Avalon Scaling Fix

[Leandro]

Then it’s very simple. The soul of the planet isn’t what was killed. Especially since Gaia could still send orders to the ultimate ones afterwards.
Avalon is also again, noted to be free from all the laws of the world (including the one that makes parallel worlds)

I think you didn’t understand me

 

[GarrixianXD]

My flight was delayed 3 hours and its currently late as shit for me. I've visited this thread before and read it a few times, I could find myself giving merit to the topic, but I'll give a concise definite evaluation tomorrow, right now I gotta sleep soon.

 

[Firestorm808]

Recap Episode! because I was too lazy to check case files, and thus a 80+ post argument began.

So, what are the big points of this thread?

Avalon’s rating itself is not being contested, but what is being contested is the idea of anything scaling to it.

• Merlin describes Avalon as a separate, isolated world unaffected by any external events occurring in the World
• The realm is described as being "shielded from the prayers of the outside world", and is entirely seperate and isolated from the world and it’s its laws and concepts.
• It is responsible for creating all parallel worlds in nasu, and is superior to the parallel world system.
• Arcueid says that ever since the Earth’s creation, nothing in existence has been strong enough to destroy it,referencing Avalon’s unbreakable nature
• Quotes from various Nasuverse texts emphasize Avalon's isolation, and how it is a “defense” that absolutely cannot be breached.
• The realm can protect its owner from "all interference".
• Everything in the multiverse/that is bound by the parallel world/pruning system is 4D, due to being affected by it’s manipulation of entropy.
  
  
• Entropy only exists within 3D space in nasu,which is supported by this quote:

Imaginary number space is explicitly described as 4 dimensional in series.

Entropy is described as the result of the flow of time in the nasuverse, and is the foundation of the parallel world/pruning system, as mentioned above.

• Everything above the 4th Dimension in nasu is also noted to be unaffected and separated from this parallel world system, like the throne of heroes, and Avalon.
• Since everything inside the multiverse has a 4D existence, they do not have the needed dimensionality to breach Avalon. This includes realms like the Moon Cell,as not only is it affected by the parallel world system, its core can be accessed through imaginary number space,which is 4D

From what I'm seeing, if something cannot affect Avalon, it shouldn't scale to Avalon.

Am I missing something here?

 

[Violatas]

From what I'm seeing, if something cannot affect Avalon, it shouldn't scale to Avalon.

Am I missing something here?

That's correct.
There hasn't been a counter to it either over this thread so far (which yeah nothing should scale to Avalon. Idk how that was accepted for so long)

 

[Wankbreaker]

From what I'm seeing, if something cannot affect Avalon, it shouldn't scale to Avalon.

Am I missing something here?

Yea, that’s the basic idea. That and destroying the world does not equal the destruction of Avalon, especially when it’s noted to be isolated and superior to it.

 

[Violatas]

Bump

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Reading these threads is always smth, anyways. From what I'm seeing OP has still not made a good enough argument to all the other staff mentioning the difference between temporal & spatial dimensions. It also seems from the get go that you just wanna downgrade the verse atp, your argument is also incredibly contradicting. You say you think Avalon's 6D scaling shouldn't exist (but can't offer any actual concise evidence for that not being the case) and yet you're simultaneously using it as an argument for why everything else in the verse caps at 4D? Where exactly are you tryna go with this? Also considering Avalon was created by the planet, it would literally make no sense for it to be so vastly superior to something that literally created it. Especially with how magic works in the nasuverse, just doesn't seem plausible. That's my 2 cents, correct me if I'm wrong ofc

 

[Violatas]

Also considering Avalon was created by the planet, it would literally make no sense for it to be so vastly superior to something that literally created it. Especially with how magic works in the nasuverse, just doesn't seem plausible. That's my 2 cents, correct me if I'm wrong ofc

I would think the True Magics outright being stated to also getting negged by Avalon is huge. Easiest way to put this into perspective is how Zelretch can erase entire timelines as shown in Strange Fake, and yet the 2nd Magic still can't effect Avalon. Ergo, any "world destroying" statements is not only smaller scale but generally by people with abilities ranked below True Magic and lower scaling than Zelretch himself. Point is that Avalon is blatantly a very unique realm in of itself.

The dimensional aspect I don't care much for really, just the Avalon scaling.

 

[Wankbreaker]

your argument is also incredibly contradicting.

“Incredibly contradicting” is when I point out that the inner sea of the planet being superior and isolated from the world means that destroying the “world” does not mean destroying the inner sea of the planet.

type-moon scalers. gotta love em.

You say you think Avalon's 6D scaling shouldn't exist (but can't offer any actual concise evidence for that not being the case)

you refusing to accept it does not equal that it doesn’t exist.

and yet you're simultaneously using it as an argument for why everything else in the verse caps at 4D? Where exactly are you tryna go with this?

Also considering Avalon was created by the planet, it would literally make no sense for it to be so vastly superior to something that literally created it.

funny how this is essentially the exact argument I made about how Avalon literally creates all the parallel worlds, so it does not make sense for anything bound to it to be superior to Avalon.

Regardless, you have a clear misunderstanding of how the planet works in Nasu if you think that the deepest part of the planet is bound to any particular timeline or texture

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I would think the True Magics outright being stated to also getting negged by Avalon is huge. Easiest way to put this into perspective is how Zelretch can erase entire timelines as shown in Strange Fake, and yet the 2nd Magic still can't effect Avalon. Ergo, any "world destroying" statements is not only smaller scale but generally by people with abilities ranked below True Magic and lower scaling than Zelretch himself. Point is that Avalon is blatantly a very unique realm in of itself.

The dimensional aspect I don't care much for really, just the Avalon scaling.

That's fair, but OP still has not addressed the issue with the staff mentioning how temporal & spatial timelines work which is relevant to the main point of the thread

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

“Incredibly contradicting” is when I point out that the inner sea of the planet being superior and isolated from the world means that destroying the “world” does not mean destroying the inner sea of the planet.

type-moon scalers. gotta love em.

Breh, I'm not even a type-moon scaler lmao.

you refusing to accept it does not equal that it doesn’t exist.

Me refusing to accept what? You literally said yourself that there wasn't any other evidence

Regardless, you have a clear misunderstanding of how the planet works in Nasu if you think that the deepest part of the planet is bound to any particular timeline or texture

I also do not believe this

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I do too but lack of evidence, gotta attack from another angle

???

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Maybe you derailed so much that you might've forgotten, but those were literally your words breh

 

[Wankbreaker]

Breh, I'm not even a type-moon scaler lmao.

Me refusing to accept what? You literally said yourself that there wasn't any other evidence

referencing a topic that was completely unrelated to this thread. Avalon itself is not being touched, just the idea of anything actually scaling to it.

That's fair, but OP still has not addressed the issue with the staff mentioning how temporal & spatial timelines work which is relevant to the main point of the thread

I have, you just haven’t read it.

It’s noted how the flow of time/entropy does not exist in INS (which allows for the growth of parallel worlds), and the fact that every higher dimensional realm/existence past a certain point is noted to be beyond the parallel world system/universe

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

referencing a topic that was completely unrelated to this thread. Avalon itself is not being touched, just the idea of anything actually scaling to it.

I see, well alright then I mean looking at the previous posts is sure doesn't seem that way but I'll take your word for it

I have, you just haven’t read it.

It’s noted how the flow of time/entropy does not exist in INS (which allows for the growth of parallel worlds), and the fact that every higher dimensional realm/existence is noted to be beyond the parallel world system/universe

I have read it, multiple staff already mentioned that your viewpoint of dimensionality is incorrect, since then you have not made any better arguments, you're just repeating what's already been denoted as being invalid.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Also it's been mentioned by Violatas, there has not been any counter to anything being above Avalon in the thread (based off what's been said) so I don't even understand what exactly the thread is about atp

 

[Wankbreaker]

I have read it, multiple staff already mentioned that your viewpoint of dimensionality is incorrect,

one thing (which I already addressed as in fact being the case afterwards with additional scans) being “invalid” does not mean the rest of it is. Main opposition was arguing that the flow of time can exist beyond the main universe, I proved otherwise. Your fallback should not be on that

Also, you ignored Garrixian finding merit in my points,but whatever.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

one thing (which I already addressed as in fact being the case afterwards with additional scans) being “invalid” does not mean the rest of it is. Main opposition was arguing that the flow of time can exist beyond the main universe, I proved otherwise. Your fallback should not be on that

Also, you ignored Garrixian finding merit in my points,but whatever.

Yeah I ignored Garrixian finding merit in your points, the disagree to agree ratio is abysmal rn. I'm watching the thread, currently am neutral but leaning towards disagree. I'll wait until more people comment and drop their arguments

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Even though the threads alr long ash but whatever

 

[Wankbreaker]

Yeah I ignored Garrixian finding merit in your points, the disagree to agree ratio is abysmal rn.

no voting staff even made a evaluation yet,but alright.

Even though the threads alr long ash but whatever

yall should never ask me again why I prefer to keep these restricted

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

yall should never ask me again why I prefer to keep these restricted

Fair enough

 

[TheSilverKing14]

What are the votes? whos for and against it no fluff?

 

[Wankbreaker]

What are the votes? whos for and against it no fluff?

Out of the people with rights?

Only Garrixian really said anything evaluation wise, he seems to be leaning towards approval

 

[Firestorm808]

How many profiles are scaled from Avalon at the moment? Can you link an example?

 

[Wankbreaker]

How many profiles are scaled from Avalon at the moment? Can you link an example?

All of the tier 1 profiles use this as a foundation. From what I heard from older members, it’s also the only reason why the mooncell stuff isn’t considered an outlier.

 

[Violatas]

Bumping

 

[BreezeHM]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't they still end up scaling to Avalon? Because Sefar invaded the Earth, killed a bunch of gods, and burnt almost the entirety of the planet's surface. The Fairies had to forge Excalibur in the Inner Sea of the Planet to defeat her. I believe being forged in the Inner Sea doesn't exactly mean that it's potency is equivalent to it but we do have this;

『Excalibur』
Rank: A++
NP Type: Anti-Fortress
Sword of Promised Victory.
A weapon not forged by man, but a Divine Construct forged within the Planet.
The Noble Phantasm that is greatest of all sacred swords.
The true power of the sword lies within its sheath, which is said to be lost forever.

So Excalibur's true power lies within it's sheath (Avalon). But what if Excalibur can unleash that true power depending on the circumstance?

Noble Phantasm:

Excalibur
Sword of Promised Victory



Rank: A++
Type: Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm
Range: 1~99
Maximum number of targets: 1000 people


Excalibur.
A sword of light. It is not a man-made weapon, but a Divine Construct forged by the planet. Although managed by the hands of fairies, the mage Merlin entrusted it to king Arthur as an intermediary.
A Noble Phantasm that stands at the top in the category of holy swords.
A holy sword that, by summoning the owner’s mana as “light”, increases momentum by means of convergence/acceleration, and makes possible to exert magical power on the level of a Divine Spirit.
That huge magic power gives heat not only by the tip, and as a result is taken as a wave of light that scratches the ground. It could be also said to be a directional energy weapon.
It is said that this sword that was birthed (forged) in the inner sea of the planet, only exerts its true power only with the appearance of a foreign enemy that threatens the planet.

In the above, it shows that Excalibur's true power is exerted when facing an enemy can threaten the planet. And there's many characters that can threaten the planet. Although I do have a problem with my own argument here. That is Excalibur's true power that lies within Avalon. It could just be referring that Avalon is the "true power" because of its defensive properties, meaning that the "True Power" that Excalibur unleashes when facing an enemy that can threaten the planet, is not the same "true power."

However, considering that Avalon and Excalibur were forged at the same time in the Inner Sea of the Planet, and Excalibur was used to defeat Sefar, I believe Excalibur scaling to Avalon when facing an enemy that threatens the planet is warranted.

 

[Cautiousexedius]

I would think the True Magics outright being stated to also getting negged by Avalon is huge. Easiest way to put this into perspective is how Zelretch can erase entire timelines as shown in Strange Fake, and yet the 2nd Magic still can't effect Avalon. Ergo, any "world destroying" statements is not only smaller scale but generally by people with abilities ranked below True Magic and lower scaling than Zelretch himself. Point is that Avalon is blatantly a very unique realm in of itself.

The dimensional aspect I don't care much for really, just the Avalon scaling.

*Avalon
Rank: EX
Type: Bound Field
Maximum Targets: 1 Person
The sheath of Excalibur, a Noble Phantasm with its origin in the Fairyland Avalon where King Arthur rests. The wielder will heal from any wound, and the aging process will cease. Unleashing the true name of Avalon will deploy a Bound Field that provides the greatest defence. A Noble Phantasm that annuls the interference of True Magic; its existence is equivalent to True Magic.*

Avalon is obviously not beyond true magic, it just nullifies true magic in so far as it being an existence equivalent to True Magic. The interference of 2nd magic, is nullified specifically when applied to parallel worlds, which doesn't indicate superiority over every general application of 2nd magic.

It's a categorical error anyways, to suggest it's beyond true magic, when it's true magic itself or an equivalent of such.

So, it can be said definitely, that anything affected by the pruning system is 4D at max, and thus, could not affect Avalon. The pruning system even affects the Moon Cell, as well, as it is affected by timeline changes.

Is there any reason to believe pruning system is 4-dimensional?

Also, just to be clear, no, physically speaking avalon is not 'impossible' to destroy, however seeing as the planet defends it, as a reality marble of the planet itself, it makes it effectively impossible to destroy.

https://gyazo.com/2758e6ba72a0e90d130811bafa305322But outside of that, we've seen characters capable of nuking it, ORT in lostbelt 7, was gonna destroy the planet, not the planet of some timeline, no, him destroying chaldeas, creates a chain of events that lead to the destruction of pan-human history; thus every parallel world.

After that, ORT proceeds to spin its webs on the celestial body and end it, this doesn't say 'world' which bears more ambiguity and can just reference the parallel worlds, no, it explicitly says ORT will destroy the planet.

It's renowned as a planet eater anyways, this shouldn't be controversial

Back Alley Satsuki proves that the MEODP can’t exactly do that either. Ryougi is able to hit Ries’s lines of death through her shield-barrier thing. But when Ryougi tries hitting Artoria’s lines of death, it doesn’t work.

Lmao, what are we saying, Arcueid, you know the brain of the planet, is the one who says 'everything has a fated end'.
https://gyazo.com/9c502c4248774f4724866a2415c3bdachttps://gyazo.com/4aa76013aa925f5d41a552b401e7431e
when having a conversation with dust of osiris, who notes that if humanity were to prosper, she'd be the first to disappear because she's the brain of the planet and the celestial body will reach its end, when the age of will arrives and she doesn't even dispute this, she just says that's a conclusion (because destruction is the natural order of things).

It's just exceptionally difficult to see them, but the lines of death exist for the planet; seeing as how hard it was for tohno to destroy a building in the Arcueid route.

Without frying his blood vessels a tadbit. The fated end of the planet, is the entire point of the servantverse.

——————“Oh, what to say, I wonder really ... the Age of Gods is long past, and with what is soon to unfold, so too will the Age of the Fae end. It is the Age of Man - and that too will reach its eventual conclusion sooner or later. The day will come when this star of ours ceases to rotate, after which we will establish ourselves in the heavens, beginning the Age of the Will. Those incapable of volition without a frame of flesh and blood will be left behind in time. And yet... I wonder why I find myself so obsessed with humans.”

This is referenced by merlin in garden of avalon too.

 

[Cautiousexedius]

Entropy (the flow of time), is only noted to exist within 3-Dimensional space. Nothing more.

*"Like entropy in three-dimensional space, it should be easy to understand that time also has a kind of vector."

The flow of time. Entropy.

Like an hourglass, moment by moment, the future becomes the present, and the present becomes the past. No one can stop it—this one-way journey determined by the universe that cannot be halted.*

It says like entropy in a 3-dimensional space, emphasis on 'like', it's not even saying all possibilities are 3-dimensional, it explicitly says you can compare it to entropy in a 3-dimensional space, not that, the possibilities of human order are 3-dimensional.

The entire passage, was just providing an analysis of the parallel worlds of human order, by giving an example of how the idea works in 3-dimensions, which is obviously more convenient than just postulating that idea in higher-dimensions, for simplicity sake.

 

[Wankbreaker]

However, considering that Avalon and Excalibur were forged at the same time in the Inner Sea of the Planet, and Excalibur was used to defeat Sefar, I believe Excalibur scaling to Avalon when facing an enemy that threatens the planet is warranted.

Uhh…. this is like saying all magecraft is outerversal because it comes from the root

 

[BreezeHM]

Uhh…. this is like saying all magecraft is outerversal because it comes from the root

On its own this logic doesn't really hold up. Avalon works by deploying a bounded field of Avalon around the space of the caster to separate its inside from the outside, cutting off and isolating that space from the outside world. Bounded Fields are woven of magical energy, that's where my previous argument comes in.

Although I think OP makes good points, we saw in LB6 what happened if Sefar wasn't defeated and it only ended up with the entire surface being destroyed leaving nothing but ocean. I'll be neutral for now.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Avalon is obviously not beyond true magic, it just nullifies true magic in so far as it being an existence equivalent to True Magic. The interference of 2nd magic, is nullified specifically when applied to parallel worlds, which doesn't indicate superiority over every general application of 2nd magic.

Also… that’s just blatantly wrong, I sent a scan in this thread saying otherwise

It's a categorical error anyways, to suggest it's beyond true magic, when it's true magic itself or an equivalent of such.

So, it can be said definitely, that anything affected by the pruning system is 4D at max, and thus, could not affect Avalon. The pruning system even affects the Moon Cell, as well, as it is affected by timeline changes.

Is there any reason to believe pruning system is 4-dimensional?

Also, just to be clear, no, physically speaking avalon is not 'impossible' to destroy, however seeing as the planet defends it, as a reality marble of the planet itself, it makes it effectively impossible to destroy.

https://gyazo.com/2758e6ba72a0e90d130811bafa305322But outside of that, we've seen characters capable of nuking it, ORT in lostbelt 7, was gonna destroy the planet, not the planet of some timeline, no, him destroying chaldeas, creates a chain of events that lead to the destruction of pan-human history; thus every parallel world.

Talking about how ORT blows up the physical planet does not debunk the argument that blowing up the “planet” doesn’t equal the destruction of Avalon,but I’ll bite anyway.

Goetia burned up human history, yet we know it only happened in the FGO timeline.

「2015年の時計塔」は月姫、魔法使いの夜よりの世界です。
あの世界では「現代を守ために●●」した人物がいるため、FGOは発生しません。
その成果を誰も知ることはなかったけど、彼は過去も未来も守ったわけである。

After that, ORT proceeds to spin its webs on the celestial body and end it, this doesn't say 'world' which bears more ambiguity and can just reference the parallel worlds, no, it explicitly says ORT will destroy the planet.

It's renowned as a planet eater anyways, this shouldn't be controversial



Lmao, what are we saying, Arcueid, you know the brain of the planet, is the one who says 'everything has a fated end'.

Arcueid also says nothing in existence can destroy the entire planet, but you seem the be ignoring that.

snip

The rest is irrelevant, considering we actually see this happen:

 

[Wankbreaker]

*"Like entropy in three-dimensional space, it should be easy to understand that time also has a kind of vector."

The flow of time. Entropy.

Like an hourglass, moment by moment, the future becomes the present, and the present becomes the past. No one can stop it—this one-way journey determined by the universe that cannot be halted.*

It says like entropy in a 3-dimensional space, emphasis on 'like', it's not even saying all possibilities are 3-dimensional, it explicitly says you can compare it to entropy in a 3-dimensional space, not that, the possibilities of human order are 3-dimensional.

The entire passage, was just providing an analysis of the parallel worlds of human order, by giving an example of how the idea works in 3-dimensions, which is obviously more convenient than just postulating that idea in higher-dimensions, for simplicity sake.

All good and all but…. The concept doesn’t exist in 4 dimensional INS.

Trisha's elemental affinity was for Imaginary Numbers, she remembered. Imaginary Numbers space, where "nothingness" existed as an actual thing, was something like a dimensional pocket, a place where objects would be freed from interaction with the flow of space and time.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I honestly share the same thoughts as Breeze here.

 

[Wankbreaker]

On its own this logic doesn't really hold up. Avalon works by deploying a bounded field of Avalon around the space of the caster to separate its inside from the outside, cutting off and isolating that space from the outside world. Bounded Fields are woven of magical energy, that's where my previous argument comes in.

It doesn’t create the space, it just transports the user there.

The power of the sheath of Excalibur. Expanding the sheath, it shuts out all physical interference by placing the owner in the land of the fairies.

The functions of avalon and Excalibur are completely different. It makes 0 sense to equalize them

 

[BreezeHM]

It doesn’t create the space, it just transports the user there.

The power of the sheath of Excalibur. Expanding the sheath, it shuts out all physical interference by placing the owner in the land of the fairies.

Yeah by deploying the bounded field, it's not teleporting the user. It's literally classified as a Barrier Type Noble Phantasm and defensive magic. Can't call Teleportation defensive.

Ever-Distant Utopia -- Avalon
Rank: EX
Type: Bounded Field Noble Phantasm
Maximum Targets: 1 person


The sheath of Excalibur, a Noble Phantasm derived from Avalon, the land of fairies, where King Arthur rests. The wielder will heal from any wound, and the aging process will cease. Invoking the true name of Avalon will deploy a bounded field that provides the greatest defense. As Noble Phantasm that annuls the interference of Sorcery, its existence is equivalent to Sorcery.
In legend, the loss of this sheath cast an ominous pall over the life of King Arthur, eventually cascading into the collapse of the kingdom. In modern times, the Einzberns excavated Avalon at Cornwall and passed it into the hands of Emiya Kiritsugu. Afterward, it was implanted into the body of Emiya Shirou to save his life, eventually becoming the link that led to his bond with Artoria. In the Fate route, Artoria would learn that Shirou was her "sheath," and the duo would emerge victorious in the Holy Grail War.

The functions of avalon and Excalibur are completely different. It makes 0 sense to equalize them

Avalon for defensive, Excalibur for offensive, makes perfect sense to me. We can also equalize them since they were created at the same time. In LB6 we saw that Altira's Spirit Origin was going to be used to forge Excalibur, before Muramasa took over. Altira's Spirit Origin can forge Excalibur alongside Avalon that can deploy the bounded Field of Avalon.

 

[Firestorm808]

To reiterate, what on record has affected Avalon?

 

[BreezeHM]

To reiterate, what on record has affected Avalon?

Nothing has ever affected Avalon to my knowledge.

 

[Firestorm808]

Okay. Is there any direct implication that something would affect Avalon like the outer gods or something?

 

[Wankbreaker]

Okay. Is there any direct implication that something would affect Avalon like the outer gods or something?

No,absolutely none.