Nasuverse CRT: For the Upper Tiers.

[Deagonx]

My point about them not being spatiotemporal had nothing to do with the rating. It rebuts your basis for insisting that it would apply to the universe itself.

 

[Tdjwo]

My point about them not being spatiotemporal had nothing to do with the rating. It rebuts your basis for insisting that it would apply to the universe itself.

Oh now, it has nothing to do with the rating? I thought you said it's just a layer of existence? If it doesn't apply to the universe, can you kindly tell me where it would apply to because as lots of people have pointed out earlier, time and space as a whole doesn't exist outside the universe. The Throne of Heroes is an evidence for that. It lacks space and time outside the universe. The Ultimate Gate also proves this by being tied to and beyond the six doors, which represents all dimensions in the universe. So tell me how in the world the High 1B statement would apply to something else if it doesn't apply to the universe.

 

[Deagonx]

If it doesn't apply to the universe, can you kindly tell me where it would apply to because as lots of people have pointed out earlier, time and space as a whole doesn't exist outside the universe. The Throne of Heroes is an evidence for that. It lacks space and time outside the universe. The Ultimate Gate also proves this by being tied to and beyond the six doors, which represents all dimensions in the universe

The absence of space and time outside the universe doesn't mean these statements apply to the universe, because as established, the word dimension in OPs scans doesn't refer to spatial dimensions. Just layers of existence.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Oh now, it has nothing to do with the rating? I thought you said it's just a layer of existence? If it doesn't apply to the universe, can you kindly tell me where it would apply to because as lots of people have pointed out earlier, time and space as a whole doesn't exist outside the universe. The Throne of Heroes is an evidence for that. It lacks space and time outside the universe. The Ultimate Gate also proves this by being tied to and beyond the six doors, which represents all dimensions in the universe. So tell me how in the world the High 1B statement would apply to something else if it doesn't apply to the universe.

You mean the six doors that represent normal 3 dimensional movement?

 

[Deagonx]

You mean the six doors that represent normal 3 dimensional movement?

No you don't understand! Up and down are two different spatial dimensions!!

 

[Tdjwo]

The absence of space and time outside the universe doesn't mean these statements apply to the universe, because as established, the word dimension in OPs scans doesn't refer to spatial dimensions. Just layers of existence.

Not only is it completely false that it's referring to just "layers of existence" but it's also irrelevant because the term "layer of existence can also be used to refer to higher dimensions as I just showed you via this site stating that;

High 1-B: High Hyperverse level​

Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures whose size is equivalent to a countably infinite number of qualitative sizes above a universal model, usually represented in fiction by endless hierarchies of layers of existence, each succeeding one completely trivializing the previous into insignificance, or more generally a space with countably infinite dimensions.

If the statement doesn't apply to the universe, then it can't apply to anything else or beyond the universe since it's established that space and time doesn't exist outside the universe. The six doors already represents all space and time

...and the ultimate gate exists encompasses all of time and space aka six doors

while existing beyond the doors/universe

 

[Tdjwo]

You mean the six doors that represent normal 3 dimensional movement?

No way!!! Bro just said six doors represents 3 d movement

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Not only is it completely false that it's referring to just "layers of existence" but it's also irrelevant because the term "layer of existence can also be used to refer to higher dimensions as I just showed you via this site stating that;

If the statement doesn't apply to the universe, then it can't apply to anything else or beyond the universe since it's established that space and time doesn't exist outside the universe. The six doors already represents all space and time

...and the ultimate gate exists encompasses all of time and space aka six doors

while existing beyond the doors/universe

Nothing here asserts that nothing spatial can exist outside of the universe.

 

[Deagonx]

Not only is it completely false that it's referring to just "layers of existence" but it's also irrelevant because the term "layer of existence can also be used to refer to higher dimensions as I just showed you via this site stating that;

Like I said, my point about them not being spatial isn't addressing the tiering. I already explained this.

If the statement doesn't apply to the universe, then it can't apply to anything else or beyond the universe since it's established that space and time doesn't exist outside the universe

It doesn't matter if space and time don't exist outside the universe, the word "dimension" in OPs scans isn't spatial or temporal.

 

[Deagonx]

Bro just said six doors represents 3 d movement

Incredulity isn't an argument. The six doors are both directions of the three typical spatial dimensions.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

It doesn't matter if space and time don't exist outside the universe, the word "dimension" in OPs scans isn't spatial or temporal.

To be fair here it does use "次元" which typically refers to spatial dimensions especially when paired with "higher".

 

[Tdjwo]

Nothing here asserts that nothing spatial can exist outside of the universe.

I already proved that via the Throne being dimensionless and existing outside the universe. The Outer god scans is to prove that the six doors are the universe itself which contains all possible space and time and the Ultimate Gate exists beyond it meaning it doesn't apply to dimensions anymore. In other words, the High 1B statement applies to the six doors at most. Anything beyond the doors lack space and time.

 

[Deagonx]

Ultimate Gate exists beyond it meaning it doesn't apply to dimensions anymore

Spatial dimensions. Which the scans aren't referring to. So this is a moot objection.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I already proved that via the Throne being dimensionless and existing outside the universe. The Outer god scans is to prove that the six doors are the universe itself which contains all possible space and time and the Ultimate Gate exists beyond it meaning it doesn't apply to dimensions anymore. In other words, the High 1B statement applies to the six doors at most. Anything beyond the doors lack space and time.

This doesn't prove anything it's more of a proof by example fallacy with the throne example and the gates quite literally dont represent all possible spaces but instead every space within the universe.

 

[Tdjwo]

Like I said, my point about them not being spatial isn't addressing the tiering. I already explained this.

You didn't explain anything. You keep saying the High 1B statement doesn't apply to the universe yet you constantly fail to tell me where it would apply to. Outside the universe? The same place time and space becomes non-existent? If you arent willing to tell me where the statement applies to, then we are just arguing for absolutely no reason.

It doesn't matter if space and time don't exist outside the universe, the word "dimension" in OPs scans isn't spatial or temporal.

Deagonx, if there's a statement that claims a structure houses all possible dimensions, and then, another structure is stated to be beyond even that structure, what does it mean? Please tell me, what does that mean?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Deagonx, if there's a statement that claims a structure houses all possible dimensions, and then, another structure is stated to be beyond even that structure, what does it mean? Please tell me, what does that mean?

You keep using a mistranslation in order to prove your points when you have been repeatedly told that it was a mistranslation and it was even accepted a mistranslation and changed in this thread. "all possible dimensions" and something like "all possible things" are not present within the raws.

 

[Deagonx]

You keep saying the High 1B statement doesn't apply to the universe yet you constantly fail to tell me where it would apply to

It's not my job to provide an alternative. I'm just pointing out the fact that you've failed to provide sufficient evidence connecting it to the universe.

The same place time and space becomes non-existent?

Again, irrelevant, the scans in the OP aren't about spatial dimensions.

 

[KingNanaya]

To be fair here it does use "次元" which typically refers to spatial dimensions especially when paired with "higher".

this is a good point that was brought up

 

[Tam0n3n]

Again, irrelevant, the scans in the OP aren't about spatial dimensions.

What is it then? Because 次元 is the same kanji used for mathematical dimensions.

次元 - Wikipedia

ja.wikipedia.org

Here's another example with 次元 being used:

In Extraverse, Kiara reached a state close to what we call "True Demon". True Demons are higher dimensional life-forms

Though the classifications of "Demons" and "Fiends" do exist, their manner of existence is in essence indistinguishable from that of a higher-order lifeform (高次元生命体, kou-jigen seimeitai?, lit. "higher-dimension lifeform") that inhabits a different sphere of civilization (異なる文明圏, koto-naru bunmei-ken?) upon a different planet (異なる惑星, koto-naru wakusei?).

they are even compared to Outer Gods, who are clearly known for being higher spatial dimensional lifeforms.

Their existences would approximate to that of the cosmic horrors (邪神, jashin?, lit. "evil god") of a certain fictitious Mythos popular in the 20th century.

 

[Tdjwo]

You keep using a mistranslation in order to prove your points when you have been repeatedly told that it was a mistranslation and it was even accepted a mistranslation and changed in this thread. "all possible dimensions" and something like "all possible things" are not present within the raws.

Idk what you are trying to say. You literally said it doesn't change anything, and Yog still exists beyond every space so if I use the "mistanslated" scan, what exactly would it change? The gate still exists beyond all space and time.

This doesn't prove anything it's more of a proof by example fallacy with the throne example and the gates quite literally dont represent all possible spaces but instead every space within the universe.

I really think you guys are messing with me on purpose because you guys can't be real. Let's try this one more time.

The High 1B statement exists. We can all accept that. Now, it has to exist somewhere right? Is it within the universe? Or outside the Universe. You guys refused to pick within the universe despite Roa claiming it's impossible to reach past the bounds of the universe even if you trascend into higher D's endlessly. That means you think the statement applies outside the universe. Now I'm asking you guys to give reasons why the statement applies to outside the universe and both you and Deagon are failing so badly to do that.

Space and time CANNOT EXIST outside the Universe. Think properly about it. The six doors is explicitly stated to represent all space and time and the Ultimate Gate is connected to all space and time in the universe

and exists beyond it

So if you have a statement where a structure exists beyond all the space and time of the universe, then it means anything beyond or within it can't have High 1B statements applied to it. Which brings us to the Throne of Heroes that also beyond the universe while also lacking space and time

And the Root is pretty much self-explainable.

So as we can see, all the structures that exists outside the universe lack dimensions which means the High 1B statement CANNOT apply outside the universe. It only applies within the universe. If you can show me any structure that contains space and time and exists outside the universe, show me. If you can't but you somehow still disagree, then y'all are buggin so badly.

 

[Tdjwo]

this is a good point that was brought up

Tell that to Deagonx who thinks the scan doesn't imply spatial dimensions.

 

[KingNanaya]

Tell that to Deagonx who thinks the scan doesn't imply spatial dimensions.

I mean, he liked my comment, so....

 

[Tdjwo]

I mean, he liked my comment, so....

And he still disagrees?

 

[KingNanaya]

And he still disagrees?

we'll see

 

[Deagonx]

Executor_N0 has addressed this specific Kanji before:

Yes, "次元" (Jigen) is the conventional word used in Japanese for dimension.

However, just for general context, it has the same amount of nuance as it does in English. You have times when it's used to describe parallel universes or pocket dimensions, other times that it's just used to refer to something that is "stronger than you", but not literal dimensional transcendence, and so on. But in the general context of the scenes shown here, these moments seem to clearly refer to spatial dimensions/levels of existence. (This part isn't about Nasuverse)

So, no, that kanji is not evidence pro se that the type of dimensions being referring to are spatial.

 

[KingNanaya]

But in the general context of the scenes shown here, these moments seem to clearly refer to spatial dimensions/levels of existence.

I see this as an absolute win. now we need to see if we can find an agreement on where it applies to

 

[Deagonx]

I see this as an absolute win. now we need to see if we can find an agreement on where it applies to

That was about Saint Seiya, not Nasuverse. I'm quoting him explaining that Kanji in a different discussion. He says something similar:

Also, since I have a bit of space here, this happens with a lot of words and I can't help but notice how some people are starting even more to look into dictionaries to see something without taking some time to look at the greater picture, there are some meanings for words that aren't even catalogued in dictonaries, even more in relation to animes and japanese fiction, that you can really only see what is some of the other meanings for them if you look for a lot of its usage to see a pattern so you can finally understand "so this is a made-up meaning that is used a lot in fictions but not recognized in formal dictionaries yet" (Such as the use of Jigen (次元), that I saw people thinking it can only be used when talking about mathematical dimensions, or even Kūkan (空間), that although it's mostly recognized as just meaning "Space" is also vastly used to refer to what we normally call pocket dimensions or even just alternate dimensions/universes).

Jigen is a word for spatial dimensions, yet it can still be used simply for what we consider as parallel dimensions, pocket dimensions, could even just be used as a way to say something is in a different level of power, knowledge, and so on.

 

[Excaliburhuman]

So why are we assuming that the use of 次元 here does not refer to spatial dimensions if that is the conventional use for it?

 

[Tdjwo]

So why are we assuming that the use of 次元 here does not refer to spatial dimensions if that is the conventional use for it?

God bless you bruh. That's literally what I've been saying

 

[KingNanaya]

That was about Saint Seiya, not Nasuverse. I'm quoting him explaining that Kanji in a different discussion. He says something similar:

so basically, it's context dependent? I feel like there's enough context to assume it's referring to spatial dimensions. and again, we still just need to lock down where we think it applies. in the end, I still win

 

[Tdjwo]

Deagonx running away from the main topic so badly. I cant stop laughing Like bruh, where does the high 1B statement apply to if it's not in the universe? This is the 1050th time everyone combined has asked you. Insulting me on discord wont help you escape this question lmao.

 

[KingNanaya]

Like bruh, where does the high 1B statement apply to if it's not in the universe?

that's what we gotta agree on lil bro

Insulting me on discord wont help you escape this question lmao.

no one is doing that

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

There's no specific rule that states "You can allow admins to reply to a comment after a very long time when it comes to tiering revision but you cant allow them to do the same in a regular crt."

Technically, there is. The 2 week "limit" for staff to participate is for "verse-specific threads"

For verse-specific threads, if the only opposing party does not reply for over 2 weeks without any notice or known/suspected extenuating circumstances, then the moderators should try to get the thread to completion without them, assuming that they'd probably not reply. However, their points should not be discarded, and this should not be treated as that user conceding. Their arguments and votes should be kept in mind while the thread goes on and anybody else is free to argue in their stead.

Here

 

[Deagonx]

Deagonx running away from the main topic so badly. I cant stop laughing Like bruh, where does the high 1B statement apply to if it's not in the universe? This is the 1050th time everyone combined has asked you.

I already responded to this.

It's not my job to provide an alternative. I'm just pointing out the fact that you've failed to provide sufficient evidence connecting it to the universe.

You haven't met the burden of proof for your claim.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. This thread was already reject 4-0 and it's now devolved into nothing but drama and circular arguments. I'm closing this as we have reached a unanimous consensus against upgrading the universe on this basis.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

alright, funny derail and all, but deleted, let's get back on track

Okay. This thread was already reject 4-0 and it's now devolved into nothing but drama and circular arguments. I'm closing this as we have reached a unanimous consensus against upgrading the universe on this basis.

I've reopened the thread, as I absolutely maintain we wait at least a bit. Firestorm also wanted to reevaluate, and the conversation with Shadow hasn't ended as well.

 

[Deagonx]

I'll message firestorm then

 

[Firestorm808]

alright, funny derail and all, but deleted, let's get back on track


I've reopened the thread, as I absolutely maintain we wait at least a bit. Firestorm also wanted to reevaluate, and the conversation with Shadow hasn't ended as well.

I haven't looked at the new stuff, but I don't think it applies to the universe.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I haven't looked at the new stuff, but I don't think it applies to the universe.

In short: the new stuff relates to the "six doors" of the Yog-Sothoth that reaches across all of time and space that should also reach across spatiotemporal structure of High 1-B. "Six doors" considered to be the Universe itself so that should make High 1-B structure a part of the Universe

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I haven't looked at the new stuff, but I don't think it applies to the universe.

I see. Then I suppose a new thread should be made indeed to discuss the six doors.

@MrUnderlord would you make such a thread and link it here? A summary to be provided would be very useful indeed.

After that, we can close this thread.