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Love is everlasting! Love will light the way! (DB Super, again)

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At this point, it’s just a matter of waiting for Medeus to come with more arguments/concede, cause I doubt we’re gonna make any progress otherwise.
 
I'm still not buying the Zoirey or Tupper examples; repelling light ki blasts is something even weaker characters do against stronger characters regularly. Same with getting weighed down.

You do realize Goku actually did turned SSB against Krillin, to make Krillin think he was going all out which Android 18 new full well Goku was just toying with him. Do I really need to explain this again? I thought it was agreed Krillin shouldn't be 3-A. But even that fight was seemingly done with more seriousness than what was happening in the tournament. And he was pretty much doing the same thing he did against Skinny Buu.

Again, repelling light ki blasts aren't the best examples of scaling. And trading blows yes, but she didn't even knock him back where as Vegeta was clearly overpowering her in his base form. That kick didn't really seem to hurt Vegeta.

Jiren, Toppo, and Dyspo are the only Pride Troopers shown as being exceedingly powerful; the rest of them are consistently knocked around and are consistently defeated by those otherwise considered Underdogs.

Actually, it would be better if other staff members into Dragon Ball were asked. Particularly SomebodyData, AKM Sama, and Elizhaa. I personally wouldn't mind 18 or Ribrianne being 3-A, but I just didn't want to overstress other staff members who were firmly against that.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm still not buying the Zoirey or Tupper examples; repelling light ki blasts is something even weaker characters do against stronger characters regularly. Same with getting weighed down.
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I reiterate, what makes you think Goku could’ve just bodied them at any moment when the scene implies nothing of the sort.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
You do realize Goku actually did turned SSB against Krillin, to make Krillin think he was going all out which Android 18 new full well Goku was just toying with him. Do I really need to explain this again? I thought it was agreed Krillin shouldn't be 3-A. But even that fight was seemingly done with more seriousness than what was happening in the tournament. And he was pretty much doing the same thing he did against Skinny Buu.
Click to expand...
What does Krillin have to do with anything here, exactly? And assuming Goku was more serious against Krillin than the fighters in the ToP is headcanon (especially when the context points to the opppsite, as he was just trying to help Krillin’s confidence).
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Again, repelling light ki blasts aren't the best examples of scaling. And trading blows yes, but she didn't even knock him back where as Vegeta was clearly overpowering her in his base form. That kick didn't really seem to hurt Vegeta.
Click to expand...
I didn’t say Ribrianne repelled a light ki blast, she directly no-sold a ki beam that hit her after clashing with it for an extended period of time. And no, Vegeta was not “clearly overpowering her,” they had a prolonged flash, Ribrianne no-sold his attack and proceeded to not take damage from any of his attacks.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Jiren, Toppo, and Dyspo are the only Pride Troopers shown as being exceedingly powerful; the rest of them are consistently knocked around and are consistently defeated by those otherwise considered Underdogs.
Click to expand...
Stop just calling people underdogs, that’s literally your headcanon and nothing more. And your claims here are just blatantly wrong. First of all, Kunshi is already considered 3-A on this site. You haven’t provided any anti-feats for the group that fought Caulifla and Kale, your only response for Tupper was assuming Goku was holding back despite nothing implying that, and there is literally only one other Pride Trooper besides Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo and the ones I just mentioned. So like I said in my last reply, I would love to see what exactly makes you think all the Pride Troopers other than Jiren, Toppo and Dyspo are weak despite feats showing the contrary.
 
The Krillin example is a perfect reason why to showcase that downscaling from his base forms is bad practice. Because Goku literally just barely takes any of his fights seriously. And 18 even calls him out for literally just goofing around as do others.

I'm referring to this scene. Step by step; Vegeta's Galick Gun overpowers Ribrianne's beam, then he forces her out of her cannonball with a casual Ki blast. After bombarding blows, Vegeta overpowers her with a single punch. Then he was kicked back by a surprise attack. But a barrage of casual Ki blasts from Vegeta's base forms scared them both off.

I'm not the one who originally called them that, many others also said the same thing. I forgot about Kunshi but he's the 4th strongest of the Pride Troopers yes. I forgot he was recently upgraded on the previous thread. But still, there's still many other things commonly spoken about amongst the scaling being all over the place. But anyway. @AKM sama @Elizhaa @SomebodyData do you have any thoughts on what should be done here?
 
I don’t see how Goku not going all-out against his best friend and explicitly trying to make sure he’s ready for the tournament means he’s holding back against everybody and their mother in the tournament. That’s an association fallacy.

You’re overlooking quite a few parts of that to make it look like Vegeta bodied her, and that’s just a dishonest way to look at it. This is the series of events:
  • Vegeta and Ribrianne clash. His ki beam is evenly matched with her ki blast, the ones that you’ve been constantly saying are casual attacks. (Vegeta was not using the Galick Gun, nor was Ribrianne using a beam).
  • Vegeta screams (which is distinctly not something you do while casual and not trying), and his beam powers through and hits Ribrianne. She is completely unaffected and immediately charges Vegeta again.
  • Vegeta hits her with a ki blast, this also does not harm her, and she blocks several of his hits before being knocked away. And no, you can’t pass that off as her being overpowered if you don’t do the same for Rozie knocking Vegeta away with a kick.

More people saying it doesn’t make it correct, that would be an appeal to majority. And Kunshi was not recently upgraded, his profile was 3-A the moment it was created and has stated that way since.
 
Goku still does this all throughout the tournament, he's just toying with weaker foes one moment; the weaker foes get one-shotted, and then Goku actually does an excellent job against those other foes.

I'm just going off of what I see with my eyes. Absolutely nothing is "Dishonest" as I never play that role. It looked even until Vegeta put just a bit more energy and then overwhelmed her beam. Simply surviving it isn't enough for scaling, and just one ki blast very much did hurt her. Vegeta even called her cannonball, "A Pathetic attack". Vegeta not even using his super saiyan forms combined with the fact that even his regular ki blasts literally daze are clear signs that Vegeta was clearly the superior fighter. Ribrianne still having a surprise back up with Vegeta overwhelming both of them with Danmaku are still facts she's weaker than base Vegeta.

Nevermind regarding Kunshi, but I'm still going to wait for other staff members.
 
Or the “weaker foes” aren’t actually weaker and it’s just being assumed that they are. Especially with the Pride Troopers, you haven’t provided any anti-feats or actual reasons to suggest they shouldn’t scale besides “well Goku holds back sometimes.” Especially when literally only one Pride Trooper here gets his scaling solely from Goku, so it doesn’t even matter.

I didn’t say Ribrianne just survived it (and yes, surviving is grounds for scaling, that’s literally what durability is), she took it with no visible damage whatsoever. She took all of Vegeta’s attacks with no damage. The ki blast didn’t hurt her at all, and if tanking an attack isn’t enough to scale, then Vegeta of all people insulting someone certainly isn’t either. He insulted Magetta and Toppo and we still scale them to him. Vegeta didn’t overwhelm both of them, that literally did not happen, so no, it isn’t a fact.
 
I’d like to note that I’m not disagreeing with Vegeta being stronger. I’m disagreeing with the notion that he’s leaps and bounds stronger to the point that she can’t scale, because the fight itself shows otherwise.
 
Tupper and Cocotte were defeated by 18 rather easily, I know 18's tier is currently being questioned. But 18 is also consistently portrayed as being a lot weaker than 17; she's often needing to be rescued by him. This is made especially true post the Anilaza fight where 17 was able to match and overpower base Toppo and ultimately defeated a severely weakened Jiren with the help Frieza. She has kept up with him on occasion, but those are known inconsistencies.

Actually, we often avoid the whole "Even chip damaging is still AP" or "Getting knocked away but still surviving is still durability" as examples. She was very much hurt; while no bones were broken, she still got Bowling ball'd. Though I suppose those are technically enough to be considered durability to some extent. But we still need more staff approval.
 
C-17 is on the level of Super Saiyan Blues, so being weaker than him doesn’t mean C-18 can’t be 3-A. (She is only being scaled to the base-SSJ tier after all). Also Cocotte wasn’t ever actually harmed by C-18, she just picked up her barrier and tossed it out of the ring.

The thing is that those descriptions don’t apply to Ribrianne. She no-sold his ki beam and was merely staggered by his ki blast during her attack. And from what I’ve seen, getting knocked away but receiving no damage would absolutely count as durability.

I’m going to sleep, I’ll get back to this in the morning.
 
I was pinged so I'll say this. This topic has been debated several times. I have been part of this debate several times. And the last time when we settled on the ratings for these characters, I remember there were several staff members involved in that thread. We can all agree that DBS made it incredibly inconsistent and you can see it from both sides since there are arguments for both. I am not denying that. But it was decided that the current rating was the best all things considered. I am incredibly tired of this specific topic to go in-depth one more time. And I honestly think there should be a rule for this.
 
You know what was also debated several times? Moon level Roshi being an outlier, and yet here we are.

I don’t understand how High 4-C of all things is the “best all things considered” when:
A. It’s based on the assumption that C-18 is comparable to Tenshinhan, which is not implied anywhere in the series at all.
B. There are several examples of C-18 and people that she scales to/scale to her fighting 3-As, but somehow destroying parts of the arena is a better feat to scale them to?
C. Even if you say Goku was suppressed (even though he’s not the only one these characters scale to), we have suppressed Goku at 4-B, not High 4-C, so there’s still a problem there.

What exactly made you come to the conclusion that High 4-C is the best rating, especially when the reason that C-18 even scales to it is a baseless assumption.
 
I 100% agree with LordTracer on this one. 18 has next to none High 4-C showings compared to her 3-A scalings.

It's just absurd to still have her at human tier/High 4-C.

That thought of the Pride Troopers that fought 18/Caulifla/Goku being fodder tier when the series explictly portrayed the opposite is headcanon.
 
Pretty much all the High 4-C's should be upgraded to 4-B scaling from Basil and Napapa. And all those Pride Troopers are clearly above Napapa. And Basil at the very least should be comparable to Majin Vegeta was. And Katchin iirc is something so durable, even most 4-B characters couldn't break it back in Buu saga.

Also, it was agreed 18 and Ribrianne's tiers could be debated after the forum move. So 3-A is worth discussing and don't really appreciate some staff members or former staff members trying to shut it down or use extremism to censor it further. But I pretty much agree that High 4-C should pretty much go.
 
Yeah agree with medus I said that a couple of times as well we should scale all High 4-C's to 4-B at least for now then we can discuss 3-A stuffs of
Android 18 & Ribrianne
 
I just found the first downgrade thread that made the change on Brianne, Honestly, I am perplexed on 3-A Brianne's transformation was downgraded to Unknown since not many were against 3-A and the consensus seems to be that 3-A remained.

Ribrianne has many inconsistent 3-A feats, though.
I am neutral on Brianne and her team's tiering, for now.

The abilities additions seem fine.

18's case is iffy since it is without explanation on her power increase.

Updating all High 4-C to 4-B scaling from Basil and Napapa and from the reasons that Medeus explained seems fine, to me.
 
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AKM sama said:
I was pinged so I'll say this. This topic has been debated several times. I have been part of this debate several times. And the last time when we settled on the ratings for these characters, I remember there were several staff members involved in that thread. We can all agree that DBS made it incredibly inconsistent and you can see it from both sides since there are arguments for both. I am not denying that. But it was decided that the current rating was the best all things considered. I am incredibly tired of this specific topic to go in-depth one more time. And I honestly think there should be a rule for this.
Click to expand...
I agree with AKM.
 
Elizhaa said:
Ribrianne has many inconsistent 3-A feats, though.
I am neutral on Brianne and her team's tiering, for now.
Click to expand...
Elizhaa said:
18's case is iffy since it is without explanation on her power increase.
Click to expand...
This was brought up earlier in the thread, and in the last thread about these two, but what about making them ‘4-B, possibly 3-A?’

To be honest, I don’t really agree with this idea anymore (18 fighting one of the Pride Troopers that fought Caulifla and Kale, and Ribrianne’s teammates fighting 3-As makes me pretty confident that she should be a solid 3-A), but I think it works as a compromise.
 
I do not mind if you create a discussion rule for this if you wish, as long as you have reached some kind of coherent conclusion.
 
So we reached A conclusion yet?!
1. First I dont See anyone disagreeing with every High 4-C's Upgrade to 4-B
2. So I gave A proposal of Android 18 & Ribrianne Being At least 4-B , Possibly or likely 3-A (even though its more so A clear 3-A)
3. If you guys want you can do 18 later but all high 4-C's should be upgraded to 4-B as it was even stated & supported by many people as well as Stuff members (Medus & Elizhaa)
 
So every High 4-C in the ToP gets upgraded, right? Or did I misunderstand somewhere?
 
Krillin, Roshi, Tien, and those that scale from them get upgraded to 4-B scaling from Tien being able to bust Kachi Katchin; that much is easy; as are others shown to be superior to Napapa who is comparable to Basil.
 
Okay, so the only thing that really needs more discussion is 18, Ribrianne and the Pride Troopers (who, I would like to note, already have damaging base Caulifla and their clash with SSJ Caulifla and SSJ Kale as part of their justifications) being ‘At least 4-B, possibly 3-A.’
 
The pride troopers that fought SSJ Caulifla and LSSJ Kale have more 3-A feats than someone like Frost, so if Frost is 3-A, then why wouldn't the pride troopers be 3-A too?
 
LordTracer said:
Okay, so the only thing that really needs more discussion is 18, Ribrianne and the Pride Troopers (who, I would like to note, already have damaging base Caulifla and their clash with SSJ Caulifla and SSJ Kale as part of their justifications) being ‘At least 4-B, possibly 3-A.’
Click to expand...
For Kahseral C-17 needs to activate his barrier to Tank his attack called "Justice Bomber" (Even though he called it a "stupid attack" Though it doesnt mean its strong or weak)
 
Every single one of the Pride Troopers have more 3-A stuff in their current justifications than High 4-C/4-B, but meh.
 
Matt is strongly against 3-A upgrades period, and last I checked; AKM Sama isn't a big fan of the "At least, possibly". Although, I still don't quite have any better compromises for 18 and Ribrianne. I agree with AKM's points sort of, but Matt also has other things in mind which I have to respectfully disagree with. But Elizhaa seems more neutral much like I am and agrees with the High 4-C's being upgraded to 4-B for my reasons as pretty much everyone is.
 
Well, for what it is worth, I think that you seem to make sense, and do not mind compromise "At least ..., possibly ..." tiers in very uncertain cases.
 
Maybe the High 4-C => 4-B upgrade should be applied now while ‘At least 4-B, possibly 3-A’ can still be discussed (unless Elizhaa is fine with that, in which case, that could probably be applied as well).
 
Why are we scaling all High 4-C's to Basil and Napapa? I think I missed this part?

Also, Gohan was in his base form when he couldn't destroy Katchin, so he was still High 4-C, not 4-B.
 
Basil is already 4-B via scaling from Majin Buu; Majin Buu should be stronger than he was in Buu saga to some extent, and he put up a good fight before the tables were turned; so there's 0 reason for him to be weaker than Majin Vegeta for example. Napapa has matched and arguably overpowered Basil during the tournament, so he's 4-B. And he was curb stomped by SSJ Caulifa, which Pride troopers did much better against U6 saiyans than Napapa did, so they would at least be superior to him.

As for Krillin, Tien, and Roshi; Kachi Katchin was considered much stronger than Katchin which Tien obliterated. His Tri Beam damaged it more than Napapa could. Also, the Z Sword's sheer weight was heavy enough to train base Gohan to where he still got much stronger than he was before hand; and even before lifting it, he was thought of as being above Shin in base; at least after the zenkai boost he got from Buu. Also, Shin implied Katchin was 100% unbreakable, like even SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu weren't quite obliterating it iirc.

Krillin also has sparred with 18, and while clearly far weaker, he still helped her to get as strong as she is now. And Roshi was actually considered better than most other underdogs. Roshi was closer to Frost's fighting ability than Napapa was to Caulifa. Cocotte admittedly has few physical feats or anti-feats outside her barrier; which is 3-A. Though she is on par with other Pride Troopers. Also, the Z Fighters apparently consider the humans to be at least comparable to Majin Buu based on Goku's interactions with them during the recruitment drive.
 
I get the Pride Troopers argument.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
His Tri Beam damaged it more than Napapa could.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's a valid way to scale. There are some of Goku's attacks that did less damage to the ring than Tien's tri-beam. It's not consistent. You can just say that he damaged the ring. How much depends on several factors like AoE, number of attacks, time being spent on attacking and general inconsistency.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
to where he still got much stronger than he was before hand; and even before lifting it, he was thought of as being above Shin in base
Click to expand...
Still, high 4-C in base.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, Shin implied Katchin was 100% unbreakable, like even SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu weren't quite obliterating it iirc.
Click to expand...
That's not what he implied. He just said "hardest substance in the universe" or something like that.
 
As far as I remember Shin Is well high into Large Star lvl & survived a beat down from Majin Buu also Shin scales to "at least High 4-C" Cause His feat can be interpreted as High 4-C to High 4-C+ (If the latter is true then Katchi Kachin>>>Katchin >> that then it would be technically 4-B if not Gohan's Base is still "At least High 4-C" Scaling from Shin & He couldnt even crack Katchin while Tien Blowed up a large chunk of Katchi Katchin its easily At least High 4-C though its more likely 4-B
Also Shin tanking some casual attacks from Buu is not a joke if Shin was High 4-C+ its more consistent to say this & like I said his feat varies from High 4-C to High 4-C+ based on the calc (I personally prefer high 4-C+ since it was kinda implied any stars why not the most massive ones cause their universe is very similar to ours
For Pride troopers they gave kale & caulifla far more struggle than Napapa
ever did
 
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