Fate: Noble Phantasm + Excalibur Revisions

[Wurm]

All right, this has been something that's confused me for a while. A+ ranked NP's are currently ranked at Low 6-B (2.9 Teratons), but on every Fate related verse page, there is a 6-B (41.8 Teratons) calc. These are the Orleans and Gugalanna calcs, both of which are said to scale to A+ Ranked NPs. Is there a reason the Orleans Calc and Gugalanna isn't?

Next, I found this statement about Excalibur.

[```111：業器やも学院を使うのは英葉：式さトガン（マジカルガン）なんであえて111：入やのわれたケイネスがランサーを同二担物対ケイネスの記憶が美化もにこ分からソラウに合認を展ってあげ田*※田：前an曜やり刻がされてましたよね。：かくてがかみ合ってなくておもし※県：「州らのやよースがたいこと出「ト総巻成しろ」です（）受：P スカリバーって風王結界をとっていないのとでは切れ味っ※：編撃線のリの黄金バーージョンのほうが彼「壊力は圧倒的に上。風王結界時の威力を勇〜だとージョンは1000ぐいいある。小+る図ンボゲーつてう思う？。回：ペ側

Higashide: Incidentally, does the sharpness of Excalibur vary when covered with and without Invisible Air?

Nasu: It varies considerably. The destructive power of this golden version is overwhelmingly superior. If the power when in Invisible Air is 80-90, the golden version is about 1000.```]

Source.

What exactly would this mean for Excalibur, and the related parties scaling?

 

[KingNanaya]

That doesn't really do much, because of the other 13 seals on Excalibur, and the counter force nerf. Plus, Artoria can't use Excalibur while invisible air is active.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

I don't know why the Gugalanna calc was never applied originally, but given that Gugalanna is often said to be one of the strongest Divine Beasts, it should be far stronger than Medusa's Bellerophon as the latter is only a Phantasmal Beast, despite both being A+ NPs. In this case, I find scaling the two to the same value based on rank alone to be.... questionable. However, all A++ NPs should def scale above the 41.8 Teraton calc.

I also plan on removing the Orleans calc in the future, because it's heavily wanked (yes I know I'm the one who did the calc, but I now realise I was wrong)

As for the interview, idk if it affects anything. Might be usable to downscale C-rank NPs. IDK. Would be nice to know where the source comes from tho.

 

[Wurm]

I don't know why the Gugalanna calc was never applied originally, but given that Gugalanna is often said to be one of the strongest Divine Beasts, it should be far stronger than Medusa's Bellerophon as the latter is only a Phantasmal Beast, despite both being A+ NPs. In this case, I find scaling the two to the same value based on rank alone to be.... questionable. However, all A++ NPs should def scale above the 41.8 Teraton calc.

I also plan on removing the Orleans calc in the future, because it's heavily wanked (yes I know I'm the one who did the calc, but I now realise I was wrong)

As for the interview, idk if it affects anything. Might be usable to downscale C-rank NPs. IDK. Would be nice to know where the source comes from tho.

Source is a Fate/Zero article from a Magazine, if I remember correctly.

As for Gugalanna, it would still scale to most NPs, due to Arondight Overload, Excalibur, Gate of Babylon and UBW being A++ ranked assuming that's the route you want to go. However, I do have a counter point. Gugalanna strike, the A+ Ranked NP we're talking about (IIRC) is not actually a physical manifestation of that beast, which is only temporarily summoned, and thus not the full actualization of the Bull being used as it is meant to be used.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

As for Gugalanna, it would still scale to most NPs, due to Arondight Overload, Excalibur, Gate of Babylon and UBW being A++ ranked assuming that's the route you want to go.

Arondight Overload is only an A-Rank. GOB and UBW vary from E~A++, so not every weapon should scale to the full value. Gil likely doesn't use the full force of GOB every time he uses it. IDK how Excalibur being A++ rank means most NPs scale to Gugalanna.

My point was, all A++ should scale above the Guanalanna calc based on rank, with A+ NPs possibly scaling. Anything A-rank or below should scale to other calcs. So no, most NPs shouldn't scale.

However, I do have a counter point.

Fair enough. I still think a "likely/possibly 6-B" rating would work better for A+ NPs, but I guess it's just down to opinion.

 

[Wurm]

Arondight Overload is only an A-Rank. GOB and UBW vary from E~A++, so not every weapon should scale to the full value. Gil likely doesn't use the full force of GOB every time he uses it. IDK how Excalibur being A++ rank means most NPs scale to Gugalanna.

My point was, all A++ should scale above the Guanalanna calc based on rank, with A+ NPs possibly scaling. Anything A-rank or below should scale to other calcs. So no, most NPs shouldn't scale.


Fair enough. I still think a "likely/possibly 6-B" rating would work better for A+ NPs, but I guess it's just down to opinion

Arondight is stated to be an A++ ranked NP in Fate/Zero Material, Pages 24-25. It is ranked at A in FGO.

And I mentioned Excalibur in comparison to Bellarophen, due to Bellarophen overcoming Excalibur Morgan, which is I think stronger than Excalibur. But it would seem that that part of my message didn't make it in.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

Arondight is stated to be an A++ ranked NP in Fate/Zero Material, Pages 24-25. It is ranked at A in FGO.

The difference in rank between F/Zero and FGO is due to Lancelot's class. It just means that Berserker Lancelot and Saber Lancelot will scale to diff values with their NP. Berserkalot will get the 6-B scaling whereas Saberlot won't. It wouldn't be the first time an NP has dropped rank based on the user (e.g. Clarent).

IDK why Arondight drops 2 ranks when Lancelot changes class, but it's probably something to do with this mental state or something.

And I mentioned Excalibur in comparison to Bellarophen, due to Bellarophen overcoming Excalibur Morgan, which is I think stronger than Excalibur. But it would seem that that part of my message didn't make it in.

Excalibur Morgan was specifically stated to have offset something like 90% of Bellerophon's light and that was already with Shirou helping Rider by using Rho Aias to protect her. So I don't think any direct scaling would work.

 

[Paul_Frank]

On Arondight, it actually was A++ for Saberlot too, that's why you'll see translations of his servant profile have it listed as such, it was just changed like a bunch of other NP ranks when the materials came out.

To answer the question on what the interview means for Excalibur and those who scale to it, literally nothing

Its just a classic Nasu meaningless number scale, which has no deeper meaning than helping you understand the potential power difference between two things

As for the rest of the thread, I'd refrain from scaling anything to Gugalanna since it also just facetanks 6-A attacks in SF with its energy alone, but even besides that, its just straight up tier 1 (fights Prime Gil and Enkidu, strongest divine beast, yada yada) and yes, that includes its legs as those are part of it.

If you wanted to use Gugalanna Strike under the argument that its a non tier 1 attack or whatever for some reason, despite being part of the tier 1 entity, then scaling based on rank, so that only A++ stuff fully scales, A+ is possibly, and anything else doesn't scale, just simply doesn't work. Scaling things purely based on rank like that has been brought up like 5 times before and rejected each, since NPs are repeatedly shown to be relative even with rank disparities, at least relative enough that A++ scaling to 41 teratons while everything else is much lower, just doesn't work feasibly.

For instance, Lord Chaldeas, a D rank Noble Phantasm that doesn't actually have the powers of its true name activation due to the false name, tanks a shot from the A++ rank Excalibur Morgan, which would be completely impossible if they weren't at least relative, even with LC being a defense focused NP. Athanaton Ten Thousand is said to rival Ionioi Hetairoi despite only being A rank (Yes, EX rank which Ionioi Hetairoi has, is in fact higher as in stronger. We're told this in materials for FSN and stuff, there are very few cases where its not, and we are explicitly told so in those cases, i.e Edison). Balmung is A+, and stated and shown to be equal to Fafnir's breath, which is then blocked by the A rank Luminosité Eternelle. Brahmastra, an A+ (or EX) ranked NP, is beaten out by a B++ one in Gae Bolg, etc

This would also result in a really goofy scenario where Excalibur is A++ and thus scales, but Dead End Airgetlám which is Excalibur wouldn't scale or only possibly scale, purely because of its rank, same with MHX's NP outside of the servantverse, which is just Excalibur+Excalibur Morgan

I'm sure you see the point, and why scaling higher ranked NPs to values way above everything else has never been used, and has been rejected before, there's a lot smaller of a gap currently for that reason. But even besides that, I'd argue you probably just shouldn't try to scale stuff to Ishtar summoning a part of a tier 1 entity anyway. Also using it only for A++ while A+ is only possibly makes no sense because its A+ ranked.

 

[Wurm]

I was solely using Gugalanna Strike for A+ and higher scaling, namely for NPs like Excalibur, Clarent Overloaded Caliburn and the like. I personally feel that our NP scaling is all out of wack, solely due to these rank differences and such. I haven't said anything on the topic before due to having no solutions to offer.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

On Arondight, it actually was A++ for Saberlot too, that's why you'll see translations of his servant profile have it listed as such, it was just changed like a bunch of other NP ranks when the materials came out.

Oh yeah, forgot that was a thing. It does make sense of Arondight to keep its OG rank from Berzerkalot. I stand corrected.

Although, doesn't this kinda f@ck up how we currently scale base servants? The current Saberlot profile assumes Arondight is only A-rank and uses that to scale base stats to 1/3 of Bunyan's calc due to NOS Gawain facing Arondight. Wouldn't this need changing?

As for the Gugalanna thing, Ishtar's profile mentions that "Since it is not the case that it works as a physical materialization of the Bull of Heaven, it is also possible to employ this Noble Phantasm while confined by the space called 'the indoors', all done without destroying the structure".
Couldn't it be argued then that the NP is not as strong as the real thing? It is a weak argument I'll admit.

As for scaling NPs based on rank, isn't that literally how the current profiles work? A-rank NPs are scaled to Bunyan's calc, while A+ NPs and higher are scaled above the Fafnir Orleans calc (which needs to be nuked off the face of the planet). I was just going from what I thought was accepted. If I was wrong then my mistake

Anyways, there are also examples of NPs not at all being comparable, such as Excalibur literally one shoting Bellerophon and Rider. I'm not opposed to everything scaling to a similar/the same value, it just feels a little odd (I know, rubbish argument). The Airgetlám and MHX examples are good points tho

God I hate Fate scaling sometimes

 

[Wurm]

Oh yeah, forgot that was a thing. It does make sense of Arondight to keep its OG rank from Berzerkalot. I stand corrected.

Although, doesn't this kinda f@ck up how we currently scale base servants? The current Saberlot profile assumes Arondight is only A-rank and uses that to scale base stats to 1/3 of Bunyan's calc due to NOS Gawain facing Arondight. Wouldn't this need changing?

As for the Gugalanna thing, Ishtar's profile mentions that "Since it is not the case that it works as a physical materialization of the Bull of Heaven, it is also possible to employ this Noble Phantasm while confined by the space called 'the indoors', all done without destroying the structure".
Couldn't it be argued then that the NP is not as strong as the real thing? It is a weak argument I'll admit.

As for scaling NPs based on rank, isn't that literally how the current profiles work? A-rank NPs are scaled to Bunyan's calc, while A+ NPs and higher are scaled above the Fafnir Orleans calc (which needs to be nuked off the face of the planet). I was just going from what I thought was accepted. If I was wrong then my mistake

Anyways, there are also examples of NPs not at all being comparable, such as Excalibur literally one shoting Bellerophon and Rider. I'm not opposed to everything scaling to a similar/the same value, it just feels a little odd (I know, rubbish argument). The Airgetlám and MHX examples are good points tho

God I hate Fate scaling sometimes

Excalibur vs Bellerophon and Rider is a case of Rider being under control of Shinji, which we all know makes her laughably weak. As for base servant stats, this would mean that servants would get an amp in base to 1/3 of the gugalanna strike calc (which is, uh, iffy) or we find a new justification for Servant Base stats.

Furthermore, we may need to overhaul NP's totally, due to some statements from FGO, like Gram being comparable to the sun in power.

fate scaling is a menace.

 

[LehenDuo]

I was solely using Gugalanna Strike for A+ and higher scaling, namely for NPs like Excalibur, Clarent Overloaded Caliburn and the like. I personally feel that our NP scaling is all out of wack, solely due to these rank differences and such. I haven't said anything on the topic before due to having no solutions to offer.

Nasu himself has already said that this logic of scaling Rank A NPs as stronger than Rank B NPs isn't correct. Trying to scale power through Ranks will always result in wackiness due to the fact that that's not what they mean as a ranking. Even if using Ranks, there is differences between Anti-Unit, Army and Fortress that are explictly mention in materials and are indirectly mentioned many times that make comparison of the types questionable.

Using Ranks to scale power as if they are in the same "classification line" will always result in something awkward because the work itself has time and time again shown Ranks aren't exact numbers, but much more like a TL/DR that has stuck to the verse as a tradition-like thing.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Oh yeah, forgot that was a thing. It does make sense of Arondight to keep its OG rank from Berzerkalot. I stand corrected.

Although, doesn't this kinda f@ck up how we currently scale base servants? The current Saberlot profile assumes Arondight is only A-rank and uses that to scale base stats to 1/3 of Bunyan's calc due to NOS Gawain facing Arondight. Wouldn't this need changing?

No I think it might actually just have been retconned into A rank, because his strengthening quest makes it A+ rank

Which doesn't work if it was actually A++ still, so I guess Nasu just decided there was too much A++ stuff and dropped the rank. I just brought it up to explain the confusion over its rank above

As for the Gugalanna thing, Ishtar's profile mentions that "Since it is not the case that it works as a physical materialization of the Bull of Heaven, it is also possible to employ this Noble Phantasm while confined by the space called 'the indoors', all done without destroying the structure".
Couldn't it be argued then that the NP is not as strong as the real thing? It is a weak argument I'll admit.

Ehh, arguably, but it's definitely a bit iffy

As for scaling NPs based on rank, isn't that literally how the current profiles work? A-rank NPs are scaled to Bunyan's calc, while A+ NPs and higher are scaled above the Fafnir Orleans calc (which needs to be nuked off the face of the planet). I was just going from what I thought was accepted. If I was wrong then my mistake

It's sorta used mostly just in the sense that everything below A+ rank is Bunyan, and everything above is Orleans, but it's also accepted that they all scale like relative to eachother, which is fine with the currently used calcs since they're not actually too far off. That's however, not the case with the Gugalanna one, which would put it at over 500x all other NP and stats which is such a far amount above everything else that there's no way for lower rank things to ever win, if that calc was used, they'd have to just downscale from it some unknown amount for things to work.

Anyways, there are also examples of NPs not at all being comparable, such as Excalibur literally one shoting Bellerophon and Rider. I'm not opposed to everything scaling to a similar/the same value, it just feels a little odd (I know, rubbish argument). The Airgetlám and MHX examples are good points tho

Yeah, there are examples of some NPs being stronger than others, but then those same NPs will sometimes lose to ones weaker than the one they beat, it just seems to come down to rule of cool for Nasu, which is consistent with his explanation of ranks being that the actual values didn't mean much.

God I hate Fate scaling sometimes

Welcome to the club

 

[Wurm]

I should mention that there are numerous other Fate calcs out there that have been preformed by servants that could be used for their base stats. For example, Spartacus's near critical crying warmonger made an earthquake with his blows. Jeanne and Mordred blocked his attacks in the novel, manga and anime respectively, and neither were amped at the time. The results of this calc (which were accepted) are even similar to our current stuff for servants base stats, being 24 and 54 Gigatons. I'm just saying, we could potentially do away with the horrendously confusing scaling chain.

Also, Crying Warmonger is and A ranked NP, and has a Small Country Level feat (3.2 Teratons) which was accepted. Which further ruins our current scaling for servants base stats and NP's

 

[KingNanaya]

Yeah, the fate calcs need some work. I feel like the problem in the first place was saying that all A-rank NP's are at the same strength when they are shown to not be.

 

[Wurm]

Yeah, the fate calcs need some work. I feel like the problem in the first place was saying that all A-rank NP's are at the same strength when they are shown to not be.

That would be one of them, yes.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Spartacus's near critical crying warmonger made an earthquake with his blows. Jeanne and Mordred blocked his attacks in the novel, manga and anime respectively, and neither were amped at the time. The results of this calc (which were accepted) are even similar to our current stuff for servants base stats, being 24 and 54 Gigatons.

The fact that that got similar numbers to Bunya calc is one of the reasons to why it was accepted scale servants base and Rank A NP to 6-C, while Rank A+ scale to Low 6-B do to other calcs.

Also, Crying Warmonger is and A ranked NP, and has a Small Country Level feat (3.2 Teratons) which was accepted. Which further ruins our current scaling for servants base stats and NP's

Just saying but that was after Crying Warmonger become A+, which is why is used along the Orleans calc since both A+ NP got similar results.

 

[LehenDuo]

Also, Crying Warmonger is and A ranked NP, and has a Small Country Level feat (3.2 Teratons) which was accepted. Which further ruins our current scaling for servants base stats and NP's

Which calc is this? Because the meteor feat is vrey obviously an outlier as he litrally burns his Foundation to boost it.

 

[Wurm]

Which calc is this? Because the meteor feat is vrey obviously an outlier as he litrally burns his Foundation to boost it.

it's the calc titles "spartacus vs meteor" or smth. Can't link it due to being on mobile right now.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

How powerful are the true bodies of Heroic Spirits? They seem to be abstract entities beyond the concept of time

 

[Wurm]

How powerful are the true bodies of Heroic Spirits? They seem to be abstract entities beyond the concept of time

I'm unsure if we've ever talked about that.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I'm unsure if we've ever talked about that.

It's not like they fight or anything but they seem to be slaves to the World who uses their true bodies to project them in different parts of time as Servants so I assume they're a least a lot stronger than the Servant projections.

 

[Wurm]

It's not like they fight or anything but they seem to be slaves to the World who uses their true bodies to project them in different parts of time as Servants so I assume they're a least a lot stronger than the Servant projections.

you'd likely have to start another thread for that