Nasuverse CRT: For the Upper Tiers.

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Do you accept them existing at least? For the universe part, i can understand lack of explicit proof

I do in fact agree with High 1-B existing, just not necessarily applying to the universe.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I do in fact agree with High 1-B existing, just not necessarily applying to the universe.

Then the good question is: where does this High 1-B exists? Considering that Outer Universe doesn't affected by it and exists beyond them. NOTE: this structures can exist beyond the Tsukihime world, but could still exist in the Universe as Parallel Worlds, for example.
EDIT: need to understand that term "Our Universe" is really huge and covers almost everything that was shown in FGO, Fate and Tsukihime series. So, "Our Universe" =\= one singular 3-D space-time continuum.

 

[1Nairove]

I do in fact agree with High 1-B existing, just not necessarily applying to the universe.

If it won't scale to the universe, what will it scale to? so I don't want to be misunderstood here, but this infinite hierarchy does not come from the sky, so if you say it can be scaled to root or ryo, it contradicts this story. So if you agree that High 1-B infinity exists, you must agree that it is connected with the universe

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So if you agree that High 1-B infinity exists, you must agree that it is connected with the universe

Not really.

 

[1Nairove]

Not really.

I'm curious about what's going through your mind, so what can these High 1-B hierarchies and dimensions scale to instead of the universe?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

In general this is just a summary and Agnaa was talking about a cosmology that is always growing dimensionally, if you read the rest of the thread you will see DT and Agnaa's comments about mathematical concepts and always growing dimensions or like that.

So is his summary (which might very well be used as basis for the revision) inaccurate?

I went through the thread, and there doesn't seem to be discussion on a perpetually growing dimensionality. The discussion mainly focused on evaluating four statements:

1. "Beyond any dimensions"
2. "Source of Dimensions"
3. "No matter how many Dimensions"
4. "No matter how high is the plane of existence"

They discussed whether mathematical concepts should be included within those statements if they are not explicitly mentioned. But if they are not explicitly mentioned, the general conclusion would be:
1, 2, and 4 would be the shown cosmology + 1. Statement 3 is being debated to be either upper-end 1-B, High 1-B, Low 1-A, or 1-A.

Are there any specific posts from Agnaa or DT which you recommend we review?

I already addressed this beforehand, when they mean outside of this world they clearly refer to dimension, as they say she become omnipotent in this dimension (either a reference to humanities texture or just 3 mathematical dimensions), gods are Higher Dimensional but don't exist outside of the universe they exist in the reverse side of the world. Her being said to be outside of this "world" is likely referring to humanities texture which is only 3D spatially with 1 temporal dimensions that's what "this dimension" denotes for anyways cause that's currently where Roa is at.

The divine spirits and gods also have similar statements of existing outside of human history and watching over it in higher dimensions, now is ascending into a singular higher dimension somehow now enough to be beyond the universe in the Nasuverse now?

The statement of true demons being beyond the universe shouldn't even be used. This different ways to be beyond the universe, non of the true demons that have showed up live up to that hype.

They get defeated by mythological Mystic Code amped servants, that's the lowest in the scaling chain and at best is 8D, if they were truly outside/beyond of the universe I don't see why they'd lose to characters that are not beyond the universe and only have scaling for higher dimensions which exist as a subset of the universe (6D/8D).

One way for a being to be depicted to be beyond the universe is either through range/attack potency/existence atleast within the context of the nasuverse.

1. Ort is clearly shown to be beyond the universe himself. His spiders can reach to the throne of heroes which exist outside and beyond the universe even when he himself exists in the universe.
2. Outer gods scale beyond the universe via existence, ap and even range. They exist beyond and outside of it, can interact with the throne to forcibly summon servants and they are repeatedly said to be beyond comprehension by the standards of the laws of the universe not just knowledge of the characters (this is attributed to their party when da Vinci says if know is power the unknown is more powerful.
3. Arc, she has reached into the akashic records once I suppose. Which the akashic records encompasses reality in its totality. However it was hax but this is just a depiction of range.

True demons have nothing like this outside of one hype statement, true demon Kiara herself has never had any showing like this or any other supporting statements to go by her

• Being beyond human comprehension (it's already contradicted)
• Her being beyond the universe.
• There's also this thing of outer gods powers driving to people into madness as a part of them being beyond human comprehension, they just have a better basis and consistency. So to use another character who lacks that doesn't invalidate how this should be interpreted.

Your explanation doesn't work, as the story provided by Roa explains why Kiara is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe. This is what outside of the world means.

We are talking about Demons in the Demonic Heavens; it's location is unspecified as far as I know. Also, if gods exist in the Reverse Side of the World, then they exist outside and beyond the universe known by humanity; outside the Surface Texture. Likewise, if the Demon Heavens is outside the Human Texture then it can be described to be outside the universe, as that is the only universe humans are familiar with.

Who said True Demons (and those higher dimensional beings beyond the human understanding of the universe) have a minimum power level besides being higher dimensional? They could be 4D or 5D; they'd be low-ranked, but True Demons nonetheless. In fact let me give you a counter example:
The Horrors Gilles summons in Fate/Zero are not higher dimensional, yet they are stated to come from a "realm that is outside this world" and an other dimension, and gazing at the abyss from which they come from is stated to cause insanity. They are beyond the universe by all means, but this doesn't imply a particular power level.

Also, True Demons are stated to be similar to Outer Gods, and per Nasu's statement Primordial Demons are among the most powerful beings in the verse.

The existence of a True Demon is close to that of the evil gods from a certain creation mythology that was popular in the twentieth century.

That's an assumption.

In two ways.
1. Roa could've been told.
2. Kiara knows about the cosmology.

Kiara has never been show to know about the outer universe atleast if we go by fgo, fate extra ccc and even in tsukihime the remake at all. It cannot follow that Kiara told the Church and by extension Roa knew about the cosmology including the outer universe. The first parts of the messages are not really that important to respond to.

No. That is a claim that your position is a unsupported assumption as evidenced by the existence of plausible alternative.

How about we go by Tsukihime where the relevant statement comes from?

Though I had tried to gain true sight my whole life, what I finally beheld was not merely the truth of the world, but just how minuscule I was within it. 'Fortune may have allowed me to ascend to the seat of the demonic heavens to bring salvation upon all life, yet there I was naught but an insignificant initiate. As soon as she became able to sense the 'outside' of the world, she felt her own powerlessness more acutely than ever before.

She ascended into the Demonic Heavens, gained insight about the outside of the world. How does this translate to "has never been shown to know"? She would be an expert on that matter compared to most Church people and Magi.

And if you can't demonstrate that Roa made the discovery himself, then yes it is possible that he learned it from someone else who acquired this knowledge. I am not really making any complicated claim; only a basic deduction whether something is possible or impossible.

And I do consider the first part of the message to be important and something that should be responded to. It pertains that your argument doesn't follow nor make sense with a brief explanation for why, and therefore we shouldn't take the conclusion you presented. Any response to it?

No? In fate extra ccc we fight one, Kiara doesn't seem to be beyond human comprehension to me. The argument is different because she doesn't even even exist in the outer universe you didn't even try to invalidate the actual source material suggesting that the outside of the universe is indeed beyond human comprehension. It was just an assumption +1 extra argument which is clearly contradicted by the source material.

Kiara who was a true demon Kiara was described by hakuno various times after her Ascension, and not just by her but by other characters various times. She's not beyond human comprehension.

Outer Gods who exist in the outer universe are, they are consistently portrayed to be as such and thus far I have no seen a contradiction as opposed to Kiara.

The Outer Gods has been described to be of flesh and blood, and said to be huge and gross in appearance. Isn't this a description, and does this refute that they are beyond human comprehension?

Da Vinci And seven: Regardless of what they look like, they're not immortal metaphysical or conceptual beings. They're still flesh and blood creatures with life spans just as finite as ours.

The Machine Gods are from outside the universe, and they don't follow its logic. But do they seem beyond human comprehension to you?

Not everyone follows your interpretation on what counts as beyond comprehension, so you need to provide something persuasive for me to accept it.

 

[Georredannea15]

So is his summary (which might very well be used as basis for the revision) inaccurate?

I went through the thread, and there doesn't seem to be discussion on a perpetually growing dimensionality. The discussion mainly focused on evaluating four statements:

1. "Beyond any dimensions"
2. "Source of Dimensions"
3. "No matter how many Dimensions"
4. "No matter how high is the plane of existence"

They discussed whether mathematical concepts should be included within those statements if they are not explicitly mentioned. But if they are not explicitly mentioned, the general conclusion would be:
1, 2, and 4 would be the shown cosmology + 1. Statement 3 is being debated to be either upper-end 1-B, High 1-B, Low 1-A, or 1-A.

Are there any specific posts from Agnaa or DT which you recommend we review?

Agnaa disagrees that 3 and 4 should be 1-A, Low 1-A or H1B on their own, and in fact DT seems like agrees with him. But of course it is best to wait for them.

Also these two statements refer to growing cosmologies.

 

[Tdjwo]

Are there any specific posts from Agnaa or DT which you recommend we review?


Your explanation doesn't work, as the story provided by Roa explains why Kiara is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe. This is what outside of the world means.

We are talking about Demons in the Demonic Heavens; it's location is unspecified as far as I know. Also, if gods exist in the Reverse Side of the World, then they exist outside and beyond the universe known by humanity; outside the Surface Texture. Likewise, if the Demon Heavens is outside the Human Texture then it can be described to be outside the universe, as that is the only universe humans are familiar with.

Who said True Demons (and those higher dimensional beings beyond the human understanding of the universe) have a minimum power level besides being higher dimensional? They could be 4D or 5D; they'd be low-ranked, but True Demons nonetheless. In fact let me give you a counter example:
The Horrors Gilles summons in Fate/Zero are not higher dimensional, yet they are stated to come from a "realm that is outside this world" and an other dimension, and gazing at the abyss from which they come from is stated to cause insanity. They are beyond the universe by all means, but this doesn't imply a particular power level.

Also, True Demons are stated to be similar to Outer Gods, and per Nasu's statement Primordial Demons are among the most powerful beings in the verse.

The existence of a True Demon is close to that of the evil gods from a certain creation mythology that was popular in the twentieth century.

No. That is a claim that your position is a unsupported assumption as evidenced by the existence of plausible alternative.

How about we go by Tsukihime where the relevant statement comes from?

Though I had tried to gain true sight my whole life, what I finally beheld was not merely the truth of the world, but just how minuscule I was within it. 'Fortune may have allowed me to ascend to the seat of the demonic heavens to bring salvation upon all life, yet there I was naught but an insignificant initiate. As soon as she became able to sense the 'outside' of the world, she felt her own powerlessness more acutely than ever before.

She ascended into the Demonic Heavens, gained insight about the outside of the world. How does this translate to "has never been shown to know"? She would be an expert on that matter compared to most Church people and Magi.

And if you can't demonstrate that Roa made the discovery himself, then yes it is possible that he learned it from someone else who acquired this knowledge. I am not really making any complicated claim; only a basic deduction whether something is possible or impossible.

And I do consider the first part of the message to be important and something that should be responded to. It pertains that your argument doesn't follow nor make sense with a brief explanation for why, and therefore we shouldn't take the conclusion you presented. Any response to it?


The Outer Gods has been described to be of flesh and blood, and said to be huge and gross in appearance. Isn't this a description, and does this refute that they are beyond human comprehension?

Da Vinci And seven: Regardless of what they look like, they're not immortal metaphysical or conceptual beings. They're still flesh and blood creatures with life spans just as finite as ours.

The Machine Gods are from outside the universe, and they don't follow its logic. But do they seem beyond human comprehension to you?

Not everyone follows your interpretation on what counts as beyond comprehension, so you need to provide something persuasive for me to accept it.

Wait are you implying the High 1B statement applies outside the universe? You know that makes no sense right? Dimensions don't exist outside the universe.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Wait are you implying the High 1B statement applies outside the universe? You know that makes no sense right? Dimensions don't exist outside the universe.

It's referring to higher dimensions as in higher planes or actual places not the amount of dimensional spaces the universe has.....

 

[Tdjwo]

It's referring to higher dimensions as in higher planes or actual places not the amount of dimensional spaces the universe has.....

Dude what? That makes no sense. It specifically mentioned transcendence and likened it to higher d senses. Where did they get "actual places" from?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Agnaa disagrees that 3 and 4 should be 1-A, Low 1-A or H1B on their own, and in fact DT seems like agrees with him. But of course it is best to wait for them.

Also these two statements refer to growing cosmologies.

3 can be 1-A depending on the context based on more recent posts:

In the part about 3.

As you can see, he doesn't talk about it being capped to something in the verse. He's just unsure if it should go to 1-B, Low 1-A, or 1-A (depending on the statement). And iirc, he eventually settled on 1-A working for some statements (that part about it just being 1-B was before his statement about it landing at Low 1-A or 1-A).

But at the end of it, it is not a matter of 'shown cosmology +1'.

Wait are you implying the High 1B statement applies outside the universe? You know that makes no sense right? Dimensions don't exist outside the universe.

Outside Nasuverse Earth and its textures/universes? Maybe. I don't see a strong argument to affirm the opposite.
Outside the universe outside of Nasuverse textures? Who knows.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Dude what? That makes no sense. It specifically mentioned transcendence and likened it to higher d senses. Where did they get "actual places" from?

Dunno but Shadow seems to be making the most sense and even gave context that yes it is indeed referring to higher dimensional places.

 

[Tdjwo]

Outside Nasuverse Earth and its textures/universes? Maybe. I don't see a strong argument to affirm the opposite.
Outside the universe outside of Nasuverse textures? Who knows.

I literally don't get what you're saying. Are you saying the textures are High 1B? Like which "universe" do you think is High 1B?

 

[Tdjwo]

Dunno but Shadow seems to be making the most sense and even gave context that yes it is indeed referring to higher dimensional places.

I deadass don't know what both of you are talking about? Do you think the real universe is High 1B? Or do you think the textures are High 1B?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I deadass don't know what both of you are talking about? Do you think the real universe is High 1B? Or do you think the textures are High 1B?

Not enough info to determine either so better bet is outside of the real universe .

 

[Tdjwo]

Not enough info to determine either so better bet is outside of the real universe .

How can there be dimensions outside the universe? Let's mention all the entities or structures that exists outside the universe.

1. Throne if Heroes: explicitly states to contain no bounds of space and time and exists outside the universe.

2. Ultimate Gate: Logically should be beyond the Throne.

3. Sut-Typhon: Stated to be beyond the ultimate gate where light can never reach.

4. The Root & [ ]: Obviously can't have dimensions in it or close to it.

All these structures and entities aren't related to dimensions which makes sense because they already transcend and exist outside the universe which is High 1B.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

How can there be dimensions outside the universe? Let's mention all the entities or structures that exists outside the universe.

1. Throne if Heroes: explicitly states to contain no bounds of space and time and exists outside the universe.

2. Ultimate Gate: Logically should be beyond the Throne.

3. Sut-Typhon: Stated to be beyond the ultimate gate where light can never reach.

4. The Root & [ ]: Obviously can't have dimensions in it or close to it.

All these structures and entities aren't related to dimensions which makes sense because they already transcend and exist outside the universe which is High 1B.

You can be outside something without transcending in that way. Also this doesn't prove that nothing dimensioned can exist outside.

 

[Georredannea15]

3 can be 1-A depending on the context based on more recent posts:


But at the end of it, it is not a matter of 'shown cosmology +1'.

So, that it is actually H1-B with more wording and context but unless it is not, it is only +1 dimension, but let's wait for them anyway.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

You can be outside something without transcending in that way. Also this doesn't prove that nothing dimensioned can exist outside.

It's like saying "All apples I have ever seen are granny smith apples so there must only be granny smith apples". There is no clear restriction where you can assert nothing dimensioned can exist outside.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I literally don't get what you're saying. Are you saying the textures are High 1B? Like which "universe" do you think is High 1B?

I am saying it hasn't been demonstrated that any of the Earth textures are High 1-B. The High 1-B structure exists somewhere, but besides scaling to the Root, the mere existence of the structure doesn't necessarily scale to any known character.

 

[Tdjwo]

You can be outside something without transcending in that way. Also this doesn't prove that nothing dimensioned can exist outside.

The Throne of Heroes is literally dimensionless while existing outside the universe. Thr universe is literally what Roa was referring to when he implied that High 1B statement.

I am saying it hasn't been demonstrated that any of the Earth textures are High 1-B. The High 1-B structure exists somewhere, but besides scaling to the Root, the mere existence of the structure doesn't necessarily scale to any known character.

This is literally baseless

 

[Regidian]

I am saying it hasn't been demonstrated that any of the Earth textures are High 1-B. The High 1-B structure exists somewhere, but besides scaling to the Root, the mere existence of the structure doesn't necessarily scale to any known character.

The perfect kingprotea who had no curse and unlimited time to have infinite of infinity grown be always active could possibly atain this.

 

[Regidian]

This is literally baseless

Not really, Roa tell that this structure exist, their universe is part of the structure not the whole one.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The perfect kingprotea who had no curse and unlimited time to have infinite of infinity grown be always active could possibly atain this.

seems a little too vague for a rating tbh

 

[Tdjwo]

Not really, Roa tell that this structure exist, their universe is part of the structure not the whole one.

What is the structure then? Roa literally calls it "this universe"

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Your explanation doesn't work, as the story provided by Roa explains why Kiara is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe. This is what outside of the world means.

Already addressed this argument beforehand it's just a reiteration of what he said:

She was never bound by it because she chooses to be? She was bound by it from the beginning, she was never a higher dimensional being she only gained higher dimensional sense, just like how BB isn't physically higher dimensional but her mind is.

Nothing in the translation even remotely says she was physically higher dimensional outside of her senses.

We have a full stop after this.


As for why isn't as for why she was bound to the universe. It's roa going back to demonstrate how there's always one level higher because he said that beforehand gave an example of such being ascending even tho it was only with her senses, then returned to explain why the analogy is relevant.

Then he does so by explaining even after with her higher dimensional senses, she was miniscule in higher dimensions especially when it was genuine higher dimensional beings down to their existence not just senses.



"I had tried to gain true sight my whole life (literally her just referring to the senses)."

"What I finally beheld was not merely the truth of thr world, but just how miniscule I was within it."

Why would she be miniscule in such a world when she herself is higher dimensional? Idk maybe because she's not physically a higher dimensional being just a being who gained higher dimensional senses. Like how it's reiterated multiple times even in that translation.

Anymore issues?

This is so odd but whatever, I guess it makes sense to use fgo Kiara for a totally different timeline of Kiara? Do you think fgo Kiara joined the burial agency? No.

They are not hyper-literally the same being so using her fgo version is weird.

She even goes by the name Kiara Kisshouin, Chaos who's a dead apostle in tsukihime isn't in the fate worlds.

I don't understand how you thought patiently and decided to just use fgo material on material that's clearly different even with how the events played out to fgo. I don't know if this is intentionally being disingenuous or not but whatever.


Please read your translation, it says almighty in ours after mentioning higher dimensions, almighty in lower dimensions/ours not the universe.

Via her senses we know, you don't have to reiterate that. Yes she ascended yes she did duh? It appears just higher dimensional senses alone is enough to make one superior to lower dimensions even when they are physically not higher dimensional that's the point. She regards her higher dimensional senses as a form of ascendence you've denounced little to nothing. It's just doing your best to play with semantics and take the statements out of context.

Nothing you said suffices such a conclusion, using sources that don't correlate to this context doesn't do a good job too.

Congrats, that's the point They are Higher than her because she just has higher dimensional senses.

Doesn't denounce anything, I already explained the context beforehand she disregarded her senses to return to her normal life.

Sooo?

This doesn't even make sense to me, rephrase for me.

The definition of theoretical must've changed in these past few years.


Yes, nobody does
I'll prove that by

Lmfaoo

I'm so lost genuinely lmao, so how exactly how does posting statements of her using the term ascending suppose to support her being higher dimensional, using the fgo stuff is so disingenuous and is already dismissable.

She ascended via her senses, everything higher dimensional stuff she references senses, nothing and nowhere does it say she's physically higher dimensional.

You practically just ignore the actual statements to nitpick words like "Ascension" and went on to infer how it doesn't make sense for her to not be higher dimensional via more hypothesis rather than what's in the scan.

OH Ye forgot about this, yeah likened to them via her senses. We know like how she says senses over and over again and you ignore that.

Also ignored how I say it doesn't make narrative sense for it to refer to the outside of the universe

Just because the Inverse chain scaling doesn't apply how you want it to, or doesn't work how you'd see fit for it to work doesn't falsify it.

Already addressed this.

We are talking about Demons in the Demonic Heavens; it's location is unspecified as far as I know. Also, if gods exist in the Reverse Side of the World, then they exist outside

There's a difference between existing beyond the texture of humanity and existing beyond the universe, the term universe is used interchangeably with the term textures.

Outer Gods and the Outer Universe is what I'm saying is impossible for this hierarchy to exist on with our current understanding of how it works in the Nasuverse.

So I'm confused on how this is relevant, either way the unspecified location doesn't matter. True demons are comprehensible and so are God's and so is the reverse side of the world.

Likewise, if the Demon Heavens is outside the Human Texture then it can be described to be outside the universe, as that is the only universe humans are familiar with.

Cool, nobody is talking about being outside the texture of humanity tho lmao.

I specified outer universe, that's outside the universe not textures "the universe". I even emphasized "the universe" many times and made it synonymous with "outer universe" which is not only outside of the textures but "the universe".

Who said True Demons (and those higher dimensional beings beyond the human understanding of the universe) have a minimum power level besides being higher dimensional?

Outer Gods do not have minimum power. They are one of the strongest Inverse and the only known inhabitants of the outer universe.

I never said anything about being beyond the texture of humanity, that's not synonymous with being beyond human understanding of the universe. I never even said they are beyond human understanding of the universe.


You've strawmanned me like 3+ times rn.

However outside of it its hard to discern such things existing because laws of physics usually don't apply outside of the universe and is regarded as beyond reasoning functioning under laws completely different from "the universe".

even one of the statements say everything about the laws of the universe including the known chain hierarchy of dimensions in the universe cannot be applied to the outer universe/outside of the universe.

Even says the universe is the world of intellect and outside is the opposite of that which supports the prior statements of it being beyond reasoning or whatnot.

Roa's statements do fall under intellect as he speaks from his own understanding of the universe and knowledge of it, that can't be applied to the outside of the universe considering he also barely knows how that works. Only gilles and da Vinci post gilles telling her but even with those explanations it's all left vague.

I don't see myself saying anything equivalent to what you're saying or trying to respond to

Confused

The Incomprehensibility of outer gods is attributed to their power, and true demons are not Incomprehensible so aren't God's for simply existing beyond the texture of humanity.

At the end of the day they still exist in the universe of intellect coooooooughh denoted for anything that exist inside "the universe" including all the textures.

Also, True Demons are stated to be similar to Outer Gods, and per Nasu's statement Primordial Demons are among the most powerful beings in the verse.

Not similar but indistinguishable, too bad we know from our encounter with one like Kiara that statement is far from true. Hence shouldn't be used.

The Horrors Gilles summons in Fate/Zero are not higher dimensional

They were called extra dimensional? What does that have to do with outer gods tho?

No. That is a claim that your position is a unsupported assumption as evidenced by the existence of plausible alternative.

How can it be unsupported assumption when we have seen little to no contradictions? You tried to derive contradictions several times from already contradicted statements.

The plausible alternative on the other hand has little to no basis.

She ascended into the Demonic Heavens, gained insight about the outside of the world.

Outside of the world doesn't denote for the outside of the universe, demons aren't outer God level they are miniscule in comparison they are just divine spirit level lowest of the chain scale infact.

So what she's outside of the texture of humanity? I'm so impressed that she is just beyond 4 dimensions. That still doesn't denounce my argument at all and seems to be strawmanning it again.

And if you can't demonstrate that Roa made the discovery himself, then yes it is possible that he learned it from someone else who acquired this knowledge

That doesn't imply that set person knows of what's outside of the universe, Kiara certainly doesn't you're confusing yourself by attesting for her being outside of the texture of humanity with being outside of "the universe".

Of course it's possible, alot of things are possible but we don't work with what's possible because anything possible can be sufficed by logic, just imagine me saying the root is tier 0 because it's possible in a tier 0 root thread and suffice with it "doesn't contradict hence its logically possible"

It's possible but not probable, just as much as your statement. How can it be probable there's no evidence suggesting that they know of the outer universe.

The Outer Gods has been described to be of flesh and blood, and said to be huge and gross in appearance.

That's why I specified aside from gilles and da Vinci , that doesn't pertain to Roa tho. Kiara who's a true demon still exists within the universe of intellect/ "the universe" I mentioned this beforehand.

Nobody else has knowledge on anything related to outer gods by extension Roa wouldn't including how the outer universe works.

The Machine Gods are from outside the universe

Different universe*

Not outside of the universe, they don't exist in the outer universe. That's another strawman.

and they don't follow its logic

????? They are confined by the laws of the universe of intellect. I don't see them turning the laws of the universe on their heads and breaking logic by simply exist or demonstrating a portion of their power.

Not everyone follows your interpretation on what counts as beyond comprehension

1. Kiara is not beyond human comprehension.

2. Machine gods are not beyond human comprehension.

3. Gilles summoning doesn't have anything to do with outer gods, I didn't even see any servant get driven to madness. (another contradicted assertion)

4. Being outside of the texture of humanity is not equivalent to being outside "the universe". I already specified this alot of times in this thread.

5. Machine gods don't come from the outer universe nor beyond the universe just from a different universe.

6. You strawmanned me like 4 times.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

You can be outside something without transcending in that way. Also this doesn't prove that nothing dimensioned can exist outside.

The throne of heroes is already said to transcend space-time coupled with its dimension-less statement.

I am saying it hasn't been demonstrated that any of the Earth textures are High 1-B. The High 1-B structure exists somewhere, but besides scaling to the Root, the mere existence of the structure doesn't necessarily scale to any known character.

This is a prime example how badly you've strawmanned arguments in this thread, nobody said the texture of the Earth is high 1-B. It's never even referred to as the outer universe I said "the universe" not a universe/texture of humanity.

 

[Tdjwo]

I agree with Theoretical btw. He makes way more sense because outside the universe, dimensions are literally non existent so idk why Roa would be referring to dimensions outside the universe despite implying there are non able to reach past the Nasuverse's universe.

 

[Regidian]

seems a little too vague for a rating tbh

An id_es skill with the 『Self-Modification』 skill as a basis, born from a 『desire to grow』.
Limitless scale expansion is possible.
When the level reaches its upper limit, its norm is enlarged, and a further upper limit is established. This is repeated infinitely. Including infinite growth.

 

[speedster352]

I agree with the op

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

I agree with Theoretical btw. He makes way more sense because outside the universe, dimensions are literally non existent so idk why Roa would be referring to dimensions outside the universe despite implying there are non able to reach past the Nasuverse's universe.

The Throne of Heroes is literally dimensionless while existing outside the universe. Thr universe is literally what Roa was referring to when he implied that High 1B statement.

This is literally baseless

Question, is the throne of heroes not higher dimensional?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-discussion-board-new-forum.107783/page-62#post-5450844

Kadoc	The seat of the Heroic Spirit is a high-dimensional library. of this dimensionexistthingis not a target that can be attacked, but...
Kadoc	That thread-like thing extends from a terminal called a Servant to a higher dimension,

Heroic Spirit Summoning System | TMdict

A secret ritual that was being studied in Chaldea. It was deemed “realizable” with the first successful case by Chaldea in the year 2004, and development has

www.tmdict.com

“Heroic Spirits are a spiritual phenomenon of a higher order, and the Throne of Heroic Spirits exists in a dimension above this dimension."

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

They were called extra dimensional? What does that have to do with outer gods tho?

Gilles summoned the manifestation of Cthulhu (stated in Novel to Fate/Zero), but that MANIFESTATION isn't the true Cthulhu

Also, True Demons are stated to be similar to Outer Gods, and per Nasu's statement Primordial Demons are among the most powerful beings in the verse.

This statement is 20+ years old that came looooong before FGO and actual Outer Gods appeared within Nasuverse. I think that this info is outdated.

The Outer Gods has been described to be of flesh and blood, and said to be huge and gross in appearance. Isn't this a description, and does this refute that they are beyond human comprehension?

Yea, you're right. But that was said when Da Vinci and Gilles discussed the Vulthoom. Though it's also applies to Cthulhu and Cthugha, I have a huge doubt that this description applies to the Yog-Sothoth (considering that Yog was described as Outer Universe and Our Universe and beyond them). Also Gilles stated there that Outer Gods cannot manifest them at will in Our Universe, but Nyarlathotep shown to us that he can contact with BB without any troubles, that implies that Gilles description isn't that good and that there are Outer Gods (like Nyarl and Yog) who just goes beyond it.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Question, is the throne of heroes not higher dimensional?

Not really only one person referred to it as such and that was kadoc.

“Heroic Spirits are a spiritual phenomenon of a higher order, and the Throne of Heroic Spirits exists in a dimension above this dimension."

Idk if this this is a reference to geometric dimensions or not.

The throne of heroes has more statements for not having the concepts of time and being timeless with one statement saying dimension-less.

II'll take that over kadoc singular higher dimensional statement along with that vague one that I do not even know if its geometric or just a plane of existence.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Gilles summoned the manifestation of Cthulhu (stated in Novel to Fate/Zero), but that MANIFESTATION isn't the true Cthulhu

Noted, it was weird for a servant to defeat an outer god. I already had my doubts.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Noted, it was weird for a servant to defeat an outer god. I already had my doubts.

Not an Outer God, but just manifestation of an Outer God. Also true Cthulhu was described by Gilgamesh in Hokusai Trial Quest as guy that have the same power that BB has so Cthulhu is not so strong as Nyarl, for example.

EDIT: Outer Gods have some sort of hierarchy for them. Vulthoom is low-tier, Cthulhu and Cthugha is mid-tier and then Nyarl that have high-tier. There are also Yog-Sothoth that have god-tier within Outer Gods hierarchy. Also there are Shub-Niggurath, but we know about her almost nothing, so I won't claim anything about her.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Kerwin0831

What do you think about this?

 

[Tarang123]

The Throne of Heroes is literally dimensionless while existing outside the universe. Thr universe is literally what Roa was referring to when he implied that High 1B statement

Literally no statement ever used even remotely implies that it’s dimensionless

 

[Tdjwo]

Literally no statement ever used even remotely implies that it’s dimensionless

Ok bro. I wouldn't argue with you on it here. It's off-topic.

 

[Tdjwo]

@DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Kerwin0831

What do you think about this?

Also, before you guys get overwhelmed by the amounts of comments, just skip the lower half of the 3rd page and 4th page. It's basically just irrelevant comments tbh.

 

[Firestorm808]

Will go over this again I have time this weekend.