Nasuverse CRT: For the Upper Tiers.

[Akashachann]

I don't know if the difference between transcendents is enough for one-layer jumps in tier 1

Under normal circumstances, the statement of transcendence alone is not sufficient for qualitative superiority. But in this case, since Kiara is given as an example and is already considered as higher-dimensional, there is no problem in treating this as qualitative superiority IMO.

 

[Vietthai96]

I don't know if the difference between transcendents is enough for one-layer jumps in tier 1, and I don't know if it's relevant to the universe either, but if there's an endless hierarchy of transcendents that each possesses a qualitative superiority over the previous one, that hierarchy would be 1-B as in this case.

endless is High 1-B

 

[NIK_FARIS]

I don't know if the difference between transcendents is enough for one-layer jumps in tier 1, and I don't know if it's relevant to the universe either, but if there's an endless hierarchy of transcendents that each possesses a qualitative superiority over the previous one, that hierarchy would be 1-B as in this case.

Unless I mistaken, Magi Hierachy is high 1-B. It just that no one scale to the entire hierachy

 

[EndlessWords]

endless is High 1-B

So what's the difference between the hierarchy of transcendents in the Nasuverse and the hierarchy of gods in Magi?

 

[EndlessWords]

Unless I mistaken, Magi Hierachy is high 1-B. It just that no one scale to the entire hierachy

For there is no "final god" at the top of the hierarchy just as in this case there is no "final transcendent" at the top of the hierarchy, right?

 

[NIK_FARIS]

For there is no "final god" at the top of the hierarchy just as in this case there is no "final transcendent" at the top of the hierarchy, right?

If we only talk about the transcendental entities based on what Roa said, then the tier of the profile would just be similar to God in Magi because the they would just be within the hierachy rather than actually scale to the entire endless structure. Entity who scale to the entire hierachy rather than being within the hierachy however would still be high 1-B.

 

[EndlessWords]

If we only talk about the transcendental entities based on what Roa said, then the tier of the profile would just be similar to God in Magi because the they would just be within the hierachy rather than actually scale to the entire endless structure. Entity who scale to the entire hierachy rather than being within the hierachy however would still be high 1-B.

Yes, I agree with that.

 

[Tdjwo]

Hied

2nd page already…

This was a mistake. Petition to make this Staff-Only.

@LephyrTheRevanchist @Planck69 @CrimsonStarFallen @Ultima_Reality

Staff members, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hied


Staff members, what are your thoughts on this?

Me personally, I don't think is necessary yet

However, if the majority think it would be better to get a proper discussion going and avoid derailment, I can change it right now. Also, @Ultra_instinct_issei do you want this moved to the staff board? gotta be courteous to OP

I will, however, moderate this heavily. Will go on the thread deleting derailing shit. So behave, peeps. Don't wanna warn anyone.

 

[Tdjwo]

Me personally, I don't think is necessary yet

However, if the majority think it would be better to get a proper discussion going and avoid derailment, I can change it right now. Also, @Ultra_instinct_issei do you want this moved to the staff board? gotta be courteous to OP

I will, however, moderate this heavily. Will go on the thread deleting derailing shit. So behave, peeps. Don't wanna warn anyone.

I was asking what the staff members thought of the crt.

 

[Mageman460]

It does apply to the universe since Roa was referring to the universe hence Kiara being bound to them even if she's higher d. But that's irrelevant to the crt atm.

Literally the parts after the quotes are about how she is still bound to the universe, because she chooses to be. She saw how insignificant she was as a higher dimensional being, and decided to just remain powerful in our universe instead.

Here is the translation of the full scene by Tsukihimates btw.

"Take, for example, a certain nun who suddenly turned up among the Burial Agency.
Using the sabbath, she became a devil, and so obtained a sense for the higher dimensions, turning functionally almighty in ours.
But even she is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe.
As for why―――"
'Fortune may have allowed me to ascend to the seat of the demonic heavens to bring salvation upon all life, yet there I was naught but an insignificant initiate.
Though I had tried to gain true sight my whole life,
what I finally beheld was not merely the truth of the world,
but just how minuscule I was within it.
What then was the purpose of my metamorphosis,
if all my efforts served to do was demonstrate to me how pitiful I was?'
'As such, I remain here in this world.
Small though it may be,
I find far greater purpose within myself here than on the other side...'

In other words, Kiara is still bound to "this universe" because she chooses to be. She transcended the world, saw how miniscule she was, then descended back down to the universe.

Here is the translation btw:

Tsukihime-Translation/script/Ciel/Day 15/15_01B_CIEL15B_1.txt at main · Tsukihimates/Tsukihime-Translation

Open source translation of Tsukihime -A Piece of Blue Glass Moon- prepared by Tsukihimates - Tsukihimates/Tsukihime-Translation

github.com

Here is what I assume the translation you used. Which by the way is apparently Machine Translated.
.
Also as a bonus, here's the video above where Kiara says "Therefore I am staying here."

 

[Theoretical]

Literally the parts after the quotes are about how she is still bound to the universe, because she chooses to be. She saw how insignificant she was as a higher dimensional being, and decided to just remain powerful in our universe instead.

She was never bound by it because she chooses to be? She was bound by it from the beginning, she was never a higher dimensional being she only gained higher dimensional sense, just like how BB isn't physically higher dimensional but her mind is.

Nothing in the translation even remotely says she was physically higher dimensional outside of her senses.

But even she is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe.

We have a full stop after this.

As for why―――"

As for why isn't as for why she was bound to the universe. It's roa going back to demonstrate how there's always one level higher because he said that beforehand gave an example of such being ascending even tho it was only with her senses, then returned to explain why the analogy is relevant.

Then he does so by explaining even after with her higher dimensional senses, she was miniscule in higher dimensions especially when it was genuine higher dimensional beings down to their existence not just senses.

Though I had tried to gain true sight my whole life,
what I finally beheld was not merely the truth of the world,
but just how minuscule I was within it.
What then was the purpose of my metamorphosis,
if all my efforts served to do was demonstrate to me how pitiful I was?'

"I had tried to gain true sight my whole life (literally her just referring to the senses)."

"What I finally beheld was not merely the truth of thr world, but just how miniscule I was within it."

Why would she be miniscule in such a world when she herself is higher dimensional? Idk maybe because she's not physically a higher dimensional being just a being who gained higher dimensional senses. Like how it's reiterated multiple times even in that translation.

Anymore issues?

 

[Theoretical]

Hm?

As soon as she became able to sense the 'outside' of the world,
	she felt her own powerlessness more acutely than ever before.
	Yet another example that drives home the limits of the individual.

The actual reason is even given in your sources supporting what I'm saying in 2 ways, pretty odd for you to cut that out.

The term universe is contextual based it could refer to the texture of humanity which was said to have only 3 vectors of space and 1 as a separate one he ce 4D.

She obviously isn't beyond "the" the universe. The people who scale to it are Zeus and they started freaking out when Zeus was said to have the power to destroy so if wouldn't make sense for them to freak out when people like Kiara who are way below the scaling chain were to scale to that; I still question the validity of the Zeus claim tho.

This is pretty reasonable, but the hierarchy of higher dimensional beings can't apply to things outside of the universe, the outer universe was described as being beyond reasoning and how the laws of the universe are completely not applicable to it so presumably even the notion of higher dimensions.

This is why inhabitants of it like outer gods are also said to be above logic, can break logic and are said to be Incomprehensible even through Limitless wisdom

• Outer universe stuff
• Outer Gods stuff

It wouldn't even make sense for it to apply outside of the universe but I digress.

 

[Mageman460]

She was never bound by it because she chooses to be? She was bound by it from the beginning, she was never a higher dimensional being she only gained higher dimensional sense, just like how BB isn't physically higher dimensional but her mind is.

So, Kiara is higher dimensional. One of the Koyanskayas compares her to a hyperdimensional cube. She's likened to a True Daemon, which are Higher Dimensional. She flat out is called "almighty within ours" She also says in this scene that she ascended to the demonic heavens. So yes, she ascended to a higher dimension and then descended back down.

As for why isn't as for why she was bound to the universe. It's roa going back to demonstrate how there's always one level higher because he said that beforehand gave an example of such being ascending even tho it was only with her senses, then returned to explain why the analogy is relevant.

Then he does so by explaining even after with her higher dimensional senses, she was miniscule in higher dimensions especially when it was genuine higher dimensional beings down to their existence not just senses.



"I had tried to gain true sight my whole life (literally her just referring to the senses)."

"What I finally beheld was not merely the truth of thr world, but just how miniscule I was within it."

Why would she be miniscule in such a world when she herself is higher dimensional? Idk maybe because she's not physically a higher dimensional being just a being who gained higher dimensional senses. Like how it's reiterated multiple times even in that translation.

Anymore issues?

I'm having some issues here understanding your point. She is miniscule in a higher dimensional world because the other beings around her are even higher than her.

There's also her statement of just
"As such, I remain here in this world.
Small though it may be,
I find far greater purpose within myself here than on the other side..."
Which wouldn't make sense if she has a sense for higher dimensions, she wouldn't really have the choice to just remain in the world. Because she actually ascended.

Regardless, my whole point is that while I agree with the High 1-B theoretical structure. No one scales to it and it does not apply to the universe. This is ultimately just going to be used for proof that the Root belongs in the 1-A range.

Hm?

As soon as she became able to sense the 'outside' of the world,
	she felt her own powerlessness more acutely than ever before.
	Yet another example that drives home the limits of the individual.

The actual reason is even given in your sources supporting what I'm saying in 2 ways, pretty odd for you to cut that out.

It wouldn't even make sense for it to apply outside of the universe but I digress.

I actually didn't see that. I'm looking forward to playing through the game myself so I stopped literally where I stopped quoting so as to prevent further spoilers.
Regardless, as I've posted above, an ascended Kiara has numerous statements about being higher dimensional. Not just her senses.

 

[Theoretical]

So, Kiara is higher dimensional. One of the Koyanskayas compares her to a hyperdimensional cube. She's likened to a True Daemon, which are Higher Dimensional.

This is so odd but whatever, I guess it makes sense to use fgo Kiara for a totally different timeline of Kiara? Do you think fgo Kiara joined the burial agency? No.

They are not hyper-literally the same being so using her fgo version is weird.

She even goes by the name Kiara Kisshouin, Chaos who's a dead apostle in tsukihime isn't in the fate worlds.

I don't understand how you thought patiently and decided to just use fgo material on material that's clearly different even with how the events played out to fgo. I don't know if this is intentionally being disingenuous or not but whatever.

She flat out is called "almighty within ours"

"Take, for example, a certain nun who suddenly turned up among the Burial Agency.
Using the sabbath, she became a devil, and so obtained a sense for the higher dimensions, turning functionally almighty in ours.

Please read your translation, it says almighty in ours after mentioning higher dimensions, almighty in lower dimensions/ours not the universe.

She also says in this scene that she ascended to the demonic heavens.

Via her senses we know, you don't have to reiterate that. Yes she ascended yes she did duh? It appears just higher dimensional senses alone is enough to make one superior to lower dimensions even when they are physically not higher dimensional that's the point. She regards her higher dimensional senses as a form of ascendence you've denounced little to nothing. It's just doing your best to play with semantics and take the statements out of context.

So yes, she ascended to a higher dimension and then descended back down.

Nothing you said suffices such a conclusion, using sources that don't correlate to this context doesn't do a good job too.

I'm having some issues here understanding your point. She is miniscule in a higher dimensional world because the other beings around her are even higher than her.

Congrats, that's the point They are Higher than her because she just has higher dimensional senses.

There's also her statement of just
"As such, I remain here in this world.
Small though it may be,
I find far greater purpose within myself here than on the other side..."

Doesn't denounce anything, I already explained the context beforehand she disregarded her senses to return to her normal life.

Sooo?

Which wouldn't make sense if she has a sense for higher dimensions, she wouldn't really have the choice to just remain in the world. Because she actually ascended.

This doesn't even make sense to me, rephrase for me.

Regardless, my whole point is that while I agree with the High 1-B theoretical structure.

The definition of theoretical must've changed in these past few years.

No one scales to it and it does not apply to the universe

Yes, nobody does
I'll prove that by

sending context that doesn't relate to what's being proposed (we went from tsukihime which evidently contains way different progression of events to fgo, to talking about fgo)
then after doing that concluding that it doesn't apply.

Lmfaoo

Regardless, as I've posted above, an ascended Kiara has numerous statements about being higher dimensional. Not just her senses.

I'm so lost genuinely lmao, so how exactly how does posting statements of her using the term ascending suppose to support her being higher dimensional, using the fgo stuff is so disingenuous and is already dismissable.

She ascended via her senses, everything higher dimensional stuff she references senses, nothing and nowhere does it say she's physically higher dimensional.

You practically just ignore the actual statements to nitpick words like "Ascension" and went on to infer how it doesn't make sense for her to not be higher dimensional via more hypothesis rather than what's in the scan.

She's likened to a True Daemon, which are Higher Dimensional.

OH Ye forgot about this, yeah likened to them via her senses. We know like how she says senses over and over again and you ignore that.

The term universe is contextual based it could refer to the texture of humanity which was said to have only 3 vectors of space and 1 as a separate one hence 4D.

She obviously isn't beyond "the" the universe. The people who scale to it are Zeus and they started freaking out when Zeus was said to have the power to destroy so if wouldn't make sense for them to freak out when people like Kiara who are way below the scaling chain were to scale to that; I still question the validity of the Zeus claim tho.

This is pretty reasonable, but the hierarchy of higher dimensional beings can't apply to things outside of the universe, the outer universe was described as being beyond reasoning and how the laws of the universe are completely not applicable to it so presumably even the notion of higher dimensions.

This is why inhabitants of it like outer gods are also said to be above logic, can break logic and are said to be Incomprehensible even through Limitless wisdom

• Outer universe stuff
• Outer Gods stuff

Also ignored how I say it doesn't make narrative sense for it to refer to the outside of the universe

Just because the Inverse chain scaling doesn't apply how you want it to, or doesn't work how you'd see fit for it to work doesn't falsify it.

 

[Tdjwo]

@Mageman460 did you finish through Tsukihime before making these comments?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

@Mageman460 did you finish through Tsukihime before making these comments?

 

[Tdjwo]

He literally said he hasn't played through thr entire thing

 

[Tdjwo]

I feel like this thread is almost done since the majority are in agreement but only 2 staff members have agreed so....

2nd page already…

Nope, way too volatile, considering we're entering High 1-B territory for this.

Me personally, I don't think is necessary yet

However, if the majority think it would be better to get a proper discussion going and avoid derailment, I can change it right now. Also, @Ultra_instinct_issei do you want this moved to the staff board? gotta be courteous to OP

I will, however, moderate this heavily. Will go on the thread deleting derailing shit. So behave, peeps. Don't wanna warn anyone.

Can you staff members please let us know if you agree or disagree with the High 1-B Universe?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I feel like this thread is almost done since the majority are in agreement but only 2 staff members have agreed so....



Can you staff members please let us know if you agree or disagree with the High 1-B Universe?

Which 2 staff agreed?

 

[Tdjwo]

Which 2 staff agreed?

Migue and Ultima. Although, Ultima agreed with the High 1B statement, he initially didn't fully agree to it relating to the universe but we've explained it to him and he's yet to reply.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I feel like this thread is almost done since the majority are in agreement but only 2 staff members have agreed so....



Can you staff members please let us know if you agree or disagree with the High 1-B Universe?

Don't know about nasuverse beyond some smol things about Fate here and there. Can't really comment. I'm here to moderate only.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Migue and Ultima. Although, Ultima agreed with the High 1B statement, he initially didn't fully agree to it relating to the universe but we've explained it to him and he's yet to reply.

Migue doesn't have evaluation perms and Ultima I wouldn't count as an agree since the CRT is about high 1-B universe.

 

[Tdjwo]

Migue doesn't have evaluation perms and Ultima I wouldn't count as an agree since the CRT is about high 1-B universe.

Migue doesn't? Oh well.. Ultima agrees that High 1B statement is legit. He just doesn't fully understand why it pertains to the universe and I and @Theoretical already explained to him.

That said, how many staff approvals are needed before the thread passing?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Migue doesn't? Oh well.. Ultima agrees that High 1B statement is legit. He just doesn't fully understand why it pertains to the universe and I and @Theoretical already explained to him.

That said, how many staff approvals are needed before the thread passing?

Atleast 3 although more might be needed for a thread like this.

 

[KingNanaya]

Migue doesn't? Oh well.. Ultima agrees that High 1B statement is legit. He just doesn't fully understand why it pertains to the universe and I and @Theoretical already explained to him.

That said, how many staff approvals are needed before the thread passing?

because nasu is nasu, likely 3

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That said, how many staff approvals are needed before the thread passing?

To be absolutely safe, I advocate for 5 for tier 1.

However, the rules only state "as much staff support as possible".

Combined with the fact this verse is kinda controversial (though it has definitely mellowed down), past threads going a bit overboard with spam and stuff and staff overall lack of knowledge on it, we may be here for a while.

 

[KLOL506]

To be absolutely safe, I advocate for 5 for tier 1.

However, the rules only state "as much staff support as possible".

Combined with the fact this verse is kinda controversial (though it has definitely mellowed down), past threads going a bit overboard with spam and stuff and staff overall lack of knowledge on it, we may be here for a while.

I'd argue 5-7 each for both thread mods and admins would be needed for something this controversial to push through, BARE MINIMUM, so a total of 10-14 staff members in total (Red name and green name).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'd argue 5-7 each for both thread mods and admins would be needed for something this controversial to push through, BARE MINIMUM, so a total of 10-14 staff members in total (Red name and green name).

No. That's absolutely overkill and bs for a verse that barely gets any traction from staff.

Is not nearly that controversial.

 

[Tdjwo]

I'd argue 5-7 each for both thread mods and admins would be needed for something this controversial to push through, BARE MINIMUM, so a total of 10-14 staff members in total (Red name and green name).

Bro what in the heck? Not even SCP or DC/Marvel needs this much. This thread isn't even controversial at all.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Elizhaa @Agnaa @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Planck69 @Qawsedf234

I know tier 1 bs is tiring, but...

Your help in evaluating this would be appreciated.

 

[Tdjwo]

@Elizhaa @Agnaa @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Planck69

I know tier 1 bs is tiring, but...

Your help in evaluating this would be appreciated.

Deagonx boutta prolong this into 5 extra pages for no reason.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Deagonx boutta prolong this into 5 extra pages for no reason.

better to have discussion than none at all, cope

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa

I know tier 1 bs is tiring, but...

Your help in evaluating this would be appreciated.

This thread has already been added to my 22-thread-long "to-evaluate" backlog.

Note that I may not get to this for a bit, both due to that length, and the far more pressing issue of replacing our Gfycat links.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

This thread has already been added to my 22-thread-long "to-evaluate" backlog.

Note that I may not get to this for a bit, both due to that length, and the far more pressing issue of replacing our Gfycat links.

Honestly completely fair. Thank you very much.

 

[Tdjwo]

This thread has already been added to my 22-thread-long "to-evaluate" backlog.

Note that I may not get to this for a bit, both due to that length, and the far more pressing issue of replacing our Gfycat links.

Sounds fair, thanks.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Me personally, I don't think is necessary yet

However, if the majority think it would be better to get a proper discussion going and avoid derailment, I can change it right now. Also, @Ultra_instinct_issei do you want this moved to the staff board? gotta be courteous to OP

I will, however, moderate this heavily. Will go on the thread deleting derailing shit. So behave, peeps. Don't wanna warn anyone.

eh, sure

 

[Firestorm808]

To clarify, do these scans only come from the Remake specifically, not the original release?

 

[KingNanaya]

To clarify, do these scans only come from the Remake specifically, not the original release?

for the Kiara stuff, only in the remake. I would need to look through the original for the other stuff

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

To clarify, do these scans only come from the Remake specifically, not the original release?

That is correct; from the Remake's Ciel route, which involves a more original plot and different final antagonists.

However, both the remake characters and characters from the original release have crossed over, so the original release is still part of the verse.