Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Has really no one made a new Nasuverse discussion thread yet? Ok then this'll do I guess

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Nice.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

M'Kay

 

[Ionliosite]

I honestly can't tell if Mecha Eli-chan's event is meant to be one those comical ones (like GUDAGUDA) or of the serious ones (like Kogetsukan).

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I mean even GUDAGUDA after 3 started mixing serious with comedy.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Have we decided what we're doing for Base Servant Stats, we suggested backscaling to Baseline High 6-C at some point right?

 

[Ionliosite]

I still think that if people insist in backscaling Gawain to Lion King, it should be as a "likely", because I still adhere to the ideas that a) Servants are far more consistently Tier 7 via their own feats (that don't involve NP of course) and that b) we shouldn't solely scale all Servants based on a Divine Spirit, who are stronger than Servants by default.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@Ionliosite I agree completely

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The second point is rather pointless though, when the value that is used to scale off of the Lion King is lower than her own highest feat and the power of other stuff she has blocked or matched.

An equivalent would be saying you can't scale to non-Serious Saitama because Serious Saitama is so much higher in power than the character.

 

[Ionliosite]

No one should scale in any way, shape or form to Saitama anyway, since he's literally in one-shot range of the entire verse.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I mean that's just dodging the argument lol. There may be problems with the calc itself tho. I've been feat hunting a bit justin case.

 

[Ionliosite]

How is answering to his example "dodging the argument"?

 

[ÆONS]

Holy shit new thread time.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Nicu.

I finished the basics of Caren Hortensia's profile in my sandbox, since it was the only one missing in the Stay/Night page.
Render required manual clean up of a gradient background but it should be serviceable. There were weird scenes in hollow ataraxia like her being unkillable by Medusa and being able to talk even though she is thoroughly mutilated, and being able to summon and dismiss a giant Pipe Organ, though they are glitches in the matrix I guess.

Can someone calc this feat or provide suggestions on how to calc it?

This is a crater follow by a long canyon created by the Tier 6 golden boy, Gawain, in Last Encore. What makes this even more interesting is that Gawain's NP's blade extends to 13 km.

Also, I am planning some massive upgrades to Bazett (Fragrach's description and tier is also all wrong) and Zouken. Kirei is missing a bunch of abilities since he is proficient in various schools of Magecraft per Fate/Zero, and the madlad Gilles is missing some as well.

I also ran into extra MHS-MHS+ speed feats we can use as supporting evidence.

Probably not worth much, but a feat for bottom of the barrel Servants is that the Fate/Zero narration says that a 5.56mm Remington doesn't have enough power to damage Hundred Face Hassan (after he is divided into 80 bodies).

We should add Fate/strange Fake verse page (the "Fake" should be capitalized as well to be in-line with the official stylization) to the main Nasuverse page, and make a verse page for the type Redline manga; the profiles for the later are already done since they debutted in FGO so it shouldn't take too much work.

By the way, is there a format for Nasuverse terminology? Like should we use "Rank-A" or "A Rank"? Should we capitalize technical terms like "magus" and "prana"?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

How is answering to his example "dodging the argument"?

Completely disregarding the concept of "context" and just saying you can't in any way, shape, or form sure sounds like applying non-existent standards to me, not sure about dodging though.

Scaling to a fraction of the power of someone stronger is not a new thing. Scaling to someone stronger by dividing his AP among multiple people that fought them at once is also a thing.

If Saitama has consistent non-serious feats and someone can match or endure them, they scale to that, regardless of them not comparing to his full power. Unless of course, post-Zenkai Namek Saga Base Goku all of a sudden doesn't scale to an extremely casual Final Form Frieza because Frieza bends him over when he actually gets serious.

I really don't care about putting a "Likely" on Tier 6, since the profiles were like that before at my insistance before we lost a solid tier 7 placement, but your second reasoning just has no ground to stand on when we have a explicit statement the Lion King used a fraction of the Lance's power, so we aren't scaling them to her full might anyway. You are free to argue with it after a CRT removes it as a valid method of scaling.

Edit: @ShadowWhoWalks You could try asking Mitch, perhaps? It sorta resembles the Spirit King slash on the ground feat from Fairy Tail I think.

We should just go for the usual terminology used in BL, since they are the main ones that tackle discussing this stuff aside from some groups in Space Battles. Prana, for one, is more of a fanon thing by now. Is not necessarily wrong, but it doesn't seem to really approach the desired meaning or something?

Though if you want supporting lower tier stuff, I would recommend checking Case Files since a fair bit of it has been translated and some more has been discussed. I remember something about Atomic Gatorade, our lord and savior, using weather magecraft and attacking with stuff like lightning despite not being very efficient at it (I also think he used other people in some sort of ritual set up to make it easier or something). There's also Svin using his Beast Magecraft to the limits, empowered by Volumen's powered armor-like mode, and still only barely keeping up with Faker despite being marginally faster, who fights back like she's not even trying and cuts through the armor and his reinforced body like butter.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Btw while im sure some of you know I guess I should at least say it, I have completed and posted Surtr's profile.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Looks good... very well done, Psycho.

I will reserve any other commentary for after I check the translations of the Lostbelt to make sure the official translation didn't do something stupid, but I will point out right here that we need to take off any comparisons to Zeus. The Olympus section made it very clear that Zeus had been holding back this whole time, and was engaging almost all of his power and the Chronos Crown support system that gives him access to all the Authorities to manage Olympus. So Ivan's scaling, and any other indirect scaling from other Gods to Zeus needs to be kicked into the trash.

They can still perfectly scale to Artemis though. Before the reveal, everything indicates the Machine Gods are comparable to each other for the most part, especially since Zeus had to wrestle control off some of the Gods to decisively win back when they had their disagreement millennia ago.

Edit: Oh yeah, he should also have something similar to Ea. He wasn't gonna burn the Scandinavia "World" but the Scandinavia "Texture", evident by the fact Scandinavia is perfectly complete in the Modern World. Reality erasure? Not sure what to call it but it merits being added.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Looks good... very well done, Psycho.

I will reserve any other commentary for after I check the translations of the Lostbelt to make sure the official translation didn't do something stupid, but I will point out right here that we need to take off any comparisons to Zeus. The Olympus section made it very clear that Zeus had been holding back this whole time, and was engaging almost all of his power and the Chronos Crown support system that gives him access to all the Authorities to manage Olympus. So Ivan's scaling, and any other indirect scaling from other Gods to Zeus needs to be kicked into the trash.

They can still perfectly scale to Artemis though. Before the reveal, everything indicates the Machine Gods are comparable to each other for the most part, especially since Zeus had to wrestle control off some of the Gods to decisively win back when they had their disagreement millennia ago.

Edit: Oh yeah, he should also have something similar to Ea. He wasn't gonna burn the Scandinavia "World" but the Scandinavia "Texture", evident by the fact Scandinavia is perfectly complete in the Modern World. Reality erasure? Not sure what to call it but it merits being added.

The Zues thing can be discussed in some CRT later as iirc some people disagree with not scaling or something so eh, for the Ea thing there is this "Reality Warping (His weapon was created to tear the Texture known as the Age of Gods from the planet's surface)" So maybe just add more to this explaination.

FP Surtr dabs on Zues ovo

 

[LehenDuo]

I will reserve any other commentary for after I check the translations of the Lostbelt to make sure the official translation didn't do something stupid

The fact the official translations tend to be mediocre at best is so funny

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

To be fair, Nasu can get very specific with his terminology, not to mention drawing from obscure Buddhist stuff at times. Even fans trying to be as descriptive as possible because, well, fans, tend to be left at a loss how to describe shit at times.

Is not quite as purple prose like Masada, but for a dude that is only doing his job and mayhaps doesn't care or is made to care about the lore, it can cause issues. A friend has even pointed out issues in some Tmdict stuff, or in the original Mirror Moon F/SN translation (like how "mana of 10" is put down as if literal and some people derive Shirou's magical energy capacity from it, but it is more of a phrase like saying "imagine this is a value of 10" to make a description simpler. Even Rin uses the phrase at one time to say summoning 2 Servants would be idiotic, since you'd be dividing "a power of 10 into a power of 5" supplying 2 of them).

 

[LehenDuo]

Yeah, they definitely aren't the easiest things to translate, but have you played Fuyuki recently?
God... The translation is SOOOOO ******* BAD

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Don't even remind me.

 

[ÆONS]

I remember that there was one guy (I think his name was Zouken) who was disputing the tiering of those who are ranked 2-A and said that they should instead be 2-B, if not at most 2-B+.

 

[PsychoWarper]

They where.

 

[Newendigo]

I really want to see Heaven's Feel: Spring Song movie, mainly because I want to know how the hell are they going to beat Saber Alter.

Like, the fight with Berserker lmao, after the bullshit that Heracles throwed at her, all of that for a drop of blood her "visor" falling off broken, and considering how busted Heracles is.

What the **** is going to bring Medusa who at best is around Artoria under Shiro, and Shiro with Archer's arm that is going to give him a pain in the ass even greater than in the last two routes?

Really wondering how that shit is going go, specially in a cave of all places, really..

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I myself personally believe that as well that it should be 2-B or 2-B+, but I don't have the time or the energy to make the CRT to be completely frank.

Medusa is actually rather powerful, what do you mean...?

The one that fights Saber in Fate is Medusa under Shinji, this is Medusa under Sakura. She's not as powerful as Alter, but no, she's not on the level of Saber under Shirou.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Alter gonna lose cause PLOT ovo.

 

[LehenDuo]

2-B is already being too generous in my opinion. I don't really like the 6-C for servants either, but I think that is a lost battle at this point.

About Saber Alter, plot armor goes umu
(Though, to be fair, Bellerephon is a top tier NP, so even if Medusa < Shirou's Arturia normally, she still has the edge when using the NP)

Unlimited Blade Works is a bit different, right guys?

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Does 2-B+ even exist?

Edit: I just made this if anyone cares

 

[LehenDuo]

Does 2-B+ even exist?

No, Tier 2 has no ''Low'' or ''High'' subcategories
2-B+ simply means ''high-end of the 2-B''

"+" symbol​

Currently misused to an extraordinary degree on the wiki, the "+" symbol should be used when the Attack Potency has been calculated to be greater than the average (arithmetic mean) of the high end energy level and low end energy level of a particular tier.

The "+" symbol can also be used if there exists a calculation extremely close to the arithmetic mean, and characters scale above the calculated feat by a wide margin, for example being able to defeat enemies on such levels with a single casual attack.

Example: Average of Large Building level is: [2 Tons (low end) + 11 tons (high end)]/2 = 6.5 Tons (the arithmetic mean). All energy levels from 2 Tons to 6.5 Tons should be listed as Large Building level, whereas all energy levels from 6.5 Tons to 11 Tons should be listed as Large Building level+.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

My issue with 2-A is assuming all possibilities equal timelines that already exist, when that entirely contradicts the image we are shown in Extella at the end of the game or the comparison with a tree (the entire point is that more branches sprout out with time and then get clipped, and the cycle continues. A possibility that can become a timeline in 20 years doesn't matter because at that point in time, it practically doesn't exist).

Or that infinite timelines are possible in anyway when the entire point of quantum timelocks is that there's not enough energy, so unneeded timelines are culled.

Like, I remember quoting the literal description of the phenomenon which directly acknowledges infinite possibilities, then goes right on and says "but timelines are still not infinite, they just multiplicate infinitely, but we ain't got the money to pay for those energy bills so **** those useless timelines".

 

[LehenDuo]

Not to mention ''infinite'' is used as a replacement for ''countable, but not really'' way too many times

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I mean, that one would require proof that such is the meaning intended, but in some cases it is easier to tell.

A clear, similar case would be Sakura's "inexhaustible" supply. It has a limit, but it is so absurdly high, the prospect of using it all in a lifetime is unlikely. 100 million units for a single battle with Rin was practically treated like nothing by her.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Malignant Information
#
EN ・ 中 ・ 日
concept
Just as there are curses in real life, curses, known as “malicious information,” also exist in the Photonic Abyss that is SE.RA.PH.
This malicious information is comprised of negative thoughts and sentiments born from the actions of sentient beings.
Proclamations of evil. Self-serving lies, compounding upon themselves endlessly. Demagoguery that leverages straw men to enslave the masses. All of these forms of negative information are cancers that afflict the entirety of a community by corrupting that which is positive: the truth.
In the material world, this negativity would eventually fade away per its transient nature, but in SE.RA.PH., a world made entirely of data, malicious information is a foulness that erodes its territories.
All of the malicious information that has been recorded since humanity created a language-based culture is disposed of on the Far Side of the Moon. At first, only “useless information” was thrown away there, but once billions of pieces of malicious information accumulated, the mass began to manifest as a sludge that bled into reality.
The idealized, clean history of human society is recorded on the Near Side of the Moon, while the dreadful history of humanity’s terrible crimes is recorded on the Far Side of the Moon.
For virtual beings, who subsist on spiritrons, malicious information could be considered “junk food,” complete with the accompanying rush.
In the past, a certain Al planned to consume this massive amount of energy and control the Moon Cell, but it gave up on its plan in the final stages. It is said to have sunk into the depths of the Far Side of the Moon.

Far Side of the Moon
#
EN ・ 中 ・ 日
concept
This refers not to the side of the Moon that you cannot see from the Earth, but to the other side of the Moon Cell’s internal structure.
The inner workings of the Moon Cell are divided into the Near Side and the Far Side, top and bottom, each in the shape of a half-moon.
The Far Side of the Moon is somewhat analogous to a giant “hell” that lies beneath the Earth’s crust.
Because the Moon Cell trashes information that it cannot understand, as well as unneeded divergences in human history, to its Far Side, that “side” of the Moon is a pool of chaos where innumerable curses and delusions flourish.

 

[ÆONS]

What I basically got from all that is that even when the Moon Cell eliminates (or rather moves) malignant information to the Far Side of the Moon, it still contains an infinite amount of information which comprises of both malignant and non-malignant information since the FSoTM is still a part of its whole system, hence it is still 2-A.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The actual assumption that is used to establish this consistency is that the Moon Cell has information on all of the infinite possibilities which, apparently, must manifest itself as actual literal timelines being harbored inside the Moon Cell instead of just as information. That and the ending all timelines thing from the Extra anime, which was added to the conclusion that timelines are infinite.

But tackling the information thing by itself, even if we assumed all of this information was equatable to energy, and that it was indeed infinite in volume, it would just be High 3-A. That information would need to have 4-D power, hence infinite information would make infinite 4-D power.

Which was another issue I had, the implication that the Moon Cell has infinite amounts of data. If it had recorded infinite amounts already, all of the infinite possibilities would be already recorded. Yet the Moon Cell still records, and hasn't interrupted its observation role. Unless the recorded possible universes in the Moon Cell and the possible universes in the real world are two sets of infinity, and the real world possible universes was a bigger infinite set than the one in the Moon Cell, how does the Moon Cell have both infinite recorded information yet records more? It would have a 1:1 complete set of information.

 

[ÆONS]

The actual assumption that is used to establish this consistency is that the Moon Cell has information on all of the infinite possibilities which, apparently, must manifest itself as actual literal timelines being harbored inside the Moon Cell instead of just as information. That and the ending all timelines thing from the Extra anime, which was added to the conclusion that timelines are infinite.

I am pretty sure there is a scan that definitively equates possibilities with whole parallel worlds, rather than just simply as information.

But tackling the information thing by itself, even if we assumed all of this information was equatable to energy, and that it was indeed infinite in volume, it would just be High 3-A. That information would need to have 4-D power, hence infinite information would make infinite 4-D power.

You would be right about this point so long as infinite information is equatable to infinite energy and thus equates to infinite 3-dimensional magnitudes of power, but this point is contradicted by the above scan I just showed you, which clearly equates possibilities to actual timelines or parallel worlds, which implies that anything that has to do with said possibilities, such as the infinite amount of information that the Moon Cell contains, would inherently be 4-D rather than 3-D.

Therefore, the notion that infinite information only equates to infinite 3-D power is false since there is evidence that said information is not 3-dimensional, but 4-D.

Which was another issue I had, the implication that the Moon Cell has infinite amounts of data. If it had recorded infinite amounts already, all of the infinite possibilities would be already recorded. Yet the Moon Cell still records, and hasn't interrupted its observation role. Unless the recorded possible universes in the Moon Cell and the possible universes in the real world are two sets of infinity, and the real world possible universes was a bigger infinite set than the one in the Moon Cell, how does the Moon Cell have both infinite recorded information yet records more? It would have a 1:1 complete set of information.

I'm not that well-versed when it comes to discussions about how infinities should work and such, so I won't respond to this and leave it up for someone else to answer.

 

[LehenDuo]

It's not that simple, unfortunately. For example:

Q: Are the three routes of "Fate/stay night" parallel worlds existing at the same time? I was curious since I was how it would look to Zelretch.

A: They're parallel... sort of. But if Zelretch was observing, it'd become true, and my feelings on the matter is that I'd rather two routes disappear if one was true.
If all of these became possible at the same time, the other routes would become meaningless.

And, going a bit further - The universe DOESN'T HAVE infinite possibilities. This is fact. It has a really ******* high number of possible combinations, but they are still finite in a finite timeline (which Fate is, time is finite). As Lancelot commented above, the whole point of needing the culling/pruning process is because the Nasuverse cannot contain a infinite amount of ''reality''.

Could've been =/= Is/has been.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

"Think of these" really doesn't sound like a convincing "they are", especially for someone trying to simplify something they are explaining.

Though you might wanna reread what I said before. "A possibility that can turn into a new timeline 20 years in the future doesn't matter in the present... BECAUSE IT'S 20 YEARS IN THE FUTURE". Hence, again, calling the tree of time a tree. More branches grow the farther up until they get clipped, and then they grow again. The number of timelines up and down the tree ain't fixed. The Extella credits even show it to your face.

And this is, on top of all this, disregarding the actual full text that quote is derived from. Wanna see what's a bit further down from it?

"But why do such realities become solitary? Shouldn't it be that whatever the future, the possibility of adjacent advancement persists? Unfortunately, this isn't the case. The energy to account for the proliferation of unnecessary worlds, exists nowhere within this Dimension (次元, Jigen?). That is to say, the ceaseless proliferation of Parallel Worlds may eventually exceed the capacity of the Dimension as a whole. Parallel Worlds are a necessary existence, but they cannot be let to freely multiply."

As simple math can tell you, infinite x whatever value is still infinite. Minus, still infinite. Plus, still infinite. Divided by, still infinite. If infinite timelines exist, quantum timelocks literally serve no purpose. If every possibility, no matter where in the time axis, is a fully manifested timeline, quantum timelocks serve literally no purpose. The main Plot Device of Extella, smacked on your face in the prologue of the main route, shouldn't exist or serves no purpose by this interpretation.

I actually agree that there are infinite possibilities. This very prologue smacks it on your face and says it outright. What people don't understand, is that unlike in other fictional cosmologies, the number of actual timelines varies depending on where in the time axis you are. Go before a timelock, all those erased timelines exist. Go after the timelock, the erased timelines don't exist. Applying the usual fiction fanfare of "all timelines possible exist at all times no matter where in time you are" is the assumption used here, and the wrong one. Ergo, not all possibilities are fully manifested timelines at every point in time. Unless people wanna genuinely cherry-pick and say "infinite" and "possibility is timeline" are absolutely true, but everything right after in the very same prologue is absolutely false. The rationale I remember is "infinite keeps getting mentioned everywhere, so it must be consistent" and I just asked "and quantum timelocks keep getting mentioned everywhere, ain't that consistent?"

If that one doesn't work, the only one that does is "Moon Cell can sustain infinite timelines, which aren't just information but legit timelines". Which, as I already said, no, I don't believe one bit of.

 

[ÆONS]

I see. I guess that settles just about everything. I'll change my stance to being against the notion that Nasuverse characters are 2-A since the fact that there are infinite timelines has been pretty much disproven. I'm now convinced.

Thanks for clarifying everything.