Nasuverse CRT: For the Upper Tiers.

[Overlord_Darkness]

It called the gate of space and time because it encompasses everything in space and time while existing beyond it.

Yes! That's is. And since High 1-B structure have space and time, it can exist outside of the Universe as part of the higher-dimensional cosmology. The Ultimate Gate fits very well in this imo

EDIT: that's also fits with Throne of Heroes that exists beyond dimensions and all other beyond-dimensional stuff
EDIT2: There are also the Dreamlands that exists as non-physical bridge for Universe and Outer Universe. Since Kiara used her mind to see higher-dimensions, she could use Dreamlands for that.

 

[Tdjwo]

Yes! That's is. And since High 1-B structure have space and time, it can exist outside of the Universe as part of the higher-dimensional cosmology. The Ultimate Gate fits very well in this imo

Oh you are basically saying the Ultimate Gate is the gate that leads to the outer universe which means it's like the peak of an high 1B structure? Well, that's still wrong. The gate is connected to all space and time in the universe.

and also exists beyond it;

And his Great God is seated beyond the ultimate gate that is beyond our universe where light cannot reach.

SO yeah, the Ultimate Gate itself cannot be within the High 1B structure.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Oh you are basically saying the Ultimate Gate is the gate that leads to the outer universe which means it's like the peak of an high 1B structure? Well, that's still wrong. The gate is connected to all space and time in the universe.

Well, this scan refers to so-called "six doors", not to the Ultimate Gate.

SO yeah, the Ultimate Gate itself cannot be within the High 1B structure.

I mean, since Ultimate Gate exists beyond the Universe and High 1-B can also exists beyond the Universe the Ultimate Gate could encompass this High 1-B structure as well. That should not contradicts to staff thoughts about High 1-B beyond the Universe and also fits with the whole cosmology.

 

[Tdjwo]

Well, this scan refers to so-called "six doors", not to the Ultimate Gate.

I mean, since Ultimate Gate exists beyond the Universe and High 1-B can also exists beyond the Universe the Ultimate Gate could encompass this High 1-B structure as well.

The "six-doors" represents all possible dimensions in the universe

Meanwhile, the ultimate gate is connected to the doors while existing beyond it.

Basically the six doors represent the universe while the ultimate gate encompasses the universe while existing beyond it. They are not the same thing.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

the Ultimate Gate is the gate that leads to the outer universe

Also, the Ultimate Gate doesn't lead to the Outer Universe. Outer Universe exists as parallel to Our Universe. Dreamlands above that since Cthulhu, being in Outer Universe, used Dreamlands to enter the Universe in Hokusai Trial Quest.

The "six-doors" represents all possible dimensions in the universe

Yea, and that's why they are reach across all of time and space. Meanwhile, Ultimate Gate governs whole time and space, existing beyond it.

 

[Tdjwo]

Also, the Ultimate Gate doesn't lead to the Outer Universe. Outer Universe exists as parallel to Our Universe. Dreamlands above that since Cthulhu, being in Outer Universe, used Dreamlands to enter the Universe in Hokusai Trial Quest.

I never said the ultimate gate leads to the outer universe. I only thought that's what you meant. Outer Universe is literally unknown location-wise. Nobody knows where it is. All we know is that it's inaccessible to te current universe.

Yea, and that's why they are reach across all of time and space. Meanwhile, Ultimate Gate governs whole time and space, existing beyond it.

Yes, we are finally in agreement here. The six doors connects all space and time. While the Ultimate gate encompasses it while being beyond it.

 

[Georredannea15]

No staff member said that. The only staff who mentioned them was DDM, who didn't say he would rather wait, but simply said that he may change his stance depending on if they comment.

Actually, I was the one who said that, because according to what Agnaa said, I think this will add at most +1 dimensionality to the existing cosmology. But it's not bad to wait for them

And I'm pretty sure that DT is one of the hardest to get agreed in Tier 1 stuff on the wiki and would like to see hard evidence, I guess he would disagree with the OP, but it would be much better to hear it from them.

Other than that, DDM was the only one willing to wait for them.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Already addressed this argument beforehand it's just a reiteration of what he said:

I am not sure why you quoted a long reply to FGO stuff that does not address my argument. But I'll reply to that too.

She was never bound by it because she chooses to be? She was bound by it from the beginning, she was never a higher dimensional being she only gained higher dimensional sense, just like how BB isn't physically higher dimensional but her mind is.

Nothing in the translation even remotely says she was physically higher dimensional outside of her senses.
We have a full stop after this.

As for why isn't as for why she was bound to the universe. It's roa going back to demonstrate how there's always one level higher because he said that beforehand gave an example of such being ascending even tho it was only with her senses, then returned to explain why the analogy is relevant.

No one said she was not bound to it at the moment of her birth. You need to demonstrate that it is impossible for her and for True Demons to not be bound to the universe. The problem is that the dialogue clearly shows that she had the option to no longer be bound to the universe and she chose not to take it.

Roa says he will explain why she is still bound to this universe.

[Kiara story about learning she is powerless]

'As such, I remain here in this world. Small though it may be, I find far greater purpose within myself here than on the other side...'

She chose not to leave to the other side, which answers the why question.

Also, BB was not physically higher dimensional? Really?

Although she is mixed with a Hawaian goddess and Outer God, per the materials she is using the Noble Phantasm her normal self has more seriously.

You realize that in CCC she gained the authority of many mother goddesses, and that she raised her physical stats to infinity, right?
CCC Kiara should be comparable.

This is so odd but whatever, I guess it makes sense to use fgo Kiara for a totally different timeline of Kiara? Do you think fgo Kiara joined the burial agency? No.

They are not hyper-literally the same being so using her fgo version is weird.

She even goes by the name Kiara Kisshouin, Chaos who's a dead apostle in tsukihime isn't in the fate worlds.

I don't understand how you thought patiently and decided to just use fgo material on material that's clearly different even with how the events played out to fgo. I don't know if this is intentionally being disingenuous or not but whatever.

Really? odd?
She became a True Demon there, and we are talking about what she would be like if she became a True Demon. Is the existence of relevance mind-blowing for you?

If it is stated that there is a general ability Dead Apostles or Servants have in a series, it should be disregarded for other Nasuverse media?

There's a difference between existing beyond the texture of humanity and existing beyond the universe, the term universe is used interchangeably with the term textures.

Outer Gods and the Outer Universe is what I'm saying is impossible for this hierarchy to exist on with our current understanding of how it works in the Nasuverse.

So I'm confused on how this is relevant, either way the unspecified location doesn't matter. True demons are comprehensible and so are God's and so is the reverse side of the world.

You still haven't provided a good explanation for why it is impossible.
You are saying the Machine Gods are comprehensible, yet they come for outside the universe outside the Textures. Please provide this understanding for how things works, since many people here don't seem to share it.

Cool, nobody is talking about being outside the texture of humanity tho lmao.

I specified outer universe, that's outside the universe not textures "the universe". I even emphasized "the universe" many times and made it synonymous with "outer universe" which is not only outside of the textures but "the universe".

Yet your argument hinges on the universe of intellect. The Surface Texture under humanity represents their human intellect and their understanding of the laws of physics.

Heck, Scáthach-Skadi says that she is technically an Outer God herself, and she just comes from an alternative dystopia timeline:

Scáthach-Skadi I do. I can tell. After all, in one sense, I am an “outer” god myself.

Outer Gods do not have minimum power. They are one of the strongest Inverse and the only known inhabitants of the outer universe.

I never said anything about being beyond the texture of humanity, that's not synonymous with being beyond human understanding of the universe. I never even said they are beyond human understanding of the universe.

Then your argument that Kiara in CCC is too weak is moot if beings from the Outer Universe can be weaker.

The Surface Texture already represents human intelligence and mentality. The Reverse Side of the World, and the universe outside of Earth contradicts it.
You even recognize that ORT is 'beyond the universe', but ORT comes from a cloud of icy debris in the Solar System.

"The Laws of Physics" as human understand it only exists in the Surface Texture. Get where the problem in your argument is now?

Spoiler: Important but lengthy quotations

"I don't know about that. They can't be judged by this planet's common sense. That's why even a concept of death doesn't exist for them. They won't stop until they achieved their objective." "Objective? You guys had such thing?" "Yes. It's not our own objective but we do. They arrived here to fulfill the wish of this planet. ...This planet died by the influence of the life forms that lived on it. The planet itself doesn't have a feeling of grief. Even perishing by the influence of its own life forms is "All right". A planet only carries a will; it carries no meaning. " But there was an exception. The planet is able to forgive it because the life forms follow the same fate as the planet. But the human species were able to live on, even on the dead land. This planet was frightened by the existence that kept on living on top of its death, and cried out for help at its end. Please, wipe out the life forms that are still alive." "...I see. So that's who you guys were" When I muttered that, the Angel said no, as she shook her head. "The only ones who were able to hear the cry of the planet, were also planets. I, no, we were the highest ranking species of those planets who received the will of this planet. For example, The Aristoteles that was called the Heaven's Corpse... what I used to be, was the most superior individual on Venus." "Wha...t?' Without knowing, I lost my breath. Our enemy were species that ruled over the alien branches of another planet, where our common sense doesn't apply. The strongest life form on a planet, was in other words, the planet itself. The human species who survived on this planet, to put it simple, were fighting 8 planets. ~Notes.

When you humans attained the Seat of Primacy, the fairies foresaw that the state of the planet would change, and accepted it. The planet alters its physical laws according to the beings that live on its surface. As such, the era that was brimming with arcana and magical energy began to decline gradually upon humans becoming the greatest power. Gods, nature in the possession of personalities, became mere natural phenomena, and the ether in the air dispersed. The passing of Solomon, the King of Magecraft, accelerated this decline of the arcane. And five hundred years ago, the Age of Gods finally came to an end. This planet became independent of nature, its ownership passed on to animals that could survive even outside of the natural cycle. Yes, to put it in simple terms, you humans. The intelligence... or the mentality that humans had acquired was directed towards illuminating the darkness of 'uncertain laws'. As a result, the planet's rules were altered to become 'laws that best suit human life'. Both dragons and fairies are infringements of this rule. Because of that, they left to inhabit the Reverse Side of the World, ceding the surface to you. The only ones remaining are those who lacked the power to migrate or those who refused to accept their end. The former are harmless but the latter pose a grave threat to humans. These powerful individuals are able to survive despite the loss of the magical energy in the air, with the potential of being threats to mankind for centuries. Anyway, you've become the representatives of this planet. But still, it's just a thin layer that can easily be peeled away. When you have a piece of cloth about to be blown away by the wind, what do you do? Leave it as it is? Obviously not. You pin it so that it doesn't come undone. ~Garden of Avalon

Reverse Side of the World [Others] The place where the evil dragon Fafnir finally arrived at the very end of the novels. The Phantasmal Races, having understood that the Age of the Gods was over, ceded the Earth’s surface to humans and moved to this place. The world where humans currently live (including the laws of physics) is like a fabric that thinly extends across the surface of the planet. Beneath that fabric exist the planet known as “Earth”. On the other hand, the Reverse Side of the World is the world as it was before humans lived there… that is, the fabric of the era where Phantasmal Races strode the land. In other words, the Earth is the bottommost layer of the planet, and it is covered by the “Reverse Side of the World”—the place where the laws of the “world” as it once was reigns, and covering that is the “Present World”.

Holmes A great analogy, Ms. Kyrielight. The tower will continue to exist at the edge of the world, while the lance is held by the tower's keeper. The only mystery that remains, is why the tower is pinned on this planet. There is a theory that our world, the human world, is nothing more than a texture placed upon the surface of this planet. Our understanding as this planet's ruling intelligent lifeform... the laws of physics as we know it... The texture that results from this understanding is our world. And it is sewn tightly to this planet so as not to be removed. What keeps it in place, my friends, is the phenomenon known as the “Tower at the Ends of the World.” And, this tower is not limited to the Isle of Britain, either. There are several around the world. One of which is the sacred lance currently in the Lion King's hands. ~FGO

Evil Dragon ...Uh, first off, let me explain where you are right now. This is the Reverse Side of the World. Hmm, or maybe a hidden place on “the other side,” so to speak, is more accurate? Basically, you can think of it as a mythical land and the home of magical beasts. Your world, the human world, is built on human laws. ...This world, however, is entirely removed from those laws. This may be difficult to understand, but your world came to exist once humanity had covered the entire planet, like a cloth. But before that could happen, beings called Phantasmals fled here. [...] Evil Dragon If the Greater Grail went out of control, that would cause a great deal of trouble for all the Demonic Beasts who live here... It's even possible that an event like that, or its aftermath, could damage one of the anchors that holds the world together. If the clothーor texture, if you likeーis torn, the laws of physics will be turned on their heads, and the Age of Gods will end up mixing with modern times. And that...wouldn't end well for anybody. Humans and Demonic Beasts would only end up hurting each other. ~FGO

They were called extra dimensional? What does that have to do with outer gods tho?

The big one was called an extra-dimensional god. Extra-dimensional can mean from a different dimension or a higher dimension; if you want to argue that it is higher dimensional, let me know.

The Giant Horror would be an example of a weak Outer God.

How can it be unsupported assumption when we have seen little to no contradictions? You tried to derive contradictions several times from already contradicted statements.

The plausible alternative on the other hand has little to no basis.

Something being possible with the existence of a multitude of viable alternatives doesn't make it a supported assumption, especially with the problems raised with your position.

Outside of the world doesn't denote for the outside of the universe, demons aren't outer God level they are miniscule in comparison they are just divine spirit level lowest of the chain scale infact.

So what she's outside of the texture of humanity? I'm so impressed that she is just beyond 4 dimensions. That still doesn't denounce my argument at all and seems to be strawmanning it again.

I mean...

Q: In Nasu's work (Kara no Kyoukai, Tsukihime, Fate, DDD) Who's the top three strongest characters? A: Magical Amber, Neco Arc, and Tiger. Well, not really. Seriously, it's Arcueid, "Ryougi Shiki", and primordial demons.(Not counting Servants)

As explained above, a major error is that you thought that the laws of physics is part of the world outside the Texture of humanity. So this needs to be reevaluated in your argument. I'll skip replies that have this problem to be more concise and avoid repitition.

That's why I specified aside from gilles and da Vinci , that doesn't pertain to Roa tho. Kiara who's a true demon still exists within the universe of intellect/ "the universe" I mentioned this beforehand.

Nobody else has knowledge on anything related to outer gods by extension Roa wouldn't including how the outer universe works.

This makes an excellent analogy; Just like Gilles told Da Vinci about the universe Eldritch beings come from, Kiara or someone else can tell Roa about the High 1-B structure (which has an unknown location, and possibly beyond the reach of Earth and perhaps the universe).

Different universe*

Not outside of the universe, they don't exist in the outer universe. That's another strawman.

Aha. And is this different universe inside the regular universe or outside of it?

Please make it make sense. Are you saying that the different universe the Machine Gods come from is nested within the universe ORT comes from?

The Outer Universe is stated to be a different space-time continuum. The Machine Gods universe is a different space-time continuum. They are not much different beside the eldritch aesthetics.

This is a prime example how badly you've strawmanned arguments in this thread, nobody said the texture of the Earth is high 1-B. It's never even referred to as the outer universe I said "the universe" not a universe/texture of humanity.

It is like you have a victim complex. I was literally asked by someone else whether I think the texture of Earth is High 1-B, and I answered. I wasn't addressing you, so if you don't disagree with my opinion on someone else's question there is no need to reply.

 

[Firestorm808]

It would seem that the current CRT can come to a close while you guys work out the follow-up thread. Yes?

 

[Deagonx]

Actually, I was the one who said that, because according to what Agnaa said, I think this will add at most +1 dimensionality to the existing cosmology. But it's not bad to wait for them

And I'm pretty sure that DT is one of the hardest to get agreed in Tier 1 stuff on the wiki and would like to see hard evidence, I guess he would disagree with the OP, but it would be much better to hear it from them.

Given that DT (and Ultima) are constantly being hounded for their input on tier 1 debacles, I think the likelihood of him taking the time to sort this out is pretty low. Especially considering all the voting staff pretty much agree that -- regardless of the statement being H1-B or not -- this can't be used to upgrade the universe which means another thread would be needed to attempt to upgrade some other realm or what have you.

For my part, I am actually inclined to disagree with the extrapolation to H1-B for this statement, but since the difference is pretty much moot if the universe is not going to be upgrade either way, it doesn't seem prudent to try and hash that out right now.

It would seem that the current CRT can come to a close while you guys work out the follow-up thread. Yes?

That seems best. With 4 clear disagrees from staff and 1 neutral leaning towards disagree, I don't see a realistic path forward to this being accepted and the thread has been open long enough.

 

[Tdjwo]

Given that DT (and Ultima) are constantly being hounded for their input on tier 1 debacles, I think the likelihood of him taking the time to sort this out is pretty low. Especially considering all the voting staff pretty much agree that -- regardless of the statement being H1-B or not -- this can't be used to upgrade the universe which means another thread would be needed to attempt to upgrade some other realm or what have you.

For my part, I am actually inclined to disagree with the extrapolation to H1-B for this statement, but since the difference is pretty much moot if the universe is not going to be upgrade either way, it doesn't seem prudent to try and hash that out right now.


That seems best. With 4 clear disagrees from staff and 1 neutral leaning towards disagree, I don't see a realistic path forward to this being accepted and the thread has been open long enough.

Are you going to respond to this statement?

That means everyone claiming it applies beyond the universe would have to prove that higher D's exist outside the Universe because funnily enough, the throne of heroes exists outside the universe, and lacks dimensionality. So how is the High 1B statement going to apply outside the universe if space and time doesn't exist outside the universe?

This is a keypoint most people who claim it doesn't apply to the universe misses.

 

[Georredannea15]

Given that DT (and Ultima) are constantly being hounded for their input on tier 1 debacles, I think the likelihood of him taking the time to sort this out is pretty low. Especially considering all the voting staff pretty much agree that -- regardless of the statement being H1-B or not -- this can't be used to upgrade the universe which means another thread would be needed to attempt to upgrade some other realm or what have you.

For my part, I am actually inclined to disagree with the extrapolation to H1-B for this statement, but since the difference is pretty much moot if the universe is not going to be upgrade either way, it doesn't seem prudent to try and hash that out right now.

I agree with this. I have argued from the beginning that there is no H1-B hierarchy. At least from what I have been told, this seems to give the current cosmology at most a +1 dimensionality. Since it's something new, I waited to hear it from DT and Agnaa, but if they can't come, there's no point in waiting.

 

[Tdjwo]

It would seem that the current CRT can come to a close while you guys work out the follow-up thread. Yes?

I mean that could be worked out except that it would most likely come to the same conclusion if none of the staff members that disagree with it applying to the universe give a specific reason as to how the outside of the universe which contains dimensionless structures would somehow stll be connected to this high 1B statement.

 

[Tdjwo]

Btw, Agnaa said he already kept this crt on his list to attend to later

I've already been asked to go to it, and added it to my list. Along with 21 other threads people have asked my help for.
On top of that, I have the very urgent Gfycat situation to deal with, so I may not get to it in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[Deagonx]

This is a keypoint most people who claim it doesn't apply to the universe misses.

No, it's just that the rebuttal is fairly obvious. There's nothing in OPs scans that insist upon a spatiotemporal conception of the word "dimension" rather than non-geometric layers of existence. In fact, the scans pretty clearly insist on the opposite.

Kiara possessed higher dimensional senses in this dimension. Singular. Which means the word dimension is referring to a general layer of existence, lest you believe her higher dimensional senses were in a specific, singular, spatial or temporal dimension. Like she only had higher dimensional senses in the 2nd of 3 spatial dimensions or something like that, which is of course nonsensical.

So the absence of space and time in the throne of heroes doesn't force this statement into/onto the Universe.

 

[Deagonx]

Btw, Agnaa said he already kept this crt on his list to attend to later

We aren't going to delay the closure of thread until Agnaa finishes his backlog, especially since even if he agreed and persuaded DDM along with him, he'd still be outvoted 4-2. And it's more likely that he doesn't agree, since he tends to be more conservative that Ultima who himself doesn't even see a Universe upgrade out of this thread.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

So, that it is actually H1-B with more wording and context but unless it is not, it is only +1 dimension, but let's wait for them anyway.

I mean the lowest tier discussed for a similar statement is arbitrarily high into 1-B, so I still don't get where you are getting the 1 + dimensionality from.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

No, it's just that the rebuttal is fairly obvious. There's nothing in OPs scans that insist upon a spatiotemporal conception of the word "dimension" rather than non-geometric layers of existence. In fact, the scans pretty clearly insist on the opposite.

The thing is that outside of the Universe there are Ultimate Gate that could encompass and governs space-time of High 1-B structure. So Ultimate Gate allows to us to consider High 1-B hierarchy as thing that exists beyond the Universe but below the Ultimate Gate. What do you think?

 

[Deagonx]

The thing is that outside of the Universe there are Ultimate Gate that could encompass and governs space-time Hight 1-B structure. So Ultimate Gate allows to us to consider High 1-B hierarchy as thing that exists beyond the Universe but below the Ultimate Gate.

It's not practical to attempt to reassign this statement to another structure and make it High 1-B within this CRT, so if that is to be attempted we will need a separate follow up thread.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

It's not practical to attempt to reassign this statement to another structure and make it High 1-B within this CRT, so if that is to be attempted we will need a separate follow up thread.

In my opinion, we are now approaching some kind of conclusion in this thread, which correlates with the opinion of staff that High 1-B can exist outside the universe. Isn't it easier to discuss this here than to create a new thread?

 

[Tdjwo]

No, it's just that the rebuttal is fairly obvious. There's nothing in OPs scans that insist upon a spatiotemporal conception of the word "dimension" rather than non-geometric layers of existence. In fact, the scans pretty clearly insist on the opposite.
Kiara possessed higher dimensional senses in this dimension. Singular. Which means the word dimension is referring to a general layer of existence, lest you believe her higher dimensional senses were in a specific, singular, spatial or temporal dimension. Like she only had higher dimensional senses in the 2nd of 3 spatial dimensions or something like that, which is of course nonsensical..

I hate to be that type of person but I have no choice than to repost this since it directly resolves this issue;

Roa claims that there's NO END to HUMAN PERCEPTION and NO END TO THE PATH TO OMNIPOTENCE. He then further makes it freakin' clear that NO MATTER HOW TRANSCENDENT SOMEONE BECOMES, THERE IS ALWAYS A HIGHER LEVEL.

Now the bolded and capitalized parts are the most critical parts of the scan.

1. NO END- simply means endless. That should be common knowledge.
2. HUMAN PERCEPTION- simply means perception. How we perceive or sense things.
3. PATH TO OMNIPOTENCE- Omnipotence means the ability to do anything. "Path" literally means the way or direction to something. In this context, Omnipotence is restricted to the levels of dimensions, which means someone with a Higher D has a higher level of omnipotence than someone with a lower D. And the levels of it are also ENDLESS as it says in the scan; NO END TO THE PATH TO OMNIPOTENCE.
4. NO MATTER HOW TRANSCENDENT SOMEONE BECOMES, THERE IS ALWAYS A HIGHER LEVEL- This, this is literally what makes it 100% clear that it's an endless hierarchy because it explicitly states that no matter how "Transcendent" someone becomes, there would always be an higher level. That's an endless hierarchy right there.

Now, the OP already suspected some people would always pull the "how do you know it was referring to higher dimensions or how does it tie in with a structure that exists in the verse" card and fortunately for them, the scan afterwards gave a very perfect example. It makes an example out of Kiara, who had higher dimensional senses, which ties in with "human perception having no ends" and how she was "omnipotent to 3D" which ties in with "omnipotence having no ends". But despite having does abilitities, she was still bound to the universe itself.

That means the reason there's no end to omnipotence, and human perception, no matter how transcendent someone became was because the Universe itself housed endless amounts of higher D's which is why someone like Kiara was still bound to the universe. This means even if Kiara kept on transcending higher D's endlessly, she would STILL be bound to the universe as there is no end to transcendence and there would always be an higher level. So in order for her to successfully surpass the universe, she has to be at least Low 1A. That is why the Universe is tiered at High 1B.

See? Isn't that so simple to comprehend? Literally so simple. It ties in with the wiki's description of High 1B.

 

[Tdjwo]

We aren't going to delay the closure of thread until Agnaa finishes his backlog, especially since even if he agreed and persuaded DDM along with him, he'd still be outvoted 4-2. And it's more likely that he doesn't agree, since he tends to be more conservative that Ultima who himself doesn't even see a Universe upgrade out of this thread.

We've delayed threads and crt's on multiple occasions in order to give a very important and knowledgeable staff member time to make up a post. Hell, we are still doing it currently on the Low 1A thread so idrk what you are talking about. Agnaa, Ultima and DT are the three main overseers of the Tier 1 revisions so it's pretty logical for us to wait for him especially when he already said he's kept it on his list to attend to.

 

[Tam0n3n]

For those who are disagreeing, please share your alternative explanations that you believe offer even greater logical coherence than the original proposition put forth by OP

 

[Deagonx]

I hate to be that type of person but I have no choice than to repost this since it directly resolves this issue;

That post does nothing to resolve the fact that the text clearly rejects the idea that the word "dimension" in these contexts are spatiotemporal. In fact, it does nothing to even touch on that issue.

We've delayed threads and crt's on multiple occasions in order to give a very important and knowledgeable staff member time to make up a post. Hell, we are still doing it currently on the Low 1A thread so idrk what you are talking about. Agnaa, Ultima and DT are the three main overseers of the Tier 1 revisions so it's pretty logical for us to wait for him especially when he already said he's kept it on his list to attend to.

There are no overseers of different tiers. Agnaas vote is worth the same as Ultimas, mine, Lephyrs, and Firestorms.

It's just a simple fact. There's no reason to wait around for a vote which, even on the off-chance that it did land in your favor, would do nothing to change the outcome of this CRT.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

We've delayed threads and crt's on multiple occasions in order to give a very important and knowledgeable staff member time to make up a post. Hell, we are still doing it currently on the Low 1A thread so idrk what you are talking about. Agnaa, Ultima and DT are the three main overseers of the Tier 1 revisions so it's pretty logical for us to wait for him especially when he already said he's kept it on his list to attend to.

He seems to be too busy to wait for.

 

[Tarang123]

Oh shit mb, I didn't know something without space-time can have the property of dimensions.

Can it?

You said there was a statement of it being dimensionless. When you say that you usually expect it to be pretty explicitly saying that

 

[Accelerate420]

The Throne of Heroes is literally dimensionless while existing outside the universe. Thr universe is literally what Roa was referring to when he implied that High 1B statement.

This is literally baseless

Dimensionless? Outside the universe? How was ORT effecting it in LB7 then? It was stated that its attacks reach into Higher Dimensions by using the Servants as terminals, implying the Throne of Heroes is reachable by Higher Dimensions. How would that make it dimensionless when it can be reached through Higher Dimensional range?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It's just a simple fact. There's no reason to wait around for a vote which, even on the off-chance that it did land in your favor, would do nothing to change the outcome of this CRT.

(This is more a generalized statement) It would still be prudent to wait for the chance that maybe their perspective may change others opinions. I would 100% be open myself for such.

Though in this case I simply don't find the evidence sufficient, and I don't believe that would change (specially with Shadows argumentation which seems to support that the universe indeed does not need to necessarily contain these dimensions, unless I mistook something).

 

[Tdjwo]

That post does nothing to resolve the fact that the text clearly rejects the idea that the word "dimension" in these contexts are spatiotemporal. In fact, it does nothing to even touch on that issue.

The text explicitly mentions "higher dimensional perception." That's more than enough to show the context behind the scan.

There are no overseers of different tiers. Agnaas vote is worth the same as Ultimas, mine, Lephyrs, and Firestorms.

It's just a simple fact. There's no reason to wait around for a vote which, even on the off-chance that it did land in your favor, would do nothing to change the outcome of this CRT.

I never said Agnaa's vote is worth more than anyone's. I'm simply saying his explanation might be better and able to convince people better since he's more knowledgeable on stuffs like this than you and I.

 

[Tdjwo]

He seems to be too busy to wait for.

Doesn't matter how long. There are crt's that are still opened for longer times. There's no need to rush. He's a respectable admin. I'm pretty sure we can wait for him. If Antvasima told y'all to wait for a staff member for 2+ months, no one would say anything.

Dimensionless? Outside the universe? How was ORT effecting it in LB7 then? It was stated that its attacks reach into Higher Dimensions by using the Servants as terminals, implying the Throne of Heroes is reachable by Higher Dimensions. How would that make it dimensionless when it can be reached through Higher Dimensional range?

Excluding your mentioning of ORT, nothing here disproves the Throne being dimensionless. It should be common knowledge by now that entities/structures in the Nasuverse that are considered higher than other entities are still referred to as "higher plane." Even the Root has been referred to as an higher plane despite not implying higher dimensions. It simply means they are higher than other structures/planes in the Nasuverse

Regarding ORT, there's a special case about him which won't be discussed here now. Just like how ROa had 1A soul via scaling bypassing 1A Root's erasure, ORT has something similar about him. It's not an antifeat.

 

[Ped2018]

If Antvasima told y'all to wait for a staff member for 2+ months, no one would say anything.

Ehh, i don't think so... we have rules for that, iirc if a staff doesn't respond in two weeks then we can continue without them.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

No, it's just that the rebuttal is fairly obvious. There's nothing in OPs scans that insist upon a spatiotemporal conception of the word "dimension" rather than non-geometric layers of existence. In fact, the scans pretty clearly insist on the opposite.

Kiara possessed higher dimensional senses in this dimension. Singular. Which means the word dimension is referring to a general layer of existence, lest you believe her higher dimensional senses were in a specific, singular, spatial or temporal dimension. Like she only had higher dimensional senses in the 2nd of 3 spatial dimensions or something like that, which is of course nonsensical.

So the absence of space and time in the throne of heroes doesn't force this statement into/onto the Universe.

Don't think this objection works.

What is stated is that Kiara possessing higher dimensional senses made her omnipotent/almighty in this dimension. It does not restrict her to the dimension Roa and regular people live in. And yes, it is possible for the dimension in the singular to refer to geometric spatiotemporal layers of existence. For example in one of Nasu's older work he made this statement:

 

[Tdjwo]

Ehh, i don't think so... we have rules for that, iirc if a staff doesn't respond in two weeks then we can continue without them.

Ofc we can continue which is what we are supposed to be doing. Not just closing the thread after a staff member already said he would be here albeit taking some time. I used the Low 1A crt as an example. That thread has been open for month now and there were many instances where they had to wait for Ultima, Agnaa and DT for a long time which is understandable considering they are the ones with the most knowledge regarding Tier 1's.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Ofc we can continue which is what we are supposed to be doing. Not just closing the thread after a staff member already said he would be here albeit taking some time. I used the Low 1A crt as an example. That thread has been open for month now and there were many instances where they had to wait for Ultima, Agnaa and DT for a long time which is understandable considering they are the ones with the most knowledge regarding Tier 1's.

This thread doesn't pertain to wiki policy and standards.

 

[Deagonx]

The text explicitly mentions "higher dimensional perception." That's more than enough to show the context behind the scan.

No it isn't, because if "dimension" refers to a general layer of existence rather than spatiotemporal dimensions, it would still be a "higher dimensional perception."

 

[Tdjwo]

No it isn't, because if "dimension" refers to a general layer of existence rather than spatiotemporal dimensions, it would still be a "higher dimensional perception."

Wow. It explicitly mentions "transcendence" along with "higher dimensional" and "universe" yet it's somehow not referring to spatiotemporal dimensions. Calling this a stretch is an understatement.

 

[Tdjwo]

This thread doesn't pertain to wiki policy and standards.

There's no specific rule that states "You can allow admins to reply to a comment after a very long time when it comes to tiering revision but you cant allow them to do the same in a regular crt."

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

There's no specific rule that states "You can allow admins to reply to a comment after a very long time when it comes to tiering revision but you cant allow them to do the same in a regular crt."

Well looks like those threads were treated as exceptions then as they had more importance.

 

[Deagonx]

Wow. It explicitly mentions "transcendence" along with "higher dimensional" and "universe" yet it's somehow not referring to spatiotemporal dimensions. Calling this a stretch is an understatement.

None of what you said implies or even strengthens the case for them being spatiotemporal. All of that can just as easily refer to a generic layer of existence.

 

[Tdjwo]

None of what you said implies or even strengthens the case for them being spatiotemporal. All of that can just as easily refer to a generic layer of existence.

What does "a layer of existence" mean to you? Because as far as I can read, the scan implies "endless" and "limitless" transcendence" not just +1 transcendence lol. Even the sentence "layer of existence" is used on the High 1B description;

High 1-B: High Hyperverse level​

Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures whose size is equivalent to a countably infinite number of qualitative sizes above a universal model, usually represented in fiction by endless hierarchies of layers of existence, each succeeding one completely trivializing the previous into insignificance, or more generally a space with countably infinite dimensions

SO if you are trying to change he context of the scan by giving it a different implication or definition by calling it "layer of existence" rather than higher spatiotemporal dimensions, just know the wiki thinks it's the same meaning.