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This is an issue that should've been addressed long ago honestly. While most people here will agree that Nasu is incredibly inconsistent, the debate over which WoG statements from him are viable has caused some major back and forth, notably here, here, here, and most recently, here. There's other threads I could've pulled from but the examples here should clearly show the dispute. While I personally think a few of Nasu's statements are probably fine, I unfortunately would have to lean more times than not he isn't a reliable source for various reasons. This is gonna be kinda big, but given this is a pretty major CRT, kinda bound to happen. So, let's go over some of his statements:
1. Nasu saying Shiki Tohno and Shiki Ryougi stand no chance against Servants.
Not sure if I have to go into detail about this one when the profiles for both already accepts that this is contradicted. We have Shiki Tohno scaling in both AP and speed to DAAs, who we scale to Servants. Ryougi also kills 99 Servants in Fate Extra, and we scale her to Melty Blood.
2. Saying Void Shiki is only defensive Servant level.
Yet another one horribly contradicted in verse, and we scale Void Shiki as the strongest anyways. Not only that, but he later placed Void among the strongest in his infamous Top 3 statement. Moving on since this one shouldn't require too much explanation.
3. Nasu has said 3 times that Arcueid is the strongest in verse (here, here, and here (last one is Remake Arc but still)) but then says ORT is.
The ORT example is the most recent thing I can think of him contradicting himself, which shows that even after all these years he isn't that reliable. And the timeframe between the Remake Arc and ORT strongest statements are literally just a few months apart.
4. Nasu said Aoko isn't a Magician in KNK:
Avz:
"It's the first post on the spoiler boards!
I'm asking this here since it's a bit of a spoiler.
The complete edition of Kara no Kyōkai coming out at the winter coiket is going to have errors corrected,
but does that include changes to the setting as well?
(For example, in Tsukihime the succession of the Fujou main family is done through the passing down of techniques,
while in Kyōkai it is determined by blood.)"
Kinoko:
"I'll answer that!
Regarding the Fujou, the setting isn't quite the same.
Though Rakkyo and Tsukihime have a lot of points in common, there are a few tiny differences in the details.
One of those is the Fujou. In reality they're actually ESP users like the Asagami, Ryougi, and Nanaya. But in Rakkyo they are a magi lineage.
Other than that... oh, right, there's Aoko's age. If Rakkyo and Tsukihime were the same world then Aoko would only be a little bit older than Tohno Shiki. The Aoko in Rakkyo has not yet gained the title of "Miss Blue", and is still training in Misaki Town."
However, Aoko is referenced several times as already being a Magician in the KNK novel.
"Currently there's only one magician in this country, so basically that kind of ward just can't be formed." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 4
"You are right. That is why a wizard was a feared figure in the past, and why being one could even be called a job. These days, though, it's different, isn't it? Strictly speaking, they aren't needed, the things called mages. These days, magic itself is disappearing. After all, you can count on your fingers the number of things that are impossible for humanity, can't you? Whatever the case, they say that there are only about five wizards in the world today." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
^the bottom example translates "Magician" to "Wizard", but the overall meaning is clear enough.
5. Now to cover the Ciel vs Kirei statement. Nasu said Kirei at his peak with Command Seals would win against her:
Takeuchi: Speaking of being powerful... Who's stronger: Ciel or Kirei?
Nasu: Ciel is by far more powerful. Just take her lineage into consideration, and add to that her immortality. Kirei's prowess in "Zero" was rooted in the sheer number of Command Spells at his disposal as much as it was in his obsession with Kiritsugu. Suffice to say, it was his golden age. I believe the "Zero" Kirei could have defeated Ciel.
However, Nasu contradicts himself on this as well:
Nasu: You want to know exactly how powerful Kirei is? You'll have to ask Gen Urobuchi. (laughs)**
Takeuchi: Well, after being doused in so much of the Holy Grail, I imagine his physical body has been weakened significantly from his "Zero" days.
Nasu: For someone who died like that to be alive ten years later is quite a feat in and of itself. - Fate/complete material II: Character Material - Characters: Kirei Kotomine, p.066-069
Meaning he considers Gen having more authority over how powerful Zero Kirei is, which makes sense since he's the writer of Fate Zero.
Another reason the Kirei vs Ciel statement doesn't make sense is it's outright stated twice that Ciel can kill normal Dead Apostles with extreme ease, and Kirei at his PEAK is only on par with normal Dead Apostles going by the F/Zero novel:
So not only would Kirei need Command Seals to amp himself to match Ciel going by the WoG statement, but he'd naturally be significantly weaker, and the Command Seal amps are only viable for one move each. I can't stress enough how shaky this statement is when we scale Ciel to Dead Apostle Ancestors, beings who are leagues above normal Dead Apostles (which I agree with btw. Good job there).
6. Shiki vs Shirou. Nasu said Shiki would win this fight, but immediately die from overuse of his Eyes of Death.
This greatly undersells the feats Shiki has accomplished with his Eyes: destroying Roa's soul, destroying a portion of Gaia to weaken Arcueid, killing Maiko when she was approaching real Chaos (aka a planet, or multiverse in Type Moon terms) and destroying the incomplete form of Tatari, which is metaphysical in nature. Suffice to say, Shiki dying from overuse of MEoD via killing Noble Phantasms is very...iffy to be blunt.
Edit: Oh, and Shiki killing Nrvnqsr Chaos is more impressive than people think considering Chaos has a Reality Marble in his body:
By the way, Nrvnqsr was able to escape the corrective influence of the world by using his reality marble within his own body. Way to go, Professor Chaos.
- Tsukihime Data Collection: Tsukihime Dictionary
7. Nasu said Shirou can't project Excalibur
Q: What is the limit of replication in UBW? The highest level of NP (sword types) is probably Ea, but while it might be impossible for Shirou, could Archer make it? Also, under the meaning of weapons, to what extent can he make modern weapons? Must it be only blade types or can he make guns and mobile weapons?
A: Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.
However, Shirou literally projects Excalibur in Heaven's Feel. A weaker, degraded version, but he can still projection it never the less.
Notice that Nasu said even EMIYA wouldn't be able to project Excalibur. EMIYA however implies he can, but at the cost of his life
"I can reproduce and store any weapon that I see the original of. This is my ability as a heroic spirit."
Saber gasps.
She looks with blank amazement at the extending graveyard of swords in the desert.
The ashen sky and steel wasteland, devoid of all life.
"This is… your world, Archer?"
"Yes. I do not mind if you would like to test it out.
I shall reproduce that holy sword of yours."
"My holy sword…? Are you saying that, knowing its true identity, Archer?"
"Of course. A weapon of such rank cannot be perfectly reproduced, but I can get it close.
What will happen in that case? Will the people around us survive when the two holy swords clash?"
"Wha - Archer, you…!"
"Yes. Do not use your holy sword, Saber. I will have to oppose you if you do.
In that case, the ones to disappear would not be us, but the people around us.
…Knowing you, you would protect that kid at the cost of your own life. Even I will die if I project the holy sword.
In that case, only Emiya Shirou would survive. That would be pointless."
^ link
8. Nasu said Shiki can fight normally in Melty Blood, but is unable to in Tsukihime.
"At this point, "MELTY BLOOD" caused a major contradiction.
Since this was a fighting game, the position of the protagonist, Tohno Shiki, a character that could participate in combat only by means of trump cards, was reversed, and he became involved in the story as a protagonist that can "fight normally".
"....Right. The characteristics of the characters in "MELTY BLOOD" had either been exaggerated or restrained from what they had been in Tsukihime." "Using cards as an example, Shiki of Tsukihime would be a 3 of Hearts. But the Shiki of "MELTY BLOOD" would be able to fight normally as a Jack of Spades."
- Melty Blood volume 1 - Nasu comments
To this, I'll just say read Tsukihime. I don't even know what trump card Nasu is even talking about in regards to Tsukihime Shiki. Even back in Tsukihime, Shiki has stalemated Ciel (while he was injured at that), fought on par with SHIKI and Roa multiple times, stomped Dead Apostle Satsuki, and the famous feat of him beating Nrvnqsr and his beasts.
9. Gilgamesh vs Saber Alter.
Nasu has said that a serious Gilgamesh would solo the 5th Holy Grail War:
"The Archer class Servant of the Fourth Holy Grail War. Though he was summoned by Tohsaka Tokiomi, he ended up deserting his master and re-contracting with Kotomine Kirei. He is the strongest character in both Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero.
In the boy-meets-girl story of the original Fate/stay night he was forced to yield to the universal law of "love conquers all", but in Fate/Zero he's free to show off his overwhelming, cheat-like strength without restraint. He could have ended the war in a single night if he truly desired to do so. But then, careless pride is the king's prerogative, and getting serious over something as frivolous as a wish-granter would be unbecoming."
- Fate/Zero material - Encyclopedia: Gilgamesh [Servant], p.094
However, he contradicts himself later by saying Saber Alter would've matched:
Q: If Saber Alter and Gilgamesh seriously fought each other, which of them would be stronger? <Takenoko>
Nasu: Dark Saber has lost what you call the protagonist’s compensation, or rather the glimmer of the stars. So a miracle wouldn’t happen against Gilgamesh, it would simply be a measure of their abilities...
Takeuchi: If it’s not in life but as Servants, wouldn’t it change a lot depending on who the Master is?
Nasu: Back when they were alive, both had extraordinary magical energy output so it would be a pure battle of firepower. With his omnipotence and cunning (INT), Gil is slightly advantageous here. If it’s a Servant battle, Dark Saber can win against Gil if the “Master’s capacity as a Mage” is high. Gil will win against Dark Saber if the “Master’s charm as a human” is high.
- Fate/stay night [Heaven’s Feel] II. lost butterfly Animation Material - Kinoko and Takashi Q
Also..."Living Saber Alter." A character who doesn't exist in any form.
There's other examples I could mention, but I seriously think this is enough to get the point across about Nasu's reliably for his WoG statements.
With all this said, my proposal is this:
From this point onwards, we drop all attempts at using Nasu's statements for scaling. Assuming this is accepted, we should edit the verse page saying Nasu's statements aren't usable, and link this thread going over why.
Also, if this goes through, I'm not asking to revise every single profile that'd be affected right away. I think the scaling for that could be discussed on a separate thread. This here is just rejecting all of Nasu's WoG due to being too unreliable, and to end the back and forth over which ones are and aren't usable. From now on, we just stick with what the stories and guidebooks tell us.
Iirc there was also talk of removing Servant parameters scaling, so that should definitely be hashed out on a separate thread as well before completely revising the verse scaling.
Edit: to be clear, guidebooks are still fine to use, just no direct Nasu statements from them. Doesn't matter if it's in a guidebook or not. If it's directly from Nasu, it will immediately be considered suspect.
Agree: @Tdjwo @Kisaragi_Megumi @Nexp06 @ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn @KingNanaya @SweetDao @Hasty12345 @Dark_Soul20189 @CurrySenpai @TheSilverKing14 @LordGinSama @Qliphoth_Bacikal @Robo432343 @Grand_Saver_Ritsuka @Franstel @HammerStrikes219
Staff agreement: @Deagonx @DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree: @ShadowWhoWalks
1. Nasu saying Shiki Tohno and Shiki Ryougi stand no chance against Servants.
Not sure if I have to go into detail about this one when the profiles for both already accepts that this is contradicted. We have Shiki Tohno scaling in both AP and speed to DAAs, who we scale to Servants. Ryougi also kills 99 Servants in Fate Extra, and we scale her to Melty Blood.
2. Saying Void Shiki is only defensive Servant level.
Yet another one horribly contradicted in verse, and we scale Void Shiki as the strongest anyways. Not only that, but he later placed Void among the strongest in his infamous Top 3 statement. Moving on since this one shouldn't require too much explanation.
3. Nasu has said 3 times that Arcueid is the strongest in verse (here, here, and here (last one is Remake Arc but still)) but then says ORT is.
The ORT example is the most recent thing I can think of him contradicting himself, which shows that even after all these years he isn't that reliable. And the timeframe between the Remake Arc and ORT strongest statements are literally just a few months apart.
4. Nasu said Aoko isn't a Magician in KNK:
Avz:
"It's the first post on the spoiler boards!
I'm asking this here since it's a bit of a spoiler.
The complete edition of Kara no Kyōkai coming out at the winter coiket is going to have errors corrected,
but does that include changes to the setting as well?
(For example, in Tsukihime the succession of the Fujou main family is done through the passing down of techniques,
while in Kyōkai it is determined by blood.)"
Kinoko:
"I'll answer that!
Regarding the Fujou, the setting isn't quite the same.
Though Rakkyo and Tsukihime have a lot of points in common, there are a few tiny differences in the details.
One of those is the Fujou. In reality they're actually ESP users like the Asagami, Ryougi, and Nanaya. But in Rakkyo they are a magi lineage.
Other than that... oh, right, there's Aoko's age. If Rakkyo and Tsukihime were the same world then Aoko would only be a little bit older than Tohno Shiki. The Aoko in Rakkyo has not yet gained the title of "Miss Blue", and is still training in Misaki Town."
However, Aoko is referenced several times as already being a Magician in the KNK novel.
"Currently there's only one magician in this country, so basically that kind of ward just can't be formed." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 4
"You are right. That is why a wizard was a feared figure in the past, and why being one could even be called a job. These days, though, it's different, isn't it? Strictly speaking, they aren't needed, the things called mages. These days, magic itself is disappearing. After all, you can count on your fingers the number of things that are impossible for humanity, can't you? Whatever the case, they say that there are only about five wizards in the world today." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
^the bottom example translates "Magician" to "Wizard", but the overall meaning is clear enough.
5. Now to cover the Ciel vs Kirei statement. Nasu said Kirei at his peak with Command Seals would win against her:
Takeuchi: Speaking of being powerful... Who's stronger: Ciel or Kirei?
Nasu: Ciel is by far more powerful. Just take her lineage into consideration, and add to that her immortality. Kirei's prowess in "Zero" was rooted in the sheer number of Command Spells at his disposal as much as it was in his obsession with Kiritsugu. Suffice to say, it was his golden age. I believe the "Zero" Kirei could have defeated Ciel.
However, Nasu contradicts himself on this as well:
Nasu: You want to know exactly how powerful Kirei is? You'll have to ask Gen Urobuchi. (laughs)**
Takeuchi: Well, after being doused in so much of the Holy Grail, I imagine his physical body has been weakened significantly from his "Zero" days.
Nasu: For someone who died like that to be alive ten years later is quite a feat in and of itself. - Fate/complete material II: Character Material - Characters: Kirei Kotomine, p.066-069
Meaning he considers Gen having more authority over how powerful Zero Kirei is, which makes sense since he's the writer of Fate Zero.
Another reason the Kirei vs Ciel statement doesn't make sense is it's outright stated twice that Ciel can kill normal Dead Apostles with extreme ease, and Kirei at his PEAK is only on par with normal Dead Apostles going by the F/Zero novel:
Monster. There were no other words to describe the man before him. At this moment, Kotomine Kirei’s current combat ability is equal to that of a Dead Apostle - Fate/Zero Act 16`So not only would Kirei need Command Seals to amp himself to match Ciel going by the WoG statement, but he'd naturally be significantly weaker, and the Command Seal amps are only viable for one move each. I can't stress enough how shaky this statement is when we scale Ciel to Dead Apostle Ancestors, beings who are leagues above normal Dead Apostles (which I agree with btw. Good job there).
6. Shiki vs Shirou. Nasu said Shiki would win this fight, but immediately die from overuse of his Eyes of Death.
This greatly undersells the feats Shiki has accomplished with his Eyes: destroying Roa's soul, destroying a portion of Gaia to weaken Arcueid, killing Maiko when she was approaching real Chaos (aka a planet, or multiverse in Type Moon terms) and destroying the incomplete form of Tatari, which is metaphysical in nature. Suffice to say, Shiki dying from overuse of MEoD via killing Noble Phantasms is very...iffy to be blunt.
Edit: Oh, and Shiki killing Nrvnqsr Chaos is more impressive than people think considering Chaos has a Reality Marble in his body:
By the way, Nrvnqsr was able to escape the corrective influence of the world by using his reality marble within his own body. Way to go, Professor Chaos.
- Tsukihime Data Collection: Tsukihime Dictionary
7. Nasu said Shirou can't project Excalibur
Q: What is the limit of replication in UBW? The highest level of NP (sword types) is probably Ea, but while it might be impossible for Shirou, could Archer make it? Also, under the meaning of weapons, to what extent can he make modern weapons? Must it be only blade types or can he make guns and mobile weapons?
A: Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.
However, Shirou literally projects Excalibur in Heaven's Feel. A weaker, degraded version, but he can still projection it never the less.
Notice that Nasu said even EMIYA wouldn't be able to project Excalibur. EMIYA however implies he can, but at the cost of his life
"I can reproduce and store any weapon that I see the original of. This is my ability as a heroic spirit."
Saber gasps.
She looks with blank amazement at the extending graveyard of swords in the desert.
The ashen sky and steel wasteland, devoid of all life.
"This is… your world, Archer?"
"Yes. I do not mind if you would like to test it out.
I shall reproduce that holy sword of yours."
"My holy sword…? Are you saying that, knowing its true identity, Archer?"
"Of course. A weapon of such rank cannot be perfectly reproduced, but I can get it close.
What will happen in that case? Will the people around us survive when the two holy swords clash?"
"Wha - Archer, you…!"
"Yes. Do not use your holy sword, Saber. I will have to oppose you if you do.
In that case, the ones to disappear would not be us, but the people around us.
…Knowing you, you would protect that kid at the cost of your own life. Even I will die if I project the holy sword.
In that case, only Emiya Shirou would survive. That would be pointless."
^ link
8. Nasu said Shiki can fight normally in Melty Blood, but is unable to in Tsukihime.
"At this point, "MELTY BLOOD" caused a major contradiction.
Since this was a fighting game, the position of the protagonist, Tohno Shiki, a character that could participate in combat only by means of trump cards, was reversed, and he became involved in the story as a protagonist that can "fight normally".
"....Right. The characteristics of the characters in "MELTY BLOOD" had either been exaggerated or restrained from what they had been in Tsukihime." "Using cards as an example, Shiki of Tsukihime would be a 3 of Hearts. But the Shiki of "MELTY BLOOD" would be able to fight normally as a Jack of Spades."
- Melty Blood volume 1 - Nasu comments
To this, I'll just say read Tsukihime. I don't even know what trump card Nasu is even talking about in regards to Tsukihime Shiki. Even back in Tsukihime, Shiki has stalemated Ciel (while he was injured at that), fought on par with SHIKI and Roa multiple times, stomped Dead Apostle Satsuki, and the famous feat of him beating Nrvnqsr and his beasts.
9. Gilgamesh vs Saber Alter.
Nasu has said that a serious Gilgamesh would solo the 5th Holy Grail War:
"The Archer class Servant of the Fourth Holy Grail War. Though he was summoned by Tohsaka Tokiomi, he ended up deserting his master and re-contracting with Kotomine Kirei. He is the strongest character in both Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero.
In the boy-meets-girl story of the original Fate/stay night he was forced to yield to the universal law of "love conquers all", but in Fate/Zero he's free to show off his overwhelming, cheat-like strength without restraint. He could have ended the war in a single night if he truly desired to do so. But then, careless pride is the king's prerogative, and getting serious over something as frivolous as a wish-granter would be unbecoming."
- Fate/Zero material - Encyclopedia: Gilgamesh [Servant], p.094
However, he contradicts himself later by saying Saber Alter would've matched:
Q: If Saber Alter and Gilgamesh seriously fought each other, which of them would be stronger? <Takenoko>
Nasu: Dark Saber has lost what you call the protagonist’s compensation, or rather the glimmer of the stars. So a miracle wouldn’t happen against Gilgamesh, it would simply be a measure of their abilities...
Takeuchi: If it’s not in life but as Servants, wouldn’t it change a lot depending on who the Master is?
Nasu: Back when they were alive, both had extraordinary magical energy output so it would be a pure battle of firepower. With his omnipotence and cunning (INT), Gil is slightly advantageous here. If it’s a Servant battle, Dark Saber can win against Gil if the “Master’s capacity as a Mage” is high. Gil will win against Dark Saber if the “Master’s charm as a human” is high.
- Fate/stay night [Heaven’s Feel] II. lost butterfly Animation Material - Kinoko and Takashi Q
Also..."Living Saber Alter." A character who doesn't exist in any form.
There's other examples I could mention, but I seriously think this is enough to get the point across about Nasu's reliably for his WoG statements.
With all this said, my proposal is this:
From this point onwards, we drop all attempts at using Nasu's statements for scaling. Assuming this is accepted, we should edit the verse page saying Nasu's statements aren't usable, and link this thread going over why.
Also, if this goes through, I'm not asking to revise every single profile that'd be affected right away. I think the scaling for that could be discussed on a separate thread. This here is just rejecting all of Nasu's WoG due to being too unreliable, and to end the back and forth over which ones are and aren't usable. From now on, we just stick with what the stories and guidebooks tell us.
Iirc there was also talk of removing Servant parameters scaling, so that should definitely be hashed out on a separate thread as well before completely revising the verse scaling.
Edit: to be clear, guidebooks are still fine to use, just no direct Nasu statements from them. Doesn't matter if it's in a guidebook or not. If it's directly from Nasu, it will immediately be considered suspect.
Agree: @Tdjwo @Kisaragi_Megumi @Nexp06 @ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn @KingNanaya @SweetDao @Hasty12345 @Dark_Soul20189 @CurrySenpai @TheSilverKing14 @LordGinSama @Qliphoth_Bacikal @Robo432343 @Grand_Saver_Ritsuka @Franstel @HammerStrikes219
Staff agreement: @Deagonx @DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree: @ShadowWhoWalks
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