Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
I think it was when the crt was being prepared and you got tagged to contribute but you weren't there.Don’t know exactly why I was credited here
I mean sure ig? If this was somehow rationalized through narrative consistency. Actually no rationalized anywhere in the source material which it actually says the opposite.The infinite dimensions do not necessarily need to apply to the universe.
I mean I agree with this, but what I find odd is just how these conclusions are just... Arbitrary.Learn to accept people can simply not agree with your conclusions. Period.
Like genuinely excluding this cause I don't see anybody addressing it and the explanation prior to this."this universe"
That also has higher dimensions, whilst her herself she only gained higher dimensional senses. At the end of the day the higher dimensional beings they reference still only exist in "the universe", cause it doesn't make narrative sense for it to be outside of the universe which is practically Incomprehensible to anyone.
Especially roa, atleast gilles can discern a few properties of the things that exist outside of the universe not Roa.
Which we're taking his own knowledge into account and the limits of it.
Once again, wouldn't make sense narratively.
And when they say she's still bound to this universe, it is to say she's subjected to the idea that there'll always be a higher level. It's perfectly feasible considering "the universe" already has higher dimensions, that's why we have gods who are 6D existing in a higher dimensional plane the reverse side of the world, we have the moon cell having several higher dimensional planes Imaginary number of space, the core and the wall defending the core; all of these higher dimensions existing in "the universe" and are subsets of it. However outside of it its hard to discern such things existing because laws of physics usually don't apply outside of the universe and is regarded as beyond reasoning functioning under laws completely different from "the universe".
It's completely unreasonable to assume the hierarchy that's being mentioned applies for various reasons.
I'd like to note that the nasuverse has never been demonstrated to work under universe^universe^universe, that's another reason why saying this is not even reasonable.
We only have texture of humanity=4D already confirmed. Assuming Kiara was a regular 3D being she gained atleast 4D senses or then she found out there were beings superior to her via them being genuine higher dimensional beings.
Then from there, there's never a mention of a 5th dimensional universe, so you can't say universe=4D, then we get another universe=5D.
The only time the 5th dimension was referenced in the Nasuverse was with one of the noble phantasms gilgamesh had which can reach up to the 5th dimension, but even that doesn't mean there exist a universe above the 4th dimensional universe/texture of humanity, it could be that because we have a 6 dimensional plane in the reverse side of the world the 5th dimensional one exists as subset of the 6th and the 6th dimension/reverse side of the world embeds itself on that 5th.
From there, there's no mention of the 7th at all, just a jump to the 8th, via the wall defending the core. Which means this interpretation has no narrative basis at all.
From the 8th we just have "the universe", which contains all of those dimensions higher snd lower ones.
And outside of that there can't exist such things and even if they did, Roa wouldn't know about it as per the nature of the outside world being beyond reasoning, logic and functioning under laws completely different from the universe.
I even one of the statements say everything about the laws of the universe including the known chain hierarchy of dimensions in the universe cannot be applied to the outer universe/outside of the universe.
Even says the universe is the world of intellect and outside is the opposite of that which supports the prior statements of it being beyond reasoning or whatnot.
Roa's statements do fall under intellect as he speaks from his own understanding of the universe and knowledge of it, that can't be applied to the outside of the universe considering he also barely knows how that works. Only gilles and da Vinci post gilles telling her but even with those explanations it's all left vague.
So for various reasons it cannot apply outside of the universe.
There's never once in the statements where he references the outside of the universe, we know he doesn't even know about that as of now outside of gilles in fgo. This doesn't make sense.But even she is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe.
You completely saw my message and ignored it when I directly explained how it's derived tho which is pretty odd but Ight.There is no connection between them.
- "There is no upper bound to human perception――no end to the path toward omnipotence."
- Kiara has "higher dimensional senses"
- Kiara > 3-D
- Kiara "is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe."
I hope so, but so far I haven't seen anythingCan those in opposition genuinely assert that there is a more logical explanation for ROA's quote?
1-A plunuts > Pcincipals > ConceptsI hope so, but so far I haven't seen anything
Actually, I'm fairly known to be one of the peeps that unironically just shrugs and move on if I can't convince others of my stance.I don't think you'd accept a person dismissing your conclusion arbitrarily as well, especially when one party took their time to actually rationalize their stance whilst the other party doesn't.
Solos weak root on very existent in misfits1-A plunuts > Pcincipals > Concepts
Very Existant root soloes
Ight that's kinda funny.Actually, I'm fairly known to be one of the peeps that unironically just shrugs and move on if I can't convince others of my stance
I came to my personal conclusion that simply aligned with Firestorm.Ight that's kinda funny.
But anyways, you didn't try to convince anyone you just accepted that interpretation arbitrarily tho.
OH? So regardless of the source material contradicting and that practically it having no basis Inverse wise it's okay?I came to my personal conclusion that simply aligned with Firestorm.
Also what was supposed to be the take away from this, was it to address tdjwo's behavior or does it somehow pertain to whether or not this thread gets accepted?I have been outvoted regardless of how much nonsensical I may find an argument, or even that they are straight wrong on the way they interpret things; I've also gone against multiple upgrades regarding verses I support that end up passing, and the opposite has happened as well. I accept I can't convince everyone of my points, nor do I get heated for it. It is what it is
Ngl you should chill out before it escalates more.OH? So regardless of the source material contradicting and that practically it having no basis Inverse wise it's okay?
Also what was supposed to be the take away from this, was it to address tdjwo's behavior or does it somehow pertain to whether or not this thread gets accepted?
That your comment doesn't apply to me.Also what was supposed to be the take away from this, was it to address tdjwo's behavior or does it somehow pertain to whether or not this thread gets accepted?
Lephyr is rising up the ranks just so they can delete the whole site when they become an bureaucratYou won't believe my take on power scaling which fundamentally goes against everything done on the wiki
It's just a question I'm calm.Ngl you should chill out before it escalates more.
OH, nvm I know what you're talking about.That your comment doesn't apply to me.
Lephyr is rising up the ranks just so they can delete the whole site when they become an bureaucrat
Migue already agreed btw.
Not in this thread I am afraid. Just waiting for a conclusion on where Roa's statement puts the cosmology.I recommend waiting for Shadow tho since apparently he's cooking
Just pointing out that you seem to have misread the quote from Agnaa you brought up. "No matter how many dimensions" is given as an example of acceptable exceptions which are "very explicit that they generalise".I am still waiting for DT and Agnaa because I am sure they will also say what I have quoted here. According to them and their new standards, I am sure that this would only add +1 dimensionality to the existing cosmology.
tl;dr of the new standards seems to be that almost nothing makes the jump to 1-A without already establishing a High 1-B construct. The few things that could are very explicit that they generalise, like "no matter how many dimensions". Just being "beyond any dimensions", "source of dimensions", "concept of dimensions", etc. doesn't do more than a +1 over the existing cosmology. |
But even she is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe. As for why―――" [... Kiara explaining she learned how insignificant she is ...] 'As such, I remain here in this world. Small though it may be, I find far greater purpose within myself here than on the other side...' "Quite the silly story. As soon as she became able to sense the 'outside' of the world, she felt her own powerlessness more acutely than ever before. |
Humans think of God as a being who is all-knowing and all-powerful, but a demon is an existence that cannot be comprehended through human intelligence or knowledge. The concept of what a demon is lay within reach, but it is part of an abyss that is impossible to truly comprehend. |
Still cookedNot in this thread I am afraid. Just waiting for a conclusion on where Roa's statement puts the cosmology.
Let me guess, the Gods and Outer gods?Not in this thread I am afraid. Just waiting for a conclusion on where Roa's statement puts the cosmology.
Mmm… I never outright agreed. I even expressed minor skepticism albeit for different concerns than here, concerns which have been addressed by both you and Theoretical thankfully.Migue already agreed btw.
So....you agreed? Or not?Mmm… I never outright agreed. I even expressed minor skepticism albeit for different concerns than here, concerns which have been addressed by both you and Theoretical thankfully.
Aight.Although, with the info Shadow dropped and some other brought up concerns, I think I’ll wait for this discussion to brew a bit more before definitively saying if I agree or not here.Although I have no eval rights so it means **** all if I agree or not in the grand scheme of things.
BTW, Neco arc is apparently called the Avatar of the multiverseLet me guess, the Gods and Outer gods?
That's an assumption.But he is not speaking in-depth about the nature of something or claiming that he can fully conceive it, so this doesn't really follow. Also, it is not indicated that Roa acquired this knowledge himself; how it is acquired is not specified and could have come from many sources, for example Kiara could've easily told the Church about the cosmology
No? In fate extra ccc we fight one, Kiara doesn't seem to be beyond human comprehension to me. The argument is different because she doesn't even even exist in the outer universe you didn't even try to invalidate the actual source material suggesting that the outside of the universe is indeed beyond human comprehension. It was just an assumption +1 extra argument which is clearly contradicted by the source material.Furthermore, it is mention among the guidebooks that True Demons in Demonic Heavens are beyond human comprehension, which would make them outside the universe by the logic of the argument used
UnderstandableAlthough, with the info Shadow dropped and some other brought up concerns, I think I’ll wait for this discussion to brew a bit more before definitively saying if I agree or not here.
I already addressed this beforehand, when they mean outside of this world they clearly refer to dimension, as they say she become omnipotent in this dimension (either a reference to humanities texture or just 3 mathematical dimensions), gods are Higher Dimensional but don't exist outside of the universe they exist in the reverse side of the world. Her being said to be outside of this "world" is likely referring to humanities texture which is only 3D spatially with 1 temporal dimensions that's what "this dimension" denotes for anyways cause that's currently where Roa is at.Kiara makes a decision ('As such') to remain in the world, meaning that she had to option to leave it as a higher dimensional being.
Furthermore, Roa calls the Demonic Heavens the 'outside' of the world, not as part of it.
To be fair, there should be a cosmology blog
We already did kinda go over thatIf you need any explanations about the Outer Gods and the cosmology of the two universes (Our Universe and the Outer Universe) I can help.
The term universe is contextual based it could refer to the texture of humanity which was said to have only 3 vectors of space and 1 as a separate one hence 4D.
She obviously isn't beyond "the" the universe. The people who scale to it are Zeus and they started freaking out when Zeus was said to have the power to destroy so if wouldn't make sense for them to freak out when people like Kiara who are way below the scaling chain were to scale to that; I still question the validity of the Zeus claim tho.
This is pretty reasonable, but the hierarchy of higher dimensional beings can't apply to things outside of the universe, the outer universe was described as being beyond reasoning and how the laws of the universe are completely not applicable to it so presumably even the notion of higher dimensions.
This is why inhabitants of it like outer gods are also said to be above logic, can break logic and are said to be Incomprehensible even through Limitless wisdom
There are some interesting things like Dreamlands that exists as bridge between both Universes acting as non-physical space that connects themWe already did kinda go over that
I've said it a billion times in the past.To be fair, there should be a cosmology blog
In general this is just a summary and Agnaa was talking about a cosmology that is always growing dimensionally, if you read the rest of the thread you will see DT and Agnaa's comments about mathematical concepts and always growing dimensions or like that.Not in this thread I am afraid. Just waiting for a conclusion on where Roa's statement puts the cosmology.
Just pointing out that you seem to have misread the quote from Agnaa you brought up. "No matter how many dimensions" is given as an example of acceptable exceptions which are "very explicit that they generalise".
"No matter how many dimensions" is not among the statements that will be nerfed to cosmology + 1, which are mentioned afterward in a new sentence.
The quote with emphasis:
tl;dr of the new standards seems to be that almost nothing makes the jump to 1-A without already establishing a High 1-B construct. The few things that could are very explicit that they generalise, like "no matter how many dimensions". Just being "beyond any dimensions", "source of dimensions", "concept of dimensions", etc. doesn't do more than a +1 over the existing cosmology.
So my thoughts on the thread:
- There appears to be general agreement that the statement mentions the existence of infinite levels of transcendence.
- The controversial part is the claim that this endless hierarchy (including the Demonic Heavens) is part of the universe that Roa and humans experience.
1- The argument that Kiara is bound to the universe not by choice, but because higher dimensional beings are inherently bound.
This argument is weak. It is clearly indicated that she remain as part of the universe by choice:
But even she is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe.
As for why―――"
[... Kiara explaining she learned how insignificant she is ...]
'As such, I remain here in this world.
Small though it may be, I find far greater purpose within myself here than on the other side...'
"Quite the silly story.
As soon as she became able to sense the 'outside' of the world, she felt her own powerlessness more acutely than ever before.
Kiara makes a decision ('As such') to remain in the world, meaning that she had to option to leave it as a higher dimensional being.
Furthermore, Roa calls the Demonic Heavens the 'outside' of the world, not as part of it.
2- It is argued that Roa cannot speak of something outside of his comprehension, therefore what he is speaking of is part of the universe.
But he is not speaking in-depth about the nature of something or claiming that he can fully conceive it, so this doesn't really follow. Also, it is not indicated that Roa acquired this knowledge himself; how it is acquired is not specified and could have come from many sources, for example Kiara could've easily told the Church about the cosmology.
Furthermore, it is mention among the guidebooks that True Demons in Demonic Heavens are beyond human comprehension, which would make them outside the universe by the logic of the argument used:
Humans think of God as a being who is all-knowing and all-powerful, but a demon is an existence that cannot be comprehended through human intelligence or knowledge.
The concept of what a demon is lay within reach, but it is part of an abyss that is impossible to truly comprehend.
What does this mean? That there are multiverses within the textures?BTW, Neco arc is apparently called the Avatar of the multiverse
だがyouはアタシがその『マルチの証明』だと言う。『マルチの化身』とも。
Okay, but you said I was living proof for this multi-stuff. "The Avatar of the Multiverse" or something.
参りましたなあ。そこに気がつくとは、なかなかどうしてミスに置けないお方だ。
You sure got me good. Never thought someone would catch on. Never would've pegged you as being so clever.
(Neco-Arc - Melty Blood Type Lumina)
Considering this statement is SO vague and considering that piece of shit called "cosmology" within Nasuverse, this statement can mean literally anything related to the term "Multiverse"What does this mean? That there are multiverses within the textures?
Do you accept them existing at least? For the universe part, i can understand lack of explicit proofThe infinite dimensions do not necessarily need to apply to the universe.
High 1-B: High Hyperverse levelRoa claims that there's NO END to HUMAN PERCEPTION and NO END TO THE PATH TO OMNIPOTENCE. He then further makes it freakin' clear that NO MATTER HOW TRANSCENDENT SOMEONE BECOMES, THERE IS ALWAYS A HIGHER LEVEL.
Now the capitalized parts are the most critical parts of the scan.
Now, the OP already suspected some people would try pulling the "how do you know it was referring to higher dimensions or how does it tie in with a structure that exists in the verse" card and fortunately for them, the scan afterwards gave a very perfect example. It makes an example out of Kiara, who had higher dimensional senses, which ties in with "human perception having no ends" and how she was "omnipotent to 3D" which ties in with "omnipotence having no ends". But despite having does abilitities, she was still bound to the universe itself.
- NO END- simply means endless. That should be common knowledge.
- HUMAN PERCEPTION- simply means perception. How we perceive or sense things.
- PATH TO OMNIPOTENCE- Omnipotence means the ability to do anything. "Path" literally means the way or direction to something. In this context, Omnipotence is restricted to the levels of dimensions, which means someone with a Higher D has a higher level of omnipotence than someone with a lower D. And the levels of it are also ENDLESS as it says in the scan; NO END TO THE PATH TO OMNIPOTENCE.
- NO MATTER HOW TRANSCENDENT SOMEONE BECOMES, THERE IS ALWAYS A HIGHER LEVEL- This, this is literally what makes it 100% clear that it's an endless hierarchy because it explicitly states that no matter how "Transcendent" someone becomes, there would always be an higher level. That's an endless hierarchy right there.
That means the reason there's no end to omnipotence, and human perception, no matter how transcendent someone became was because the Universe itself housed endless amounts of higher D's which is why someone like Kiara was still bound to the universe. This means even if Kiara kept on transcending higher D's endlessly, she would STILL be bound to the universe as there is no end to transcendence and there would always be an higher level. So in order for her to successfully surpass the universe, she needs to be at least Low 1A. That is why the Universe is tiered at High 1B.
It ties in with the wiki's description of High 1B;