Nasuverse CRT: For the Upper Tiers.

[Overlord_Darkness]

@MrUnderlord would you make such a thread and link it here? A summary to be provided would be very useful indeed.

In few hours only. I'm really sorry about that, but I'll create it when I'll be able to do that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

In few hours only. I'm really sorry about that, but I'll create it when I'll be able to do that.

No worries, there's no hurry

Also gives time to other staff if they want to chime in after all.

 

[Tdjwo]

In short: the new staff relates to the "six doors" of the Yog-Sothoth that reaches across all of time and space that should also reach across spatiotemporal structure of High 1-B. "Six doors" considered to be the Universe itself so that should make High 1-B structure a part of the Universe

Just so you know, Yog isn't the one stated to be beyond the doors itself. It's the ultimate gate that's beyond the doors. I said this earlier. But Yog is even beyond the Gate itself. Yog>Gate>Six doors/universe.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

I am not sure why you quoted a long reply to FGO stuff that does not address my argument. But I'll reply to that too.

?
It didn't only include fgo stuff, I'm not sure why you specifically chose the fgo stuff without addressing the stuff that actually addresses your argument?

No one said she was not bound to it at the moment of her birth. You need to demonstrate that it is impossible for her and for True Demons to not be bound to the universe.

I literally did?

1. They lose to 6D beings bound by the universe

2. They aren't outside of the universe, literally they exist inside of it

3. At the very least if you're gonna say they're beyond the universe.

1. Ort is clearly shown to be beyond the universe himself. His spiders can reach to the throne of heroes which exist outside and beyond the universe even when he himself exists in the universe.
2. Outer gods scale beyond the universe via existence, ap and even range. They exist beyond and outside of it, can interact with the throne to forcibly summon servants and they are repeatedly said to be beyond comprehension by the standards of the laws of the universe not just knowledge of the characters (this is attributed to their party when da Vinci says if know is power the unknown is more powerful.
3. Arc, she has reached into the akashic records once I suppose. Which the akashic records encompasses reality in its totality. However it was hax but this is just a depiction of range.

She has nothing comparable to this, no evidence outside a vague quote talking about "This world", not "The universe".

She was never bound by it because she chooses to be? She was bound by it from the beginning, she was never a higher dimensional being she only gained higher dimensional sense, just like how BB isn't physically higher dimensional but her mind is.

Nothing in the translation even remotely says she was physically higher dimensional outside of her senses.

We have a full stop after this.


As for why isn't as for why she was bound to the universe. It's roa going back to demonstrate how there's always one level higher because he said that beforehand gave an example of such being ascending even tho it was only with her senses, then returned to explain why the analogy is relevant.

I don't have alot of time to be addressing something that has already been addressed with the person I'm talking to literally ignoring it and saying "why are you responding to FGO stuff"

Do you think this is fgo stuff?

No one said she was not bound to it at the moment of her birth. You need to demonstrate that it is impossible for her and for True Demons to not be bound to the universe. The problem is that the dialogue clearly shows that she had the option to no longer be bound to the universe and she chose not to take it.

I already did? You ignored that?

I already addressed this beforehand, when they mean outside of this world they clearly refer to dimension, as they say she become omnipotent in this dimension (either a reference to humanities texture or just 3 mathematical dimensions), gods are Higher Dimensional but don't exist outside of the universe they exist in the reverse side of the world. Her being said to be outside of this "world" is likely referring to humanities texture which is only 3D spatially with 1 temporal dimensions that's what "this dimension" denotes for anyways cause that's currently where Roa is at.

The divine spirits and gods also have similar statements of existing outside of human history and watching over it in higher dimensions, now is ascending into a singular higher dimension somehow now enough to be beyond the universe in the Nasuverse now?

The statement of true demons being beyond the universe shouldn't even be used. This different ways to be beyond the universe, non of the true demons that have showed up live up to that hype.

They get defeated by mythological Mystic Code amped servants, that's the lowest in the scaling chain and at best is 8D, if they were truly outside/beyond of the universe I don't see why they'd lose to characters that are not beyond the universe and only have scaling for higher dimensions which exist as a subset of the universe (6D/8D).

One way for a being to be depicted to be beyond the universe is either through range/attack potency/existence atleast within the context of the nasuverse.

1. Ort is clearly shown to be beyond the universe himself. His spiders can reach to the throne of heroes which exist outside and beyond the universe even when he himself exists in the universe.
2. Outer gods scale beyond the universe via existence, ap and even range. They exist beyond and outside of it, can interact with the throne to forcibly summon servants and they are repeatedly said to be beyond comprehension by the standards of the laws of the universe not just knowledge of the characters (this is attributed to their party when da Vinci says if know is power the unknown is more powerful.
3. Arc, she has reached into the akashic records once I suppose. Which the akashic records encompasses reality in its totality. However it was hax but this is just a depiction of range.

True demons have nothing like this outside of one hype statement, true demon Kiara herself has never had any showing like this or any other supporting statements to go by her

• Being beyond human comprehension (it's already contradicted)
• Her being beyond the universe.
• There's also this thing of outer gods powers driving to people into madness as a part of them being beyond human comprehension, they just have a better basis and consistency. So to use another character who lacks that doesn't invalidate how this should be interpreted.

Like?

Roa says he will explain why she is still bound to this universe.

[Kiara story about learning she is powerless]

Already addressed this, he said gave an analogy as to how there's no limit to how higher dimensional you are and said "as for why" to return to demonstrate how there's no limit because there's always a higher being its not to respond about why she was bound by the universe.

Also, BB was not physically higher dimensional? Really?

Yes her page is only limited higher dimensional existence (her mind only).

Although she is mixed with a Hawaian goddess and Outer God, per the materials she is using the Noble Phantasm her normal self has more seriously

Mixing with divine spirits doesn't mean shit, if it was the Sakura five would be the strongest servants.

We know the moon cell has a miniature version of actual authorities if it did BB wouldn't be inferior to tiamat even tho they have the same authority of a mother goddess, I know for a fact CCC BB is not mixed with an outer God.

CCC BB never merged with any outer gods I'm talking about CCC

Everytime you reply I'm confused on what you're addressing, cause you bring up the most random stuff

Yet your argument hinges on the universe of intellect. The Surface Texture under humanity represents their human intellect and their understanding of the laws of physics.

No

"the universe" that contains every celestial body is the universe of intellect what

HELLO? God's can be comprehended and fall under human intellect, why tf is the word laws of physics like its interchangeable with laws of physics.

They never even said human intellect they just said intellect

Heck, Scáthach-Skadi says that she is technically an Outer God herself, and she just comes from an alternative dystopia timeline:

Clearly she means outer God as in deriving from a different time line can you prove it refers to actual outer gods?

The Surface Texture already represents human intelligence and mentality.

So does the reverse side of the world?

The term human intellect isn't mentioned they said intellect, not once did they say human intellect.

Surface texture representing doesn't imply the reverse side doesn't. God's have been comprehended before.

RITSUKA FUJIMARU PERCEIVES GOD'S FOR A LIVING AS HUMAN HE DOESN'T GET DRIVEN TO MADNESS

WHAT ARE THESE WEIRD ANALOGIES

You even recognize that ORT is 'beyond the universe', but ORT comes from a cloud of icy debris in the Solar System.

The statement of true demons being beyond the universe shouldn't even be used. This different ways to be beyond the universe, non of the true demons that have showed up live up to that hype.

They get defeated by mythological Mystic Code amped servants, that's the lowest in the scaling chain and at best is 8D, if they were truly outside/beyond of the universe I don't see why they'd lose to characters that are not beyond the universe and only have scaling for higher dimensions which exist as a subset of the universe (6D/8D)

One way for a being to be depicted to be beyond the universe is either through range/attack potency/existence atleast within the context of the nasuverse.

1. Ort is clearly shown to be beyond the universe himself. His spiders can reach to the throne of heroes which exist outside and beyond the universe even when he himself exists in the universe.
2. Outer gods scale beyond the universe via existence, ap and even range. They exist beyond and outside of it, can interact with the throne to forcibly summon servants and they are repeatedly said to be beyond comprehension by the standards of the laws of the universe not just knowledge of the characters (this is attributed to their party when da Vinci says if know is power the unknown is more powerful.
3. Arc, she has reached into the akashic records once I suppose. Which the akashic records encompasses reality in its totality. However it was hax but this is just a depiction of range.

True demons have nothing like this outside of one hype statement, true demon Kiara herself has never had any showing like this or any other supporting statements to go by her

• Being beyond human comprehension (it's already contradicted)
• Her being beyond the universe.
• There's also this thing of outer gods powers driving to people into madness as a part of them being beyond human comprehension, they just have a better basis and consistency. So to use another character who lacks that doesn't invalidate how this should be interpreted.

Brother in Christ, if I have to respond to another text wall that ignores what I'm saying and provided dis-analogous, I'll be driven to suicide.

You ignore what I said again, I already addressed this. You're taking what I'm saying ignoring context to support what you're saying.

I clearly show you how the nasuverse demonstrates ways to depict being beyond the universe, which true demons don't have anything for that and I have you contradictions to why true demons wouldn't have that

Its not just about existence ort ap and range wise can reach beyond the universe he already has a feat for that, outer gods are beyond the universe via their existence, ap and even range.

You realize that in CCC she gained the authority of many mother goddesses, and that she raised her physical stats to infinity, right?
CCC Kiara should be comparable.

She's still inferior to mother goddesses.

Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (As a fully mature Beast, she should be superior to Kiara. Quetzalcoatl admitted that, even if she had her full power and gathered every other divinity left in Mesopotamia, she'd still stand no chance at defeating Tiamat. Even with the Chains of Heaven, Kingu was only able to restrain her for a few seconds before she broke free, despite possessing the body and power of the original living Enkidu and the chains specifically becoming stronger against targets with divinity, making her far stronger than Gilgamesh)

Gaining multiple mother goddess authority but being inferior to a mother goddess alone is wild, she's inferior Kiara who's inferior to tiamat?

I literally don't care about Kiara being comparable to an 8 dimensional being that was the point she's 8 dimensional and bound by the higher dimensions of the universe she has no beyond the universe feat, rising your stats to infinity is such a random argument. Do you think just having infinite power somehow supports them being beyond the universe genuinely what are you waffling about bro


Confused

I mean...

Q: In Nasu's work (Kara no Kyoukai, Tsukihime, Fate, DDD) Who's the top three strongest characters? A: Magical Amber, Neco Arc, and Tiger. Well, not really. Seriously, it's Arcueid, "Ryougi Shiki", and primordial demons.(Not counting Servants

Omg, lord please save me. This is an old ass statement that's already contradicted.

Kiara is a true demon in CCC and CCC is one of the lowest in chain scales

The Giant Horror would be an example of a weak Outer God.

Doesn't mean it's an outer God? Cool we dismiss that.

Didn't even drive anyone to madness. It's a weak outer gods idc,it's levels uncountably infinitely inferior to real outer gods.

Got one shot by a servant who are inferior to 6 dimensional gods, outer gods are a uncountably infinitely superior to God's even by this wikis scaling standards. That's why Abigail is complex multiversal=7D.

As explained above, a major error is that you thought that the laws of physics is part of the world outside the Texture of humanity

No? I never once said that

Another strawman? Like genuinely show me where I once said that in this entire thread I can give you an entire century to search tell me when you find that statement of me saying that.

Aha. And is this different universe inside the regular universe or outside of it?

We don't know.

This makes an excellent analogy; Just like Gilles told Da Vinci about the universe Eldritch beings come from, Kiara or someone else can tell Roa about the High 1-B structure (which has an unknown location, and possibly beyond the reach of Earth and perhaps the universe).

This genuinely cannot be real arguments?

Gilles already knows about outer gods, can you prove Kiara or anyone in the Burien agency knows about outer gods if not its another one of your dis-analogous arguments.

The Outer Universe is stated to be a different space-time continuum. The Machine Gods universe is a different space-time continuum. They are not much different beside the eldritch aesthetics.

Yes yes, we have infinite parallel worlds in the texture of humanity. Persona A comes from a different parallel world oh wow that somehow implies simply being from a different space-time means you're outer god Level because they are said to be from a different space-time continuum.

Oh my wooooooow

Dis-analagous, now get me a statement of them coming outside of "the universe" if you don't have it don't bother making anymore text walks of Dis-analagous arguments.

It is like you have a victim complex. I was literally asked by someone else whether I think the texture of Earth is High 1-B, and I answered. I wasn't addressing you, so if you don't disagree with my opinion on someone else's question there is no need to reply.

You responded to me

If you weren't addressing me then why respond to me and not someone else who asked you.

 

[Ped2018]

I ain't reading allat

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

You mean the six doors that represent normal 3 dimensional movement?

They said "up, down, left, right, front, back....", "...." represents that there's more we know there's already more and they already exist beyond that.

I don't know how genuinely people think, think, think and actually type arguments like this.

If you ask a physicist, if 3 axis of movement is that, what of the 4th?

Like do you genuinely think, they'd answer that. Why? Oh wait....probably because nobody knows what's the next axis aside from the fact that it's another perpendicular line added.

My question is? If physicist and no human can answer that does anyone in this thread think an author of a fictional verse could respond to that?

Similarly mash stops at the only axis we know and there's "...." after that which signifies there's a continuation of the axis she's just not obligated to state all of them , we know there's more so the interpretation is fine.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

I ain't reading allat

If I was you I wouldn't too, I hate waking up and having to respond to text walls.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

They said "up, down, left, right, front, back....", "...." represents that there's more we know there's already more and they already exist beyond that.

"..." is not in the raws.

RAWS: 六つの扉は、上下、左右、前後の、 あらゆる空間を、意味して、いる。


ENGLISH TRANSLATION: The six doors signifies every space going up and down, left and right, front and back.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

You said there was a statement of it being dimensionless. When you say that you usually expect it to be pretty explicitly saying that

So you agree, something without space-time lacks properties of dimensions? That's the point.

We don't need an explicit statement when one term implies another term.

How was ORT effecting it in LB7 then?

How tf does ort affecting it act as an anti feat

It was stated that its attacks reach into Higher Dimensions by using the Servants as terminals, implying the Throne of Heroes is reachable by Higher Dimensions. How would that make it dimensionless when it can be reached through Higher Dimensional range?

This was already addressed in the thread, I brought it up myself.

There are more statements for the throne not having the concept of time and space, than a singular statement of kadoc. Who isn't even particularly smart.

Even the Root has been referred to as an higher plane despite not implying higher dimensions. It simply means they are higher than other structures/planes in the Nasuverse

Regarding ORT, there's a special case about him which won't be discussed here now. Just like how ROa had 1A soul via scaling bypassing 1A Root's erasure, ORT has something similar about him. It's not an antifeat

Real, wildly enough the root also not being spatial nor temporal.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

"..." is not in the raws.

In the N/A yes, an official translation to English.

What's wrong with using that? Even if she didn't say "..."

If you ask a physicist, if 3 axis of movement is that, what of the 4th?

Like do you genuinely think, they'd answer that. Why? Oh wait....probably because nobody knows what's the next axis aside from the fact that it's another perpendicular line added.

My question is? If physicist and no human can answer that does anyone in this thread think an author of a fictional verse could respond to that?

Similarly mash stops at the only axis we know and there's "...." after that which signifies there's a continuation of the axis she's just not obligated to state all of them , we know there's more so the interpretation is fine.

The logic behind this is fine.

Supported by the source material because we know there's more than 3 dimensions.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

"..." is not in the raws.

Even if "..." was present in that section it would not point to more existing but rather her weird way of talking unless you want to blatantly ignore how she has been talking until up to that point.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

In the N/A yes, an official translation to English.

What's wrong with using that? Even if she didn't say "..."

The logic behind this is fine.

Supported by the source material because we know there's more than 3 dimensions.

Because it's not present within the original text which has the superior context so you can't assert something that is just isn't there within the scan.

Seems like a blatant contradiction that we let pass since they're stated to be beyond the universe and space-time. It's clearly limited to only 6 gates.

 

[Firestorm808]

Since discussion has moved away from the OP, I'll be closing this thread and let you guys settle this discussion somewhere else.

@LephyrTheRevanchist Do you agree?