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Goku can fr fr
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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
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LamentSatanael
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Oh, you're a translation helper now. 'Grats.
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you know I'm getting into the fate series a little bit. (mostly playing the games. Currently playing fate SR), and it's kind of hilarious to me that. Character's are either Island level to small country level to multicontinental for very VERY few NP... Or 1-C. There is zero in between. Or if there is any in between, I haven't seen it.
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,180
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oh I know there are weird feats, and I've seen some pretty odd scalings for fate generally. But I'm not invested enough into fate to debate on if the average servant get's to Planet level (one of said scalings I've seen) or higher. (Planet level as we understand it anyway's. I know barely enough fate lore to know planet busting isn't just planet busting.)
Last edited:
Vietthai96
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This is still mid, there are alot of characters and verses jump from below tier 2 to something like 1-B to 1-A
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yes but it's very few verses I follow. Fate is the main one I think of with this power gap.
LamentSatanael
Username Only- 149
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That does make me wonder who's the lowest tier (an established character) from Fate specifically.
Any ideas?
Any ideas?
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Shinji is just Human Level
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The Alive version of Euryale is 10-C.
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@LamentSatanael testing testing 1 2 3
LamentSatanael
Username Only- 149
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Wank
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Unlimited power!
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Ah yes strawman this quote and omit context as usual.
Having a kid fundamentally breaks both Shiki and Mikiya Here's why
This Epilogue passage is key to understanding Mikiya's true character.
Mikiya is described as living a "normal" life that is harmless and inoffensive. He embodies a kind of neutrality and ordinariness that makes him blend into the background, making him seem less "special" on the surface.
Despite his apparent normality, the passage highlights that he possesses a unique quality—his genuine contentment with an average, conflict-free life. This makes him inherently special in a way that is not easily understood by others, including Shiki.
Mikiya’s specialness lies in his simplicity and contentment, which are rare and difficult for others to understand. This makes him a living example of the concept that every human is special and unique, yet often not fully comprehended by others.
In short, going back to FG, Mikiya's life, described as harmless and inoffensive, suggests a fundamental desire to avoid significant changes like having a child, aligning with his established character traits of neutrality and simplicity. His tendency to avoid extremes and his contentment with his current life would logically make him resistant to that type of changes. FG would need to address how and why Mikiya overcomes these boundaries and changes his views...Which it doesn't, at all.
Likewise, Shiki also doesn’t express a desire for anything beyond their relationship. Introducing a daughter contradicts this established satisfaction and changes the dynamics of her contentment. To expand further on that, Shiki explicitly despises humanity:
The reason Mikiya is an exception is explained in the excerpt from the Epilogue I posted above.
So why on Earth would someone who hates humans like Shiki want to indeed create another one? Given Shiki’s disdain for humanity, the prospect of her child embodying the very traits she detests is a significant deterrent. She is aware that most humans do not share her unique abilities or her existential outlook, and the likelihood of her child being an ordinary human is high.
Additionally, Shiki’s understanding of the world includes a deep awareness of suffering and despair inherent in human life. Bringing a child into such a world, with the risk of them experiencing these negative aspects, is contrary to her protective instincts for those she truly cares about, primarily Mikiya.
But most importantly, her Origin is wanting to end all things:
Void even says right here that her natural inclination is to negate. Wishing the death of all creation. Of course, she may resist that, but she couldn't logically go in the opposite direction and desire to want to create MORE life. Shiki’s impulses are oriented towards ending rather than beginning. The act of creating and nurturing new life directly contradicts these impulses. While she can resist these impulses for Mikiya, actively going against them to create new life is a much more significant step that contradicts her core nature. The Novel itself makes the point clear too:
Mikiya refuses Void's wish granting because he is fine with things as they are, but also because to him, Shiki is someone specialised in destroying. Meaning it really wouldn't even be the Shiki he knows if she could suddenly now create. He understands that Shiki's essence is centered around destruction rather than creation. For Mikiya, accepting any alteration to Shiki's nature would fundamentally change who she is to him. Shiki's ability to break things is not just a skill but a core part of her identity, making the idea of her suddenly being able to create or give birth discordant with her true self as he knows her. The same exact logic would be applied to her having a child and giving birth.Their relationship is built on mutual understanding and acceptance, not on conforming to societal norms. Indeed, Void right afterwards further explains that Shiki's Origin is Nil, aligning her with rejection and nihilism. This deep-seated aspect of her identity reinforces her inclination towards negation rather than affirmation, which plays a significant role in her reluctance towards parenthood.
Moreover, Shiki's existential outlook, shaped by her unique abilities and understanding of the world, makes the prospect of bringing new life into a world filled with suffering and uncertainty deeply conflicting for her. Shiki's negative view of humanity implies a reluctance to bring another human into a world she perceives as flawed and full of suffering. She is likely aware of the potential for despair and the inherent flaws in human nature, making her hesitant to contribute to the continuation of humanity. Moreover, she would be unwilling to risk that her child might embody values that contradict hers, potentially perpetuating the qualities she despises in humanity.
Thus, both Mikiya's understanding of Shiki and Void's insights into her Origin underscore why Shiki Ryougi would be apprehensive about having children. It's not merely a matter of personal preference but a profound alignment with her core nature and existential outlook as depicted throughout the novel series. Yet Future Gospel completely goes against this. It's quite literally not compatible with the original KnK, even if we ignore the overarching canon split of Type-Moon.
FG-era Ryougi in Case Files even left town over a simple disagreement with Mikiya, which is just preposterous and completely out of character. Ryougi's bond with Mikiya is central to her identity, and she's portrayed as unable to live without him. Her leaving town merely because she didn't agree with him on helping some randoms undermines the strong bond depicted in KnK. This action contradicts the depth of their relationship as shown in the original series, where disagreements were still present, but did not lead to such drastic measures:
Look at this even:
Mikiya is her one and only reason for living. It's made clear countless of times in the story. And my explanation above regarding Mikiya's potential Origin being "Boundaries" shows just how much it is necessary for the two of them to be together.
Additionally, Touko's sudden request for Mikiya's involvement in new matters, despite her decision to distance herself from them at the end of KnK, seems to contradict the notion that she recognised the need for Ryougi and Mikiya to lead a normal life, away from the dangers and complexities of the supernatural world. Her abrupt change in behavior in FG-era depicted in Case Files, therefore, seems inconsistent with her previous actions and beliefs.
Similarly, Shiki's disinterest in her family has been a recurring theme throughout KnK. She has consistently demonstrated a preference for solitude and independence, with little desire to assume the responsibilities associated with her family's legacy. To the point she even disliked being called with her family's name. Thus, her sudden assumption of the role of family head in Future Gospel contradicts her established character traits. While Ryougi does visit her family's place in Melty Blood, it's essential to consider the context. This visit could be interpreted as a result of Mikiya's suggestion in Chapter 1 to maintain familial ties, rather than an indication of Ryougi's desire to take on familial responsibilities. Therefore, her presence at her family's home does not necessarily imply a change in her attitude towards her family or her willingness to become its head. Especially when her brother could easily fulfill that role. Mikiya is often the stabilizing force in Shiki’s life, encouraging her to maintain some ties to the world around her. If Mikiya suggested they stay the night at her family’s house, Shiki might have gone along with it, not because she particularly wanted to, but because she trusts Mikiya’s judgment. This could also be a way of appeasing him or showing that she’s willing to make small concessions in her life for the sake of their relationship. Besides, Shiki is a pragmatic character. If staying at her family’s house for one night was convenient or necessary, she might do so without attaching much emotional significance to it. For example, if she and Mikiya were visiting her family and it got late, or if it was simply more convenient than returning to their home, she might stay the night as a practical choice. This is consistent with Shiki’s character, who might find it convenient to rely on her family when it suits her but without any real change in her underlying indifference toward them. This scenario doesn’t contradict her indifference toward her family; instead, it reinforces the idea that she interacts with them on her own terms, without compromising her true feelings or character. Far different from the ridiculous scenario in Future Gospel.
Moreover, the introduction of Mana as a character in Future Gospel presents further complications. Mana is literally Azaka 2.0 essentially. Given Ryougi's established personality, it's reasonable to assume that she would clash with Mana, who shares traits with Azaka. This potential conflict adds another layer of inconsistency to the narrative. Especially when considering that Mana's goal of "beating her mother so she can have her papa" would disrupt the peaceful dynamic that Ryougi and Mikiya have worked so hard to achieve. It literally destroys everything about KnK's narrative. On top of serving zero narrative purpose in the first place.
The narrative of Kara no Kyoukai concludes with Ryougi achieving her goal of a normal life, suggesting that any continuation or divergence from this ending would undermine the thematic resolution of her character arc.
There is no realistic scenario where they have a kid. Even as an accident. There is also no reason for either of them to desire one in the first place. Shiki's disdain for humanity and her deep-seated tendency towards rejection, fundamentally shape her outlook on life. This existential distance from conventional human desires, including parenthood, is a defining aspect of her character throughout the series.Secondly, Mikiya's character is anchored in a desire for stability and a tranquil life. Void even remarked that this made him special in her eyes ironically. His commitment to this serene existence contrasts sharply with the responsibilities and disruptions that parenthood would inevitably bring.Both characters have been developed in a way that emphasizes their individuality and unique perspectives within the narrative. The problem of MF is that it does not explain why they went against their nature this much. At all.
Additionally, "Future Gospel" was part of a cancelled spin-off series, further complicating its relevance to the main story. The cancellation of the series suggests that its continuation was not deemed necessary or essential to the overarching narrative. Combined with the fact that the second entry of said series was some irrelevant side shit in a dream world, and there is really no way to attribute to FG the same relevancy of the actual KnK.
So, in other words, saying Shiki would like having a child and would just randomly go the opposite way of her true canonical self just proves that FG destroys KNK's narrative and tries to make it something which it is not. Furthermore, let me give you an example of how ridiculous FG actually sounds:
Walter White, protagonist of Breaking Bad, is many things: prideful, arrogant, manipulative, power-hungry, tyrannical, and ruthless, as well as scheming and egomaniacal. Imagine one day while Walt cooks meth he suddenly turns himself in to the police and starts uncontrollably sobbing like some cringe soy boy and confessing to everything he has done and becomes a man who completely gives up his pride and arrogance, which are the two things that have been his natural inclinations since childhood and everything we know about him in Bre Ba. This is basically how it feels hearing about Shiki in FG except, it's even worse since Shiki's very origin aka her conceptual foundation which cannot be overcome once it is awakened (Which Ryougi's was at birth at that mind you) is Nihilism and she ardently wishes the death of all of creation and this is where her murderous impulses come from etc.
Souske Aizen, the main villain of Bleach as a whole, is a man who, like Walter, is a prideful, egomaniacal, selfish, brutal, as well as misanthropic, extremely individualistic, and ax-crazy nihilistic psychopath who laughs like the Joker from DC and wears all white, as well as going on about how morals, etc. are all social constructs that hold your power back, etc., and is also a man who believes in nothing but himself and arrogantly declared he was going to "dethrone that thing," aka the soul king, and stand on top of heaven and earth as the one ruler of all. Imagine if he suddenly, while coming up with an evil plan, decided to turn himself in to the soul society and suddenly went in the opposite direction of his true self and had no real explanation or anything behind it, and it's the same established character. Your reaction would be extremely jarred and annoyed as the character that has been consistently established as one thing now suddenly changes ways and started crying about how he is wrong and how he'll make it up to them etc. Both Aizen and Shiki fundamentally hate anyone due to their established natures and would never ever resort to believing in the "things of lower and dumber beings"
And to further prove the point, FG is actually shown to be in Case Files, which is part of the current Type-Moon canon and takes place in Fate Worlds. While the original KnK takes place in the original Tsukihime Worlds, as evident by the fact Ryougi is in Melty Blood and many other sources. The original KnK, which very clearly takes place in Tsukihime Worlds, has no relation to FG, which is depicted as being part of Fate Worlds.
No seriously, just take a deep look at Shiki's own character development and the suffering she had to endure: Born as an anomaly that the World itself wanted to erase, Shiki's very existence was difficult. Her family, driven by their ambition, intervened and brought her into existence as an "empty vessel" meant to embody their ultimate legacy. It's hard not to question if they ever genuinely loved her. Throughout the novel, Shiki refers to them with a cold formality and their interactions are steeped in the air of aristocratic detachment.From the start, Shiki’s life was devoid of genuine affection. She was raised to be a successor, not as a daughter. The only semblance of love she received came from SHIKI, the other self inside her. While SHIKI’s love was profound and unparalleled, it was also a double-edged sword. It made Shiki acutely aware of how incapable humans were of such unconditional love, further alienating her from them. The murderous impulses she believed came from SHIKI only deepened her isolation. To her, the only person who cared for her was also a source of great danger, making her fear that any semblance of normalcy or connection would eventually be tainted by violence. These impulses made her see humanity as inherently flawed and distasteful. She hated the idea of being a slave to these primal urges, which she thought would make her even worse than the humans she despised.Adding to her misery was her grandfather’s doctrine, which instilled in her a bleak outlook: kill, and you’ll end up alone and despised. Which only made Shiki feel even more doomed. Shiki spent her life training to become something she didn't care about, surrounded by people she saw as unworthy of her time. The one bright spot in her life was SHIKI, but even that was overshadowed by the inevitable reality that her moments of happiness were fleeting and doomed to end in isolation.
Then came Mikiya, a symbol of stability and normalcy that seemed almost miraculous to Shiki. For a while, he represented everything she had ever dreamed of—someone who made her emptiness feel meaningful. But Mikiya's presence also disrupted the uneasy balance with SHIKI. Shiki knew that eventually, she would lose control and that SHIKI would destroy Mikiya, which led her to distance herself from him, believing it would be less cruel to be away from something beautiful that she couldn’t protect. Resigned to her fate, Shiki found Mikiya’s unwavering faith in her both crushing and oddly hopeful. His belief, despite everything, was like a cruel joke, offering a fleeting illusion of a dream she thought was forever out of reach.As her emotional state deteriorated, Shiki contemplated ending Mikiya's life herself to protect him from the destruction she feared would come from SHIKI. But the unexpected intervention by Araya Souren, who saved Mikiya, gave Shiki a brief moment of clarity. Unable to reconcile her own feelings and her failure to protect Mikiya, Shiki resolved that if she couldn’t make him disappear, her only remaining choice was to end her own life. This resolution triggered a series of events that left her in a coma for two years, drifting in Akasha—a desolate void where she was left to confront nothingness and death. Waking up to find SHIKI gone—the one being who had truly loved her—was devastating. On top of that, her memories were fragmented, and the Shiki Ryougi she remembered felt like a distant stranger. The void within her only grew deeper, and the discovery of her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception revealed a world teetering on the brink of oblivion. They showed her that the Death she experienced those 2 years was actually always around the corner, and that all things are but one step away from fading away. This insight was overwhelming, pushing her to the brink of destroying her own eyes in a desperate attempt to escape her existential dread.
Yet, even in her darkest moments, Mikiya’s unwavering presence was a beacon of consistency. As she struggled with her lingering impulses and her identity, she found solace in Mikiya's constancy and the reminder from Touko that SHIKI had died for a reason—to give her a chance to fulfill their dream. Driven by this realisation, Shiki chose to honor SHIKI’s memory by trying to make something meaningful out of her life and build an identity of her own free from the torments of the past, even as she feared her own impulses would ultimately ruin everything. The hug with Mikiya at the end of Shiki’s journey is profoundly powerful, perhaps the first real embrace she’s ever known. It symbolizes not just the end of her trials but the fulfillment of a dream that had seemed forever out of reach. The ending of Kara no Kyoukai is a testament to Shiki’s endurance and her deserving of the love and happiness she ultimately finds.
And yet I'm supposed to believe that Ryougi would suddenly return to her family, whom she had little regard for, and comply with their expectations? It's even harder to believe that she would then succumb to typical human instincts (When her entire story is fighting these urges or instincts mind you. With those common in humans being one of the reasons she hates people) and decide to have a daughter. Given Shiki’s and Mikiya’s natures—both of which seem to reject such conventional desires—this development feels out of character.Shiki is deeply aware of humanity’s flaws and her own fundamental differences from them. Her primary attachment is to Mikiya, who represents the only source of meaning and connection in her life. So why would she bring a child into the world, knowing that this new life might inherit the very traits she despises? The prospect of their daughter potentially suffering a grim fate or growing up to cause suffering herself is also troubling, especially considering the likelihood of her inheriting the Ryougi family’s dual personality trait. This could mean she’d end up as conflicted and miserable as Shiki’s grandfather, unable to balance her darker impulses without the Origin of Nothingness that Shiki herself possesses.
It’s also baffling to consider that Shiki and Mikiya would genuinely desire a child, given that this goes against both their worldviews and personal natures. Shiki, who harbors a deep-seated disdain for the world and its dangers, would be knowingly subjecting a new life to the same suffering she endured. This child could either become a source of suffering for others or fall victim to a tragic fate, mirroring the pain Shiki herself experienced.
This aligns with his character as someone who values the stability and normality of their life together. The decision to have a child would contradict this expressed satisfaction and his fundamental desire for a simple life.
This Epilogue passage is key to understanding Mikiya's true character.
Mikiya is described as living a "normal" life that is harmless and inoffensive. He embodies a kind of neutrality and ordinariness that makes him blend into the background, making him seem less "special" on the surface.
Despite his apparent normality, the passage highlights that he possesses a unique quality—his genuine contentment with an average, conflict-free life. This makes him inherently special in a way that is not easily understood by others, including Shiki.
Mikiya’s specialness lies in his simplicity and contentment, which are rare and difficult for others to understand. This makes him a living example of the concept that every human is special and unique, yet often not fully comprehended by others.
In short, going back to FG, Mikiya's life, described as harmless and inoffensive, suggests a fundamental desire to avoid significant changes like having a child, aligning with his established character traits of neutrality and simplicity. His tendency to avoid extremes and his contentment with his current life would logically make him resistant to that type of changes. FG would need to address how and why Mikiya overcomes these boundaries and changes his views...Which it doesn't, at all.
Likewise, Shiki also doesn’t express a desire for anything beyond their relationship. Introducing a daughter contradicts this established satisfaction and changes the dynamics of her contentment. To expand further on that, Shiki explicitly despises humanity:
The reason Mikiya is an exception is explained in the excerpt from the Epilogue I posted above.
So why on Earth would someone who hates humans like Shiki want to indeed create another one? Given Shiki’s disdain for humanity, the prospect of her child embodying the very traits she detests is a significant deterrent. She is aware that most humans do not share her unique abilities or her existential outlook, and the likelihood of her child being an ordinary human is high.
Additionally, Shiki’s understanding of the world includes a deep awareness of suffering and despair inherent in human life. Bringing a child into such a world, with the risk of them experiencing these negative aspects, is contrary to her protective instincts for those she truly cares about, primarily Mikiya.
But most importantly, her Origin is wanting to end all things:
Void even says right here that her natural inclination is to negate. Wishing the death of all creation. Of course, she may resist that, but she couldn't logically go in the opposite direction and desire to want to create MORE life. Shiki’s impulses are oriented towards ending rather than beginning. The act of creating and nurturing new life directly contradicts these impulses. While she can resist these impulses for Mikiya, actively going against them to create new life is a much more significant step that contradicts her core nature. The Novel itself makes the point clear too:
Mikiya refuses Void's wish granting because he is fine with things as they are, but also because to him, Shiki is someone specialised in destroying. Meaning it really wouldn't even be the Shiki he knows if she could suddenly now create. He understands that Shiki's essence is centered around destruction rather than creation. For Mikiya, accepting any alteration to Shiki's nature would fundamentally change who she is to him. Shiki's ability to break things is not just a skill but a core part of her identity, making the idea of her suddenly being able to create or give birth discordant with her true self as he knows her. The same exact logic would be applied to her having a child and giving birth.Their relationship is built on mutual understanding and acceptance, not on conforming to societal norms. Indeed, Void right afterwards further explains that Shiki's Origin is Nil, aligning her with rejection and nihilism. This deep-seated aspect of her identity reinforces her inclination towards negation rather than affirmation, which plays a significant role in her reluctance towards parenthood.
Moreover, Shiki's existential outlook, shaped by her unique abilities and understanding of the world, makes the prospect of bringing new life into a world filled with suffering and uncertainty deeply conflicting for her. Shiki's negative view of humanity implies a reluctance to bring another human into a world she perceives as flawed and full of suffering. She is likely aware of the potential for despair and the inherent flaws in human nature, making her hesitant to contribute to the continuation of humanity. Moreover, she would be unwilling to risk that her child might embody values that contradict hers, potentially perpetuating the qualities she despises in humanity.
Thus, both Mikiya's understanding of Shiki and Void's insights into her Origin underscore why Shiki Ryougi would be apprehensive about having children. It's not merely a matter of personal preference but a profound alignment with her core nature and existential outlook as depicted throughout the novel series. Yet Future Gospel completely goes against this. It's quite literally not compatible with the original KnK, even if we ignore the overarching canon split of Type-Moon.
FG-era Ryougi in Case Files even left town over a simple disagreement with Mikiya, which is just preposterous and completely out of character. Ryougi's bond with Mikiya is central to her identity, and she's portrayed as unable to live without him. Her leaving town merely because she didn't agree with him on helping some randoms undermines the strong bond depicted in KnK. This action contradicts the depth of their relationship as shown in the original series, where disagreements were still present, but did not lead to such drastic measures:
Look at this even:
Mikiya is her one and only reason for living. It's made clear countless of times in the story. And my explanation above regarding Mikiya's potential Origin being "Boundaries" shows just how much it is necessary for the two of them to be together.
Additionally, Touko's sudden request for Mikiya's involvement in new matters, despite her decision to distance herself from them at the end of KnK, seems to contradict the notion that she recognised the need for Ryougi and Mikiya to lead a normal life, away from the dangers and complexities of the supernatural world. Her abrupt change in behavior in FG-era depicted in Case Files, therefore, seems inconsistent with her previous actions and beliefs.
Similarly, Shiki's disinterest in her family has been a recurring theme throughout KnK. She has consistently demonstrated a preference for solitude and independence, with little desire to assume the responsibilities associated with her family's legacy. To the point she even disliked being called with her family's name. Thus, her sudden assumption of the role of family head in Future Gospel contradicts her established character traits. While Ryougi does visit her family's place in Melty Blood, it's essential to consider the context. This visit could be interpreted as a result of Mikiya's suggestion in Chapter 1 to maintain familial ties, rather than an indication of Ryougi's desire to take on familial responsibilities. Therefore, her presence at her family's home does not necessarily imply a change in her attitude towards her family or her willingness to become its head. Especially when her brother could easily fulfill that role. Mikiya is often the stabilizing force in Shiki’s life, encouraging her to maintain some ties to the world around her. If Mikiya suggested they stay the night at her family’s house, Shiki might have gone along with it, not because she particularly wanted to, but because she trusts Mikiya’s judgment. This could also be a way of appeasing him or showing that she’s willing to make small concessions in her life for the sake of their relationship. Besides, Shiki is a pragmatic character. If staying at her family’s house for one night was convenient or necessary, she might do so without attaching much emotional significance to it. For example, if she and Mikiya were visiting her family and it got late, or if it was simply more convenient than returning to their home, she might stay the night as a practical choice. This is consistent with Shiki’s character, who might find it convenient to rely on her family when it suits her but without any real change in her underlying indifference toward them. This scenario doesn’t contradict her indifference toward her family; instead, it reinforces the idea that she interacts with them on her own terms, without compromising her true feelings or character. Far different from the ridiculous scenario in Future Gospel.
Moreover, the introduction of Mana as a character in Future Gospel presents further complications. Mana is literally Azaka 2.0 essentially. Given Ryougi's established personality, it's reasonable to assume that she would clash with Mana, who shares traits with Azaka. This potential conflict adds another layer of inconsistency to the narrative. Especially when considering that Mana's goal of "beating her mother so she can have her papa" would disrupt the peaceful dynamic that Ryougi and Mikiya have worked so hard to achieve. It literally destroys everything about KnK's narrative. On top of serving zero narrative purpose in the first place.
The narrative of Kara no Kyoukai concludes with Ryougi achieving her goal of a normal life, suggesting that any continuation or divergence from this ending would undermine the thematic resolution of her character arc.
There is no realistic scenario where they have a kid. Even as an accident. There is also no reason for either of them to desire one in the first place. Shiki's disdain for humanity and her deep-seated tendency towards rejection, fundamentally shape her outlook on life. This existential distance from conventional human desires, including parenthood, is a defining aspect of her character throughout the series.Secondly, Mikiya's character is anchored in a desire for stability and a tranquil life. Void even remarked that this made him special in her eyes ironically. His commitment to this serene existence contrasts sharply with the responsibilities and disruptions that parenthood would inevitably bring.Both characters have been developed in a way that emphasizes their individuality and unique perspectives within the narrative. The problem of MF is that it does not explain why they went against their nature this much. At all.
Additionally, "Future Gospel" was part of a cancelled spin-off series, further complicating its relevance to the main story. The cancellation of the series suggests that its continuation was not deemed necessary or essential to the overarching narrative. Combined with the fact that the second entry of said series was some irrelevant side shit in a dream world, and there is really no way to attribute to FG the same relevancy of the actual KnK.
So, in other words, saying Shiki would like having a child and would just randomly go the opposite way of her true canonical self just proves that FG destroys KNK's narrative and tries to make it something which it is not. Furthermore, let me give you an example of how ridiculous FG actually sounds:
Walter White, protagonist of Breaking Bad, is many things: prideful, arrogant, manipulative, power-hungry, tyrannical, and ruthless, as well as scheming and egomaniacal. Imagine one day while Walt cooks meth he suddenly turns himself in to the police and starts uncontrollably sobbing like some cringe soy boy and confessing to everything he has done and becomes a man who completely gives up his pride and arrogance, which are the two things that have been his natural inclinations since childhood and everything we know about him in Bre Ba. This is basically how it feels hearing about Shiki in FG except, it's even worse since Shiki's very origin aka her conceptual foundation which cannot be overcome once it is awakened (Which Ryougi's was at birth at that mind you) is Nihilism and she ardently wishes the death of all of creation and this is where her murderous impulses come from etc.
Souske Aizen, the main villain of Bleach as a whole, is a man who, like Walter, is a prideful, egomaniacal, selfish, brutal, as well as misanthropic, extremely individualistic, and ax-crazy nihilistic psychopath who laughs like the Joker from DC and wears all white, as well as going on about how morals, etc. are all social constructs that hold your power back, etc., and is also a man who believes in nothing but himself and arrogantly declared he was going to "dethrone that thing," aka the soul king, and stand on top of heaven and earth as the one ruler of all. Imagine if he suddenly, while coming up with an evil plan, decided to turn himself in to the soul society and suddenly went in the opposite direction of his true self and had no real explanation or anything behind it, and it's the same established character. Your reaction would be extremely jarred and annoyed as the character that has been consistently established as one thing now suddenly changes ways and started crying about how he is wrong and how he'll make it up to them etc. Both Aizen and Shiki fundamentally hate anyone due to their established natures and would never ever resort to believing in the "things of lower and dumber beings"
And to further prove the point, FG is actually shown to be in Case Files, which is part of the current Type-Moon canon and takes place in Fate Worlds. While the original KnK takes place in the original Tsukihime Worlds, as evident by the fact Ryougi is in Melty Blood and many other sources. The original KnK, which very clearly takes place in Tsukihime Worlds, has no relation to FG, which is depicted as being part of Fate Worlds.
No seriously, just take a deep look at Shiki's own character development and the suffering she had to endure: Born as an anomaly that the World itself wanted to erase, Shiki's very existence was difficult. Her family, driven by their ambition, intervened and brought her into existence as an "empty vessel" meant to embody their ultimate legacy. It's hard not to question if they ever genuinely loved her. Throughout the novel, Shiki refers to them with a cold formality and their interactions are steeped in the air of aristocratic detachment.From the start, Shiki’s life was devoid of genuine affection. She was raised to be a successor, not as a daughter. The only semblance of love she received came from SHIKI, the other self inside her. While SHIKI’s love was profound and unparalleled, it was also a double-edged sword. It made Shiki acutely aware of how incapable humans were of such unconditional love, further alienating her from them. The murderous impulses she believed came from SHIKI only deepened her isolation. To her, the only person who cared for her was also a source of great danger, making her fear that any semblance of normalcy or connection would eventually be tainted by violence. These impulses made her see humanity as inherently flawed and distasteful. She hated the idea of being a slave to these primal urges, which she thought would make her even worse than the humans she despised.Adding to her misery was her grandfather’s doctrine, which instilled in her a bleak outlook: kill, and you’ll end up alone and despised. Which only made Shiki feel even more doomed. Shiki spent her life training to become something she didn't care about, surrounded by people she saw as unworthy of her time. The one bright spot in her life was SHIKI, but even that was overshadowed by the inevitable reality that her moments of happiness were fleeting and doomed to end in isolation.
Then came Mikiya, a symbol of stability and normalcy that seemed almost miraculous to Shiki. For a while, he represented everything she had ever dreamed of—someone who made her emptiness feel meaningful. But Mikiya's presence also disrupted the uneasy balance with SHIKI. Shiki knew that eventually, she would lose control and that SHIKI would destroy Mikiya, which led her to distance herself from him, believing it would be less cruel to be away from something beautiful that she couldn’t protect. Resigned to her fate, Shiki found Mikiya’s unwavering faith in her both crushing and oddly hopeful. His belief, despite everything, was like a cruel joke, offering a fleeting illusion of a dream she thought was forever out of reach.As her emotional state deteriorated, Shiki contemplated ending Mikiya's life herself to protect him from the destruction she feared would come from SHIKI. But the unexpected intervention by Araya Souren, who saved Mikiya, gave Shiki a brief moment of clarity. Unable to reconcile her own feelings and her failure to protect Mikiya, Shiki resolved that if she couldn’t make him disappear, her only remaining choice was to end her own life. This resolution triggered a series of events that left her in a coma for two years, drifting in Akasha—a desolate void where she was left to confront nothingness and death. Waking up to find SHIKI gone—the one being who had truly loved her—was devastating. On top of that, her memories were fragmented, and the Shiki Ryougi she remembered felt like a distant stranger. The void within her only grew deeper, and the discovery of her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception revealed a world teetering on the brink of oblivion. They showed her that the Death she experienced those 2 years was actually always around the corner, and that all things are but one step away from fading away. This insight was overwhelming, pushing her to the brink of destroying her own eyes in a desperate attempt to escape her existential dread.
Yet, even in her darkest moments, Mikiya’s unwavering presence was a beacon of consistency. As she struggled with her lingering impulses and her identity, she found solace in Mikiya's constancy and the reminder from Touko that SHIKI had died for a reason—to give her a chance to fulfill their dream. Driven by this realisation, Shiki chose to honor SHIKI’s memory by trying to make something meaningful out of her life and build an identity of her own free from the torments of the past, even as she feared her own impulses would ultimately ruin everything. The hug with Mikiya at the end of Shiki’s journey is profoundly powerful, perhaps the first real embrace she’s ever known. It symbolizes not just the end of her trials but the fulfillment of a dream that had seemed forever out of reach. The ending of Kara no Kyoukai is a testament to Shiki’s endurance and her deserving of the love and happiness she ultimately finds.
And yet I'm supposed to believe that Ryougi would suddenly return to her family, whom she had little regard for, and comply with their expectations? It's even harder to believe that she would then succumb to typical human instincts (When her entire story is fighting these urges or instincts mind you. With those common in humans being one of the reasons she hates people) and decide to have a daughter. Given Shiki’s and Mikiya’s natures—both of which seem to reject such conventional desires—this development feels out of character.Shiki is deeply aware of humanity’s flaws and her own fundamental differences from them. Her primary attachment is to Mikiya, who represents the only source of meaning and connection in her life. So why would she bring a child into the world, knowing that this new life might inherit the very traits she despises? The prospect of their daughter potentially suffering a grim fate or growing up to cause suffering herself is also troubling, especially considering the likelihood of her inheriting the Ryougi family’s dual personality trait. This could mean she’d end up as conflicted and miserable as Shiki’s grandfather, unable to balance her darker impulses without the Origin of Nothingness that Shiki herself possesses.
It’s also baffling to consider that Shiki and Mikiya would genuinely desire a child, given that this goes against both their worldviews and personal natures. Shiki, who harbors a deep-seated disdain for the world and its dangers, would be knowingly subjecting a new life to the same suffering she endured. This child could either become a source of suffering for others or fall victim to a tragic fate, mirroring the pain Shiki herself experienced.
The "secret desire for happiness" in her context refers to her underlying wish to experience a sense of normalcy and human connection, despite her cold demeanor and detachment from society. This "happiness" is likely linked to a simpler, more human sense of contentment, such as love and companionship, something she eventually begins to experience with Mikiya. While she rejects many aspects of human life, her bond with Mikiya brings her closer to experiencing a type of happiness she never thought possible, even if it remains subtle and quiet rather than overtly expressed. This desire is not about conforming to society's expectations but rather a personal yearning for a peace she lacks due to her existential struggles. Hell, the very quote you sent literally states right before that she hates mankind. Leaving out of context as usual, lmao. As I have sent the full quote below and take a read for yourself.
Not only that, but the same quote says that the materialization of that dream was Mikiya himself, with Mikiya's normalcy actually veering into abnormally territory for ordinary people, making him an outlier like Shiki. Void goes on and on about how Mikiya is special compared to every other human. And other sources even describes him as the "embodiment of ordinary peaceful days", with Ryougi stating that all she needed were the dream-like days she spent with him while she thought Lio killed him and was mourning his loss. She didn't cry because "I didn't get to have some family!" but about her losing the chance of living with the one person that connected with her and embodied the sense of peace and tranquility she desired (And Mana absolutely destroyed said tranquility FYI, as she is a degenerate trying to win against Shiki to have her father "for herself" like Azaka, on top of the general disruptions that parenting would bring such as being a money drain as well as on top of that, Mana potentially making Ryougi's life hell and also any bad fate she could suffer in the world etc). Don't you ever....Get tired of spouting fanfiction on a series you know nothing about? Genuine question. Your username seems to reflect your broken views aimed at wanking Arcu-I-died-to-base-Ryougi-eid.
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Shiki secretly wants to go through normal life experiences. Having a child is one of those life experiences.
She will also try things she hates because of a petty desire to “conquer her weakness”
Strawberry Ice-cream [Others]
One of the few things that Shiki was fond of, also one of the things she hated.
Even though she despised cold food, she always seemed to buy it from the convenience store.
Regarding this, Mikiya made some amazingly insensitive comments such as ".... are you... are you trying to conquer your weakness...?"
Is this hyperzero? lol
Base ryougi, the entity that is “barely” above a normal girl in durability and attack power, and her best combat speed feat is 3m/s, and keeping up with a guy who dodges bullets, can kill the ultimate one of earth, the position you get BECAUSE you’re the strongest existence on the Earth. Sure. Arcueid cut up tohno into 18 pieces and you think ryougi can do better because of the game where everyone’s standing is explicitly buffed or nerfed so that everyone can beat everyone…because that’s how fighting games work. Even Asagami fujino is directly stated to have more capability than her. Ryougi got overpowered by AZAKA.
azaka is the true ultimate one, thank you for enlightening me to this truth.
Also, ryougi doesn’t hate Azaka. It’s actually the exact opposite. And even if she hates someone, if she puts them in the category of “can be with”, she’ll tolerate them,no matter what.
Regardless of good or evil, Shiki first divided people into "those she can be with" and "those she cannot be with".
For those "she can be with", she would stay with them even if she hated them. Touko was "dislike", Azaka was "like", such were the categories.
As to Mikiya, in the words of Shiki, "I don't know".
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Archetype Earth: “is there none that can stand up to me? This pitiful resistance… your swords are but blades of grass upon my bare feet. Trifling.”
Artoria, on one knee holds herself up… an eye closed and bleeding, she coughs. Gilgamesh was already disappearing, Aoko was dipping in and out of consciousness. “Damn… is this how it ends?”
Ritsuka mutters to themselves. All of chaldea’s weapons, an army of heroic spirits and help from the Church and the mages association, nothing could stop the Ultimate One.“Allow me.”
Suddenly, through the dust and smoke, a tall dark figure emerges.
The Archetype shrinks back slightly…. “And you are?”
“Araya.”
Artoria, on one knee holds herself up… an eye closed and bleeding, she coughs. Gilgamesh was already disappearing, Aoko was dipping in and out of consciousness. “Damn… is this how it ends?”
Ritsuka mutters to themselves. All of chaldea’s weapons, an army of heroic spirits and help from the Church and the mages association, nothing could stop the Ultimate One.“Allow me.”
Suddenly, through the dust and smoke, a tall dark figure emerges.
The Archetype shrinks back slightly…. “And you are?”
“Araya.”
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All of these are strawmans that have been addressed billions of times, and you did not even read my arguments and are quoting fanfiction BS like TM Wiki, which spreads humanist propaganda and tries to morph older series that despised humanity like KNK and Tsukihime (2000) into fitting this crappy humanist agenda. Also, I am not HyperZero and I do not know anything of this user you speak of. Nice try on trying to bait me, and even from what I have seen, Hyper on this wiki doesn't know jack about Breaking Bad or Bleach, and yet I do, and you didn't even attempt to refute my Aizen or Walt example, further proof you are dishonest and foolish. Besides, you believe that Ryougi Shiki an Ax-crazy Nihilistic killer and distant and unapprochable to anyone but Mikiya would suddenly want a child despite hating humans and everything they stand for again and again (and please don't quote the modern canon).
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I’m quoting the KNK special pamphlet. If you knew as much about KNK as you said you did, you would recognize that, at least.
Azaka is the true ultimate one.
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The tried and true tactic of “this has been addressed already”, as a substitute for proper argumentation and refutation
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No seriously, you got crushed by Hyper so badly you cried like in my Walt scenario that's pathetic dude. Anyways, sya kid do not want to hear from your clown group anymore.
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Do y'all think Shirou likes doritos? (serious question)
KingNanaya
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They're sword enough (they cut my throat when I swallow the corner), so probably
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swordritos...
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probably, he's a ********* and has questionable tastes in everything he does. (Unlike other tm protags)
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erm actually, doritos are the greatest thing ever, so eating them makes you a gigachad
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Is Shirou as Chad as Aizen or Walter White? no
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If Shirous birth origin could be completely overwritten and changed from an Avalon that’s not even active, then origins aren’t the irresistible force you think they are.
Anyway it’s his own fault he got permanently banned, if he could have kept his ego in check this wouldn’t have happened, he was initially just going to be left off with a warning.
Maximum glazing technique (hyper zero actually quit before I reported him,btw.)
Anyway it’s his own fault he got permanently banned, if he could have kept his ego in check this wouldn’t have happened, he was initially just going to be left off with a warning.
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Aizen and Walter get solo'd by cool ranchIs Shirou as Chad as Aizen or Walter White? nogeneric high school harem protag vs two crazy sociopathic conniving leaders who died/got imprisoned on their own terms
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Gilgamesh and Shirou probably fight about if cool ranch or nacho cheese is better
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Archer: "It does not matter, Spicy Nacho clears both!"
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Reinhard Heydrich from Dies Irae would never,the true chad villainAizen and Walter get solo'd by cool ranch
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Shirou comes from a h novel he loses to Walt and AizenAizen and Walter get solo'd by cool ranch
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reinhard comes from a gross h novel that makes FSN HF look tame by comparison.
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sounds b-b-b-based
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Meh still has enough good plot
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does he know about Tsukihime and Kagetsu tohya?
also, the h stuff has been cut out of dies irae, for over a decade at this point.
