it doesn't match their actual NP rank. Look at things like the A+ ranked Balmung blocking the EX rank Vasavi Shakti, look at the B rank Gae Bolg, when even Nasu says its special effect would make it not a B rank, there are so many more things.

The point is, parameters and ranks are absolutely not, in any Fate entry, a reliable benchmark.
 
"Look at things like the A+ ranked Balmung blocking the EX rank Vasavi Shakti"

To be fair, that was only because Sieg used a Command Seal, which has like Fate and Causality Manip to make the matchup more even
 
I'm not sure where them having Fate manip comes from and such, but command seals used that way are just burned for an increase in magic

However, going by the rules provided by Nasu for the ranks, that shouldn't be able to match an EX still. Even worse is that these are Sieg's dead count shapeshifter seals he used, which as far as we know, are exclusively used for transformation, no other purposes.

Another example of this stuff being bad is CBA (C rank) vs Balmung, in which CBA won, which was said to be due to distance, so the one several ranks lower is superior over a longer range than the serval ranks higher NP


Either way since I missed it, for Medusa's thing being 1/2 Excal, I forget, was Medusa still weakened during that part of HF, or did she get enough mana to use that at full power?
 
Also, you can possibly add this to the op

vsbattles.fandom.com

Caladbolg Destroy Laputa (Fate)

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Bambu accepted it, and it wasn't actually rejected by Repp afaik, he just said it wouldn't scale to anyone or something, which I'm not entirely sure is true, given its done with Caladbolg still.
 
I don't see anywhere that it says its the great wall or even apart of it.

also da vanci says it was something built during their lost belt. so we cna't really apply human logic to it.
 
@Ionliosite

Incorrect

That's a popular sentiment that people like to throw around but its also not true. EX is explicitly said to be "in a league of its own, representing powerful to the extent of rendering comparisons meaningless" when the parameter rules are explain

It falls outside of the scale via being above everything else in it based on the explanations.
 
Paul_Frank said:
@Ionliosite

Incorrect

That's a popular sentiment that people like to throw around but its also not true. EX is explicitly said to be "in a league of its own, representing powerful to the extent of rendering comparisons meaningless" when the parameter rules are explain

It falls outside of the scale via being above everything else in it based on the explanations.
Click to expand...
Can be for the inconsistent parameters too, like Edison i think
 
Also, as for the meteor, its just a section of the wall that he dropped off, so you can either assume it's an entire section (one of the little leaf shaped things) dropped off as a payload, which is what both the description, and QSH's general attitude would imply, or you can assume he, for whatever reason, has the wall set to release only pieces of a section, which would make it potentially not 5km wide.
 
It's possible to do a calc of living(berserker) shuten melting sagami province of japan? (The feat is on her profile but don't know if other infos is needed)
 
Paul_Frank said:
@Ionliosite

Incorrect

That's a popular sentiment that people like to throw around but its also not true. EX is explicitly said to be "in a league of its own, representing powerful to the extent of rendering comparisons meaningless" when the parameter rules are explain

It falls outside of the scale via being above everything else in it based on the explanations.
Click to expand...
Incorrect also
The problem is the sentiment that parameters are truly ''A thing'' and that being higher or lower in it NECESSARILY implies you will lose in every situation where said parameters would be the one applicable, Them you throw a non sequitor.

By ''in a league of its own, representing powerful to the extent of rendering comparisons meaningless'' do you the part they say EX is outside de numerical scale? Because your ''adaptation'' of the phrase is... considerable

Ea is EX. Excalibur is A++. By your logic, Ea would stomp Excalibur easily. That's false, we have it in the VN and in a Q&A.

And that isn't the only problem with parameters, in a way. Alteration of the Soul, Aoko upgrading the Servants, goes A+, A++ then EX if I remember correctly, and we have been told ''+" were temporary x2/x3/x4 (even though they have been used differently - Gawain, for example)
 
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Going off the parameter rules, yes, an EX would necessarily beat out an A rank or A+ rank, going off the descriptions we get in those rules, that's the issue. You can't have something that is explicitly said to be outside of the scale due to being so powerful that comparing to it doesn't work, and then just say "but actually, that doesn't mean it'll win against lower ranked stuff". This is the issue with parameters and ranks, they don't work when going off their own rules. You can try and say this is only for EX, to which I'd first remind you of the fact that each rank up to and including A is supposed to be higher by a value of 10 than the last when using the scale, that's a fairly decent amount, then I'll point you to Ushi Gozen fighting off servants with C, B+, and A+ speed, with her speed of D.

Now, if you want to use parameters, you can't just ignore the "rules" for them that the verse itself sets. This means that Ushi Gozen on the scale is a 20 for speed, and kept up with people who, on that same scale, vary between 50 and 100 (using the + rules). This goes far beyond "muh it just doesn't mean you'll always lose" and into the territory where it clearly wasn't taken into account. Even better, let's look at stuff like E rank str servants with physical combat feats to help disprove this even more. For instance, Shiki Ryougi fights Mash, who has C rank str, this same Mash is also able to fight against higher str servants on more than one occasion, so E rank str is able to fight a C rank str that can also tango with A ranks at times.


As for Ea, you mean in the VN, where Gil uses non charged blasts and still beats out Excalibur pretty easily? And where the one time he does charge it all the way its blocked by Avalon?

And you mean the Q&As and materials that say it has "an output matching or exceeding Excalibur" that then immediately say "it would not be stopped even by Excalibur". A great thing is we know that Excalibur is no where near Ea by showings, which you can either use to completely throw away those lines, or say that they were only referring to pure physical damage and not hax or smth.

And yes, Aoko can upgrade stats in Extra, and +s are supposed to be temporary multipliers, although that has also been ignored multiple times, and it's just been treated as permanent boosts at times.
 
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The sword (Clarent) is C Rank, but when boosted with Mana Burst it becomes and A+ Rank NP (Clarent Blood Arthur) and is comparable with Balmung.

Imo, a pure damage Anti-Unit NP has the same firepower of a pure damage Anti-Army NP of equal rank. If the ability is based on special effect, hax, or such then it probably doesn't scale with pure damage of the same rank.
 
Hmm, you're right, my bad on the Clarent example then, that one checks out even using ranks

And that'd be a fine measurement but like, again, from what I've been able to find, nothing actually says Anti Army NPs ars supposed to be stronger, "Anti-Unit Noble Phantasms are used against single targets in one-on-one situations, while Anti-Army Noble Phantasms are used against large groups of enemies. There is also another type, Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasms, which are effective at destroying buildings, fortresses, and even terrain." Even the Fate/Extra material only distinguished the two by a difference in their area of effect, while specifying that Anti Fortress is good against, well, fortresses.
 
Even if we want to say the meteor is a whole leaf, or whatever shape that is, chunk of the Great Wall, which I still find dubious, the calc assumes a spherical shape, which the parts of the Great Wall clearly aren't
 
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Ibuki douji NP description don't know if it's can help it's an A+ Anti-fortress/Anti Army

Divine Sword - Kusanagi-no-Tachi』
Rank: A+
Classification: Anti-Army/Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm
Range: 1~60
Maximum number of targets: 500

Shinken - Kusanagi no Tachi. According to the Susanoo myth from the Kojiki and Nihon-shoki, it is said that Susanoo-no-Mikoto, who was exiled from Takamagahara, descended upon the province of Izumo, saved Kusanadahime who was offered as a sacrifice, and exterminated an enormous monster. That monster was Yamata-no-Orochi, a red-eyed demon with eight heads and eight tails───a gigantic snake that boasted of a length spanning eight valleys and peaks. Japan's greatest dragon of calamity.

Susanoo-no-Mikoto defeated this large serpent (dragon) and obtained a divine sword from its tail. The sword's name is Kusanagi-no-Tachi. Also known as Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi, Ama-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurugi and Tsumugari-no-Tachi. Later, it was offered to the Atsuta Shrine and designated as one of the Three Sacred Treasures of Japan.

Ibuki-douji uses this sacred sword that was inside her father's body as a Noble Phantasm. It is such a fearsome weapon that a swingle swing from it upon the release of its True Name blows away eight valleys and peaks and gives birth to eight large rivers...
However, according to Ibuki-douji, this is nothing but momentarily borrowing the slightest of glitters of the divine sword. Its true value wouldn't stop at something of this level.
 
Brahmashirastra: O’ scorching light, manifest the ocean of imprisoned death
Rank: EX
Type: Anti-Land Noble Phantasm
Range: 1~30
Maximum number of targets: Everything within range

Brahmashirastra.
The ultimate weapon, received from his father Drona.
Although he was told not to use this weapon no matter what kind of disaster he encountered, Ashwatthama finally activated it, sparked by Duryodhana’s death.
This weapon that possesses the destructive power to paralyze the world,
despite having been antagonized by Arjuna shooting with his bow at full power, left ravages that were said to turn the whole surroundings into a barren land for twelve years.
Although it’s registered as a Noble Phantasm,
Ashwatthama will not use this Noble Phantasm.
It will not be used in 『FateGO』 either.

so what tier this np is?
 
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