Nasuverse CRT: For the Upper Tiers.

[PrinceofPein]

@DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Kerwin0831

What do you think about this?

Really do not know what to look at.
A summary should be made

 

[Tdjwo]

Really do not know what to look at.
A summary should be made

This is basically the expantiation of the crt.

Roa claims that there's NO END to HUMAN PERCEPTION and NO END TO THE PATH TO OMNIPOTENCE. He then further makes it freakin' clear that NO MATTER HOW TRANSCENDENT SOMEONE BECOMES, THERE IS ALWAYS A HIGHER LEVEL.

Now the bolded and capitalized parts are the most critical parts of the scan.

1. NO END- simply means endless. That should be common knowledge.
2. HUMAN PERCEPTION- simply means perception. How we perceive or sense things.
3. PATH TO OMNIPOTENCE- Omnipotence means the ability to do anything. "Path" literally means the way or direction to something. In this context, Omnipotence is restricted to the levels of dimensions, which means someone with a Higher D has a higher level of omnipotence than someone with a lower D. And the levels of it are also ENDLESS as it says in the scan; NO END TO THE PATH TO OMNIPOTENCE.
4. NO MATTER HOW TRANSCENDENT SOMEONE BECOMES, THERE IS ALWAYS A HIGHER LEVEL- This, this is literally what makes it 100% clear that it's an endless hierarchy because it explicitly states that no matter how "Transcendent" someone becomes, there would always be an higher level. That's an endless hierarchy right there.

Now, the OP already suspected some people would always pull the "how do you know it was referring to higher dimensions or how does it tie in with a structure that exists in the verse" card and fortunately for them, the scan afterwards gave a very perfect example. It makes an example out of Kiara, who had higher dimensional senses, which ties in with "human perception having no ends" and how she was "omnipotent to 3D" which ties in with "omnipotence having no ends". But despite having does abilitities, she was still bound to the universe itself.

That means the reason there's no end to omnipotence, and human perception, no matter how transcendent someone became was because the Universe itself housed endless amounts of higher D's which is why someone like Kiara was still bound to the universe. This means even if Kiara kept on transcending higher D's endlessly, she would STILL be bound to the universe as there is no end to transcendence and there would always be an higher level. So in order for her to successfully surpass the universe, she has to be at least Low 1A. That is why the Universe is tiered at High 1B.

Almost everyone agrees with the statement itself being High 1B, but some don't think it applies to the universe which I already explained above that it does apply to the universe.

 

[Theoretical]

Literally no statement ever used even remotely implies that it’s dimensionless

"Due to my study into Necromancy, I have a small amount of knowledge regarding Heroic Spirits. Of course, the true Heroic Spirit engraved on the Throne of Heroes certainly has knowledge of the time spent with you. Nei- ther time nor space exists at the Throne, so the records of Heroic Spirits recorded there must be immense... however, for that reason, when Servants are summoned into this world, those records are not summoned with them. The knowledge Servants possess consists only of their memories of life, plus knowledge granted to them by the World required to operate in the present era. Beyond that are only a few small modifications. As the Throne of He- roes records all things regardless of time, if that knowledge wasn't stripped from them, any number of paradoxes could result.

Cough

 

[Theoretical]

Almost everyone agrees with the statement itself being High 1B, but some don't think it applies to the universe which I already explained above that it does apply to the universe.

I mean yeah, alot of stuff gets ****** when you try to argue it applying outside of the universe.

This time to make it clear "the universe", not textures that exist within the planet.

Almost nobody will scale to this and most characters will still remain at low 1-C. It's just for the cosmology but before this entire thing is accepted we have to reach a consensus as to where this applies cosmology wise.

Will go over this again I have time this weekend.

Ight

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

This time to make it clear "the universe", not textures that exist within the planet.

Since many people are used to evaluating the concept of the Universe as one infinite space-time continuum, it is worth noting that in the Nasuverse, the concept of "Universe" refers to a set of space-time continuums, as well as to higher dimensions existing among Parallel Worlds (for example, a Moon Cell exists in the Universe [in the Fate/EXTRA world], having 8-D).

 

[Vietthai96]

Hmmm, i think the "universe" being High 1-B is fine, since pretty much the statement refering to the universe, not outside of it or something else. Assume it is something outside the universe is pretty much require extra assumption

 

[PrinceofPein]

This is basically the expantiation of the crt.

Almost everyone agrees with the statement itself being High 1B, but some don't think it applies to the universe which I already explained above that it does apply to the universe.

So the assumption is that they are referring to higher D even though they never mentioned it?
My understanding of the scan is that no matter how strong you become there is always someone stronger.
And the Kiara part is how even though she is omnipotent now, she is still bound to something.
Honestly this is so speculative I have to disagree
Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary proof that is the motto

 

[Tdjwo]

So the assumption is that they are referring to higher D even though they never mentioned it?

There is no assumption. They did mention higher D.

My understanding of the scan is that no matter how strong you become there is always someone stronger.

Thats not the main context. The main context is no matter how transcendent someone becomes, there would always be an higher level.

And the Kiara part is how even though she is omnipotent now, she is still bound to something.
Honestly this is so speculative I have to disagree

How is it so speculative? This is not hard to understand. Kiara is omnipotent, and has an higher d senses but she is still bound to the universe.

Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary proof that is the motto

Which is what was done already.

 

[PrinceofPein]

There is no assumption. They did mention higher D.

In a different context to how even though she is higher D and omnipotent she still has something she is bound to

Thats not the main context. The main context is no matter how transcendent someone becomes, there would always be an higher level.

Which does not mean High 1-B structure, as there is literally no explanation as to whatever to what the level means in that sentence. It simply referring to how no one can be truly omnipotent.

How is it so speculative? This is not hard to understand. Kiara is omnipotent, and has an higher d senses but she is still bound to the universe.

Yes, the speculative part is the High 1-B structure

Which is what was done already.

I am not seeing it
Note me down as a disagree, I cannot go back and forth unless there is another information I missed

 

[Tdjwo]

In a different context to how even though she is higher D and omnipotent she still has something she is bound to

Can you prove it's a different context? The very fact that Roa used Kiara being higher D along with her being omnipotent proves its referring to an inf higher D transcendence.

Which does not mean High 1-B structure, as there is literally no explanation as to whatever to what the level means in that sentence. It simply referring to how no one can be truly omnipotent.

Why are you only nitpicking the word "omnipotence?" Higher perception is mentioned, and transcendence is mentioned as well. Omnipotence by itself means nothing. But if you add it along with transcendence and higher D senses, then it means a lot. Stop ignoring the other keywords. It explicitly claims that no matter how many times someone becomes omnipotent and transcendent in higher D perception, there is always an higher level. That's a blatant inf D hierarchy.

Yes, the speculative part is the High 1-B structure

Kiara is bound to the universe despite having higher d perception which ties in to what Roa said on how there is no end to the levels of transcendence.

I am not seeing it
Note me down as a disagree, I cannot go back and forth unless there is another information I missed

Or you are simply not trying to see it. Even those who disagree on the universe stuff can clearly see its an high 1B transcendence but oh well..

 

[Tarang123]

Cough

Idk if I’m blind but can you bold the bit that calls it dimensionless?

 

[Tarang123]

So the assumption is that they are referring to higher D even though they never mentioned it?
My understanding of the scan is that no matter how strong you become there is always someone stronger.
And the Kiara part is how even though she is omnipotent now, she is still bound to something.
Honestly this is so speculative I have to disagree
Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary proof that is the motto

Eh, it’s pretty blatantly talking about higher dimensions

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Idk if I’m blind but can you bold the bit that calls it dimensionless?

Nei- ther time nor space exists at the Throne

 

[Deagonx]

Or you are simply not trying to see it.

Stop accusing people of bias for disagreeing with you. You're making this whole discussion a huge headache with your constant hostility towards any detractors.

 

[Tdjwo]

Stop accusing people of bias for disagreeing with you. You're making this whole discussion a huge headache with your constant hostility towards any detractors.

I just said he's not trying to see it. I wasn't trying to be hostile.

 

[Deagonx]

I just said he's not trying to see it. I wasn't trying to be hostile.

You're framing his disagreement as a failure on his part (he just "didn't try to see it.") That is hostile, and it also adds nothing to the discussion.

 

[Tdjwo]

You're framing his disagreement as a failure on his part (he just "didn't try to see it.") That is hostile, and it also adds nothing to the discussion.

I made that statement based on this statement;

I cannot go back and forth unless there is another information I missed

Please stop trying to label me wrongly just for pointing out something I noticed. There's no hostility in my simple comment. He said he couldn't see it and can't go back and forth reading it and I simply said he wasn't trying to see it.

 

[Tdjwo]

Idk if I’m blind but can you bold the bit that calls it dimensionless?

The Throne doesn't contain any bounds of space or time.

 

[Deagonx]

Please stop trying to label me wrongly just for pointing out something I noticed. There's no hostility in my simple comment. He said he couldn't see it and can't go back and forth reading it and I simply said he wasn't trying to see it.

Don't turn this into a pointless back and forth. He said he needed a certain standard of proof to be met, you claimed it had already been met, he said he wasn't seeing it (i.e., he was not persuaded by your arguments and evidence). You met that with this accusation that he simply wasn't trying to see it, even though he already gave his assessment of your argument and evidence.

That was inappropriate, and I am telling you not to do that in the future. Take the warning and stop cluttering the thread attempting to downplay what happened.

 

[Georredannea15]

I honestly can't be arsed to repeat the same thing I just told you. Me saying; "you aren't trying to see it" is in remarks to him claiming he's not willing to go back and forth on something I was explaining about. I didnt show any hostility neither was the comment hostile at all. So instead of targeting me for every single word I say, maybe you should understand the context behind each sentences. I don't want to deal with another RvR based on someone misquoting or misinterpreting my statements. It's really tiring.

Man all you have to do is admit you were aggressive, apologise and try not to do it again. Nobody's asking you to do anything extraordinary. You need to show some maturity and virtue. If you do that, the revision won't take long.

 

[Theoretical]

Idk if I’m blind but can you bold the bit that calls it dimensionless?

Oh shit mb, I didn't know something without space-time can have the property of dimensions.

Can it?

truly omnipotent.

The root is omnipotent? So uh.

So something can be truly omnipotent, that something is independent of the cosmology. Because there can't be a limit to how transcendental a person can be (transcendental/higher dimensional).

With every higher dimensional being seemingly inhabiting those set higher dimensions as roa makes an analogy with how Kiara gaining higher dimensional senses could see outside of the world and perceive higher beings in higher dimensions.

But because she was not higher dimensional physically she was inferior to genuine higher dimensional beings and simply just decided to disregard her senses to live a regular life in lower dimensions.

If you read the thread all of it at the very least, I assume you'd understand the context.

 

[Deagonx]

The discussion regarding Tdjwo's misbehavior and subsequent warning is over, focus on the matter at hand.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, to be fair, it was only a minor misdemeanour. We shouldn't be too oversensitive.

 

[Deagonx]

I agree, it was meant to be a minor correction and then we move on. It didn't need to turn into an argument.

 

[Tdjwo]

Snip

I think the issue seems to be that no one realizes that when the word "Universe" used in regards to Roa's statement is referring to the space time structure that houses every other dimensional structure on the verse eg Mooncell, Avalon, etc. It's not just a universe like most people think. Mr. Underlord already pretty much said it better;

Since many people are used to evaluating the concept of the Universe as one infinite space-time continuum, it is worth noting that in the Nasuverse, the concept of "Universe" refers to a set of space-time continuums, as well as to higher dimensions existing among Parallel Worlds (for example, a Moon Cell exists in the Universe [in the Fate/EXTRA world], having 8-D).

Moreover, outside the universe, logic becomes irrelevant and human physical laws become disregarded which means dimensions as a whole doesn't exist outside the Universe so if we think the High 1B statement applies outside the universe, then it becomes contradictory. The Throne of Heroes for example is dimensionless and exists outside the universe. Sut typhon already cover all dimensions in the universe while existing beyond it and being connected to all things in it. The root doesn't have dimensions in it or close to it and exists outside the confines of dimensions as a whole.

So in short, the high 1B statement can only apply within the Universe and not outside it because of the lore of the outside "worlds".

 

[Deagonx]

At what point do we conclude that the thread has been rejected? For some reason the OP has decided to not update the tally with any of the staff disagrees, but so far four staff members explicitly disagree with the universe being High 1-B, with DDM neutral but leaning towards disagreeing. I am fine with letting the discussion continue, but 5 days and 4 pages of comments later we have nothing but disagrees from voting staff. I don't see a realistic path forward for this revision to pass.

 

[Hasty12345]

Honestly if that’s the case idk why it can’t be closed now

 

[Deagonx]

Honestly if that’s the case idk why it can’t be closed now

I agree, but I anticipate an outcry about it.

 

[KingNanaya]

I feel like the disagreement has less to do with whether the statement is High 1-B, and more to do with what the statement actually applies to.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

At what point do we conclude that the thread has been rejected? For some reason the OP has decided to not update the tally with any of the staff disagrees, but so far four staff members explicitly disagree with the universe being High 1-B, with DDM neutral but leaning towards disagreeing. I am fine with letting the discussion continue, but 5 days and 4 pages of comments later we have nothing but disagrees from voting staff. I don't see a realistic path forward for this revision to pass.

I would prefer to wait a little bit. Shadow's discussion with Theoretical should be evaluated, as it contained some interesting pieces of information.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I agree, but I anticipate an outcry about it.

Some staff members agrees about High 1-B, but there are questions about where does these High 1-B exists: within Universe or outside of it. Your thoughts about it?

 

[Deagonx]

Your thoughts about it?

I agree with Firestorm and Ultima's assessment that the evidence attempting to assign High 1-B to the universe is not very good.

 

[Tdjwo]

At what point do we conclude that the thread has been rejected? For some reason the OP has decided to not update the tally with any of the staff disagrees, but so far four staff members explicitly disagree with the universe being High 1-B, with DDM neutral but leaning towards disagreeing. I am fine with letting the discussion continue, but 5 days and 4 pages of comments later we have nothing but disagrees from voting staff. I don't see a realistic path forward for this revision to pass.

DDM isn't leaning towards disagreeing. He said he's neutral but leaning towards agreeing with Ultima's statement. Pretty sure some of the staff members already said they would rather wait for DT or Executo NO before finalizing their stance. And some of the staff members already agree with High 1B existing. The only issue is whether it exists within the universe which is still being debated on now.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I agree with Firestorm and Ultima's assessment that the evidence attempting to assign High 1-B to the universe is not very good.

OK, but then what place does this High 1-B occupy in cosmology? Because outside of the Universe there is only the Root and the Throne of Heroes, as well as the Outer Universe. Ofc there are also Yog-Sothoth and High 1-B that can exists below Ultimate Gate, but that seems a little bit strange for me tbh.

EDIT: but when I'm thinking about "higher-dimensional monsters" that Kiara saw, that seems less strange.

 

[Deagonx]

DDM isn't leaning towards disagreeing. He said he's neutral but leaning towards agreeing with Ultima's statement.

Ultima's statement is that the H1-B does not apply to the universe, which is a disagree. The OP directly states:

This is a revision intended to upgrade the universe from its current tier

Ultima, Lephyr, myself, and Firestorm disagree with upgrading the universe from its current tier. DDM is neutral leaning towards disagreeing.

Pretty sure some of the staff members already said they would rather wait for DT or Executo NO before finalizing their stance

No staff member said that. The only staff who mentioned them was DDM, who didn't say he would rather wait, but simply said that he may change his stance depending on if they comment.

The only issue is whether it exists within the universe which is still being debated on now.

I'm aware it's still being debated on, but debates can continue in perpetuity. The fact remains that there are 4 disagrees and 0 agrees from staff on upgrading the universe.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I'm aware it's still being debated on, but debates can continue in perpetuity. The fact remains that there are 4 disagrees and 0 agrees from staff on upgrading the universe.

I mean, this CRT can be taken as a High 1-B introduction, but not for the Universe. There is no point in completely canceling the entire CRT now, after all, there is a discussion for this.

 

[Tdjwo]

I agree with Firestorm and Ultima's assessment that the evidence attempting to assign High 1-B to the universe is not very good.

That means everyone claiming it applies beyond the universe would have to prove that higher D's exist outside the Universe because funnily enough, the throne of heores exists outside the universe, and lacks dimensionality. So how is the High 1B statement going to apply outside the universe if space and time doesn't exist outside the universe?

 

[Deagonx]

I mean, this CRT can be taken as a High 1-B introduction, but not for the Universe. There is no point in completely canceling the entire CRT now, after all, there is a discussion for this.

Remember that this is a content revision. If we don't agree upon a change being made to an actual wiki profile, then there's no revision of content.

We could potentially refashion the thread to giving some kind of H1-B upgrade to someone else, but given how much of this thread has been specifically geared at the universe, it would likely be more prudent to do a separate thread attempting to apply this statement to some other structure, since it is near-unanimously rejected that this would apply to the universe based on available evidence.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

So how is the High 1B statement going to apply outside the universe if space and time doesn't exist outside the universe?

Now I would like to discuss the Ultimate Gate and the fact that, despite the fact that they exist outside of space and time, they are called the gates of space and time. I.e. theoretically, the structure of High 1-B can exist outside the Universe, existing below the Ultimate Gate. At least it fits in pretty well with what kind of monsters Kiara saw.

 

[Tdjwo]

Now I would like to discuss the Ultimate Gate and the fact that, despite the fact that they exist outside of space and time, they are called the gates of space and time. I.e. theoretically, the structure of High 1-B can exist outside the Universe, existing below the Ultimate Gate. At least it fits in pretty well with what kind of monsters Kiara saw.

It called the gate of space and time because it encompasses everything in space and time while existing beyond it.