Love is everlasting! Love will light the way! (DB Super, again)

[AKM sama]

As far as I remember Shin Is well high into Large Star lvl & survived a beat down from Majin Buu also Shin scales to "at least High 4-C" Cause His feat can be interpreted as High 4-C to High 4-C+ (If the latter is true then Katchi Kachin>>>Katchin >> that then it would be technically 4-B if not Gohan's Base is still "At least High 4-C" Scaling from Shin & He couldnt even crack Katchin while Tien Blowed up a large chunk of Katchi Katchin its easily At least High 4-C though its more likely 4-B

You don't jump to 4-B like that. Base Gohan is still listed as Star level and Tien just upscales to that. No tier jumping.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I'm in favor of 3-A 18 and Ribrianne.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually the High 4-C+ calculation was considered dated and removed; he's simply High 4-C upscaling after upscaling after upscaling, which 4-C starts from Frieza saga SSJ Goku.

I'm aware base forms are High 4-C, but training with Old Kai still made him grow to where he's not massive degrees of 4-B. Also, did anyone in Buu saga even break regular Katchin? So if anything, Katchin appears to be 4-B most likely regardless. If something that was able to empower Gohan to be above Super Buu couldn't even scratch Katchin, that sounds like it speaks for itself.

Also, the difference is Goku wasn't trying to destroy much. Where as Napapa was pretty much going berserk and Tien was using his strongest attacks. 18 also did value that Krillin was at least becoming decently strong; even complimented him in his fight against Majora; where as she semi fodderized the Pride Troopers. I know their tiers are being questioned too, as is 18's. I can understand these details are vague or even golden egglike, but I still have one last obvious feat to bring up.

Remembered when a base form of copy Vegeta stomped SSJ3 Gotenks without even trying? That is clearly the most consistent and in your face fight scene at demonstrating how strong the main cast have grown since Buu saga. Anyone who's at least shown better reasons to keep up with the main Z fighters should be above Gotenks. Vegeta even compliments Roshi for doing surprisingly well against Frost, which is a lot more than what he can say for Gotenks. And this was a Vegeta who's only gotten a lot stronger since that previous encounter.

So yeah, I still think there's other details that I really don't think the underdogs should be any lower than 4-B.

 

[AKM sama]

Also, did anyone in Buu saga even break regular Katchin?

Nobody even tried.

If something that was able to empower Gohan to be above Super Buu couldn't even scratch Katchin, that sounds like it speaks for itself.

Old Kai is not strong. Him empowering Gohan is not what matters here.

Vegeta even compliments Roshi for doing surprisingly well against Frost, which is a lot more than what he can say for Gotenks. And this was a Vegeta who's only gotten a lot stronger since that previous encounter.

Roshi didn't even do much. Just a few punches that didn't hurt Frost. Roshi doesn't scale to Frost.

Anyone who's at least shown better reasons to keep up with the main Z fighters should be above

None of these fighters have shown to keep up with the main cast.

Also, the difference is Goku wasn't trying to destroy much. Where as Napapa was pretty much going berserk and Tien was using his strongest attacks.

Again, the showings of destroying Katchi Katchin are inconsistent. Berserk Kale doesn't do any damage to the ring in one scene and in the next she casually blows up a mountain of it.

18 also did value that Krillin was at least becoming decently strong; even complimented him in his fight against Majora;

Yeah, Krillin scales a bit below 18. It's one of the reasons why 18 isn't 3-A.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Fair enough

I know that, but the Z Sword still possesses some of Old Kai's potential energy he does to bestow Gohan, and even training with it increased his powers a great deal, to the point where it impressed Goku.

Never proposed an outright scale, just that he's stronger and swifter than Gotenks was shown. He's way weaker than Frost, clearly not 3-A. But he's closer to Frost than Gotenks is to base Vegeta.

None of them when serious yes.

I'm aware, but destroying Katchin in general is still a solid feat above any Buu saga character.

Yes, but if 18 isn't 3-A, she would still be 4-B at bare minimum for other reasons laid out. Mainly the Pride troopers being above Napapa which I think you said it made sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

18 isn't 3-A yeah. It would be an outlier to escale her to anything remotely 3-A.

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, Krillin scales a bit below 18. It's one of the reasons why 18 isn't 3-A.

Then why do the profiles say Krillin only scales to her while she’s heavily suppressed?

 

[AKM sama]

I know that, but the Z Sword still possesses some of Old Kai's potential energy he does to bestow Gohan, and even training with it increased his powers a great deal, to the point where it impressed Goku.

I don't see how that is relevant. There is nothing quantifiable about that.

Never proposed an outright scale, just that he's stronger and swifter than Gotenks was shown. He's way weaker than Frost, clearly not 3-A. But he's closer to Frost than Gotenks is to base Vegeta.

One showing of him catching Frost off-guard doesn't mean anything.

I'm aware, but destroying Katchin in general is still a solid feat above any Buu saga character.

No it isn't. It is just above Buu saga base Gohan.

Yes, but if 18 isn't 3-A, she would still be 4-B at bare minimum for other reasons laid out. Mainly the Pride troopers being above Napapa which I think you said it made sense.

I think the Pride Troopers did better than Napapa only because of their teamwork and combined efforts. They were pretty fodder on their own.

 

[LightReinh12345]

Then why do the profiles say Krillin only scales to her while she’s heavily suppressed?

Pride Troopers are clearly 3-A its clear after they pushed Base Goku hard (i know people can argue he is suppressed) but Kale & Caulifla thing was pretty clear they were struggling a Lot
Dont think the beam struggle is Team work uts clearly their AP

You don't jump to 4-B like that. Base Gohan is still listed as Star level and Tien just upscales to that. No tier jumping.

Wait Buu Saga Base Gohan only Star level?! The Ratings are pretty wrong they should be At least High 4-C
Did Shin can even handle the Z sword casually like Base Gohan ?!
U said urself he should be High 4-C
They still should be rated "at least High 4-C"

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached any conclusions here yet?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Shin literally couldn't free the Z sword nor could he lift it, while Base Gohan in the Buu Saga could. As well as Base Goku during the Buu Saga. That would mean anyone who is capable of lifting the Z sword would be High 4-C by scaling above Shin. Since the Z Sword can't even scratch Regular Katchin, anyone that can damage it should scale above it too

 

[LightReinh12345]

Shin literally couldn't free the Z sword nor could he lift it, while Base Gohan in the Buu Saga could. As well as Base Goku during the Buu Saga. That would mean anyone who is capable of lifting the Z sword would be High 4-C by scaling above Shin. Since the Z Sword can't even scratch Regular Katchin, anyone that can damage it should scale above it too

"At least High 4-C" For Base Saiyans

 

[LightReinh12345]

Btw Gohan Image Training If krillin would be useful or not for the tournament, so he put him against Basil & krillin lost there so Gohan shared his doubt with Goku & Goku told him not to worry krillin is Training Gohan & Goku both tested Krillin & was very much surprised & thought it would be more than enough & he was sorry for doubting Krillin implying he was confident that he could handle someone like Basil, also Basil is seemed to be relatively weaker than pride troopers & some other High 4-C rated fighters

 

[SSJRyu1]

I would personally give 18 and Ribriane 3-A. Ribriane is able to consistently push Vegeta and Goku, and force them to transform on more than one occasion and even push them still, and scales to others who can do the same. 18 is similar in power to Ribriane, and literally beats her so yeah. They even have feats being somewhat comparable to SSJB at times. If it was like once or twice then sure call it an outlier, but Ribriane pushes Goku and Vegeta even in transformed states multiple times.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Goku, and Gohan fought the Universe 9 brothers and thought all three of them were too easy. But they both were surprised by how much Krillin has grown, so Krillin should be no weaker than Basil who has his 4-B feat scaling from Buu.

@Antvasima AKM Sama was skeptical for certain points for why human characters are 4-B. He conceded on Pride Troopers examples that group effort makes them well above Napapa and Basil, but even 1/4th of that is still above them. But I think the brought up Mind training with Gohan and Goku clarifies 4-B underdogs. But 3-A stuff still have controversy.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

SSJRyu1 seems to make good points though.

 

[AKM sama]

he was sorry for doubting Krillin implying he was confident that he could handle someone like Basil

The whole point of that episode was that "power alone doesn't win you a tournament, and there are other things like experience, out of bounds rules, techniques that matter too". The exact opposite of what you said was implied. Krillin was portrayed as being weaker than Basil, but Gohan thought he could still keep up with all the other things he's got going for him. Sure, he got a boost, that's unquantifiable.

 

[LightReinh12345]

The whole point of that episode was that "power alone doesn't win you a tournament, and there are other things like experience, out of bounds rules, techniques that matter too". The exact opposite of what you said was implied. Krillin was portrayed as being weaker than Basil, but Gohan thought he could still keep up with all the other things he's got going for him. Sure, he got a boost, that's unquantifiable.

While the first point is true about the purpose of the Episode the second wasn't , Krillin was using techniques against Basil in the Image fight as well still he lost he couldn't physically Tank that many Attacks from Basil but later they were confident enough to do that also not only techniques alone save you in dragon Ball u need to be somewhat physically comparable to keep up with your opponent sure weaker opponents can beat Stronger ones with tactics & techniques but you need to be physically somewhat comparable or else u can't if that was the case Goku would beat frieza without Super Saiyan back then or Krillin would beat Raditz back then
Also, Gohan didn't know Krillin was Training thats why he thought in Image Training krillin was weaker than Basil
Also EVEN in that fight where they didn't know Krillin's true strength krillin tanked several blows from Basil & they exchanged blows & this krillin was far weaker than the Original one since they didn't know the limits of his true power yet

 

[AKM sama]

sure weaker opponents can beat Stronger ones with tactics & techniques but you need to be physically somewhat comparable

Unless you are implying Krillin somehow is comparable to Gohan and Goku because he was able to beat Gohan and contend with Goku in those practice sessions, your point doesn't stand. There was no implication that Krilling got "strong" enough to contend with Basil, only that Krillin could contend with "stronger" opponents based on his skills, techniques, experience and rules.

Also EVEN in that fight where they didn't know Krillin's true strength krillin tanked several blows from Basil & they exchanged blows

Exchanging blows before getting stomped isn't a feat. And it was still an image training used to show how weak Krillin was, not an actual fight. You can't be serious about using this argument to scale Krillin to Basil.

 

[LightReinh12345]

Unless you are implying Krillin somehow is comparable to Gohan and Goku because he was able to beat Gohan and contend with Goku in those practice sessions, your point doesn't stand. There was no implication that Krilling got "strong" enough to contend with Basil, only that Krillin could contend with "stronger" opponents based on his skills, techniques, experience and rules.


Exchanging blows before getting stomped isn't a feat. And it was still an image training used to show how weak Krillin was, not an actual fight. You can't be serious about using this argument to scale Krillin to Basil.

Krillin indeed got Stronger it was heavily implied, also Krillin was tanking attacks from majora (who said "I eill use all my strength to beat you) who was Pushing 18 who knocked out Trio pride troopers so not only Basil (let alone the fact Basil & Napapa are from the two weakest Universes) & Image Training is the way they gaze their powers
Gohan & Goku knows & can gaze their power so why not i don't See any valide reason
Like I said u cant beat far Stronger opponents with techniques alone u need to be physically somewhat comparable in Dragon Ball, Krillin physically fought with many opponents Stronger than him but if the GAP was that astronomical (Goku & Gohan Holding back against krillin so that Argument isnt that good btw) they would beat up no High 4-C can beat a 4-B who is very much above baseline in Dragon Ball, Give me an example that happened before Otherwise I don't any valide Argument why krillin shouldn't scale to 4-B characters
Also By Default any character even scale to Base Gohan Buu Saga should be "At least High 4-C" let alone much superior
(On side Note if that yardratian from U2 scales to 4-B for fighting a heavily suppressed Gohan well krillin & Tien fought that one too lol & honjiru monjiru'd
Roshi fought a heavily suppressed Goku too by that logic lol)

 

[AKM sama]

Also By Default any character even scale to Base Gohan Buu Saga should be "At least High 4-C" let alone much superior

I agree with this point. Though I already talked about the rest of the points and feel like it's going in circles. Krillin scales a bit below 18, who spent all these years as a mother without getting any training. Her scaling is all over the place, at some points she is implied to be stronger than Krillin, at other times she has difficulties with opponents Krillin could beat. Caulifla beating Napapa is a non-point because Caulifla is already 3-A. Using that to say the Pride Troopers should be 4-B makes no sense, because if you are using Caulifla for scaling, everybody in the ToP would be 3-A.

 

[LordTracer]

Krillin scales a bit below 18

I’ll ask again because nobody answered last time. If this is the case, then why does Krillin’s profile say he only scales to a suppressed 18?

Her scaling is all over the place, at some points she is implied to be stronger than Krillin, at other times she has difficulties with opponents Krillin could beat.

Yeah... that’s kind of why the suggestion for her scaling is ‘At least 4-B, possibly 3-A.’

 

[LightReinh12345]

I agree with this point. Though I already talked about the rest of the points and feel like it's going in circles. Krillin scales a bit below 18, who spent all these years as a mother without getting any training. Her scaling is all over the place, at some points she is implied to be stronger than Krillin, at other times she has difficulties with opponents Krillin could beat. Caulifla beating Napapa is a non-point because Caulifla is already 3-A. Using that to say the Pride Troopers should be 4-B makes no sense, because if you are using Caulifla for scaling, everybody in the ToP would be 3-A.

Well we suggest At least 4-B, possibly 3-A thats why & we are saying pride troopers gave Caulifla & Kale far more "struggle" than napapa indeed & that punching guy also yeah pride troopers should scale to Kale & Caulifla & C-18 making them At least 4-B, Possibly 3-A

 

[AKM sama]

No, we are not giving everybody in the ToP including Roshi, Tien and Krillin 3-A ratings. Instead of justifying inconsistent showings, you should accept that these are inconsistencies which the ToP is full of.

why does Krillin’s profile say he only scales to a suppressed 18?

Probably because 18 is portrayed to be stronger than Krillin, so he scales to a suppressed 18. You can change the wording to "he scales below 18", it will mean the same thing.

we are saying pride troopers gave Caulifla & Kale far more "struggle" than napapa

Again, I am saying that logic is faulty. Napapa should not have made Caulifla "struggle". And you cannot measure the amount of struggle when all showings are inconsistent. ToP is full of showings where a far weaker opponent makes a far stronger opponent "struggle". That's how we have nonsensical ideas like "Oh Roshi made Frost "struggle" so he is 3-A now". If you nitpick every scene in the ToP you can upgrade everyone to 3-A. And I can do the opposite.

Since Napapa made Caulifla struggle and gave her a fight before going down, and Napapa is only 4-B scaling from Basil, Caulifla should be downgraded to 4-B. If Caulifla is 4-B, Cabba is also 4-B. Continue the chain and almost every 3-A character gets downgraded to 4-B, including the 3-As of U7. And a decent argument can be and has been made for this case too.

This is exactly why the ratings are the way they are. Instead of scaling everyone to everyone based on little showings of skirmishes, so that everyone and their mothers are either upgraded to 3-A or downgraded to 4-B, let the fodders be fodders and the top-tiers be top-tiers.

 

[LordTracer]

If Caulifla is 4-B, Cabba is also 4-B

Your logic is faulty here because Cabba has a blatant 3-A statement from Vegeta.

Also I’d like to note that literally nobody suggested giving Tenshinhan, Krillin or Roshi 3-A, the only people that would get ‘possibly 3-A’ would be C-18, Ribrianne and the Pride Troopers (who again, all of them have more 3-A in their justifications than anything else).

Instead of scaling everyone to everyone based on little showings of skirmishes, so that everyone and their mothers are either upgraded to 3-A or downgraded to 4-B, let the fodders be fodders and the top-tiers be top-tiers.

You’re acting like the goal is to make literally every single person in the ToP 3-A when thats clearly not what’s being argued here. And just calling characters fodder isn’t an argument, you can’t just go ‘this character is fodder because I said so.’

Probably because 18 is portrayed to be stronger than Krillin, so he scales to a suppressed 18. You can change the wording to "he scales below 18", it will mean the same thing.

So then you can’t use Krillin as a counterpoint if you admit he’s beneath 18...

 

[LightReinh12345]

No, we are not giving everybody in the ToP including Roshi, Tien and Krillin 3-A ratings. Instead of justifying inconsistent showings, you should accept that these are inconsistencies which the ToP is full of.


Probably because 18 is portrayed to be stronger than Krillin, so he scales to a suppressed 18. You can change the wording to "he scales below 18", it will mean the same thing.


Again, I am saying that logic is faulty. Napapa should not have made Caulifla "struggle". And you cannot measure the amount of struggle when all showings are inconsistent. ToP is full of showings where a far weaker opponent makes a far stronger opponent "struggle". That's how we have nonsensical ideas like "Oh Roshi made Frost "struggle" so he is 3-A now". If you nitpick every scene in the ToP you can upgrade everyone to 3-A. And I can do the opposite.

Since Napapa made Caulifla struggle and gave her a fight before going down, and Napapa is only 4-B scaling from Basil, Caulifla should be downgraded to 4-B. If Caulifla is 4-B, Cabba is also 4-B. Continue the chain and almost every 3-A character gets downgraded to 4-B, including the 3-As of U7. And a decent argument can be and has been made for this case too.

This is exactly why the ratings are the way they are. Instead of scaling everyone to everyone based on little showings of skirmishes, so that everyone and their mothers are either upgraded to 3-A or downgraded to 4-B, let the fodders be fodders and the top-tiers be top-tiers.

U didn't understand what we are saying I didn't say to give humans 3-A rating
Caulifla didn't struggle against napapa & that punching guy that much but she & kale nearly lost against pride troopers there is difference between that clearly
Also idk why do U think they are "much weaker" in the first place , most of them didn't even debut before ToP
& the appeal for C-18 & Ribrianne & Pride Troopers are at least 4-B , possibly 3-A & for others only 4-B no one is arguing every character 3-A
Also idk on what Basis U are calling them Fodder since most of them didn't have any showing before or after the tournament

 

[AKM sama]

Your logic is faulty here because Cabba has a blatant 3-A statement from Vegeta.

You didn't read because I said it will effect Vegeta too. Vegeta gets downgraded to 4-B by that logic.

Also I’d like to note that literally nobody suggested giving Tenshinhan, Krillin or Roshi 3-A, the only people that would get ‘possibly 3-A’ would be C-18, Ribrianne and the Pride Troopers (who again, all of them have more 3-A in their justifications than anything else).

But it's the same argument. Currently we treat it an outlier for 18 and Ribrianne due to the sheer inconsistency to scale to 3-A. But you are still making the argument for them to scale. If they scale, the argument for these characters to scale is just as valid as yours.

So then you can’t use Krillin as a counterpoint if you admit he’s beneath 18...

Not by much. He still scales.

 

[LordTracer]

You didn't read because I said it will effect Vegeta too. Vegeta gets downgraded to 4-B by that logic.

No...? Why would that effect Vegeta, when he scales above Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods?

But it's the same argument. Currently we treat it an outlier for 18 and Ribrianne due to the sheer inconsistency to scale to 3-A. But you are still making the argument for them to scale. If they scale, the argument for these characters to scale is just as valid as yours.

Apart from arguably Roshi, neither Krillin nor Tenshinhan can consistently be argued to 3-A like C-18, Ribrianne or the Pride Troopers.

Krillin himself said base Gohan couldn’t go all-out against him and it was directly stated that Krillin stood no chance against Goku in raw power. So there’s no arguments for him to scale, and I don’t know where you’d even begin to try to scale Tenshinhan.

Not by much. He still scales.

Not really tbh. The people that fought Krillin and C-18 were only able to affect her while she was either off-guard or not expecting it, so there’s no real reason for Krillin to scale to her (just like there’s no reason for C-18 to be scaling to Tenshinhan, which is literally the only reason that she’s High 4-C).

 

[AKM sama]

No...? Why would that effect Vegeta, when he scales above Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods?

Because you can argue that the showings of ToP scaling from characters like Krillin and 18 are more consistent with the entire cast of DBS and the one-off feat in BoG was an outlier.

like C-18, Ribrianne or the Pride Troopers.

Those aren't 3-A either. The only one that even got the rating was Ribrianne but it was removed from her because people started making threads demanding 18 to be universal as well. 18 is not going to be universal because there is zero explanation in the story that she grew any stronger when she did not even train for all these years and was portrayed as being comparable to Krillin, evenly matching Shosa who was only about as strong as Krillin and Majora briefly surviving against her. I am sorry, but I am just repeating myself now so I'll just say that I vehemently disagree with 18 being upgraded and leave it at that.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM:

So what, if any, changes do you think should be done here?

 

[LordTracer]

Because you can argue that the showings of ToP scaling from characters like Krillin and 18 are more consistent with the entire cast of DBS and the one-off feat in BoG was an outlier.

Except as I explained in my last post, Krillin doesn’t have any way of scaling to the Saiyans. And considering that we have feats of base Goku sparring with Beerus, the BoG scaling isn’t a one-off thing.

18 is not going to be universal because there is zero explanation in the story that she grew any stronger when she did not even train for all these years and was portrayed as being comparable to Krillin, evenly matching Shosa who was only about as strong as Krillin and Majora briefly surviving against her.

Can we stop with the “there’s no explanation so it can’t happen?” Was there any explanation for C-17 getting to SSB level despite being on an island and fighting 10-B poachers? Was there any explanation for Roshi becoming strong enough to fight Freeza soldiers in RoF? Was there any explanation for Gohan surpassing his Ultimate form in RoF despite barely being able to go Super Saiyan?

I already explained why Shosa and Majora wouldn’t scale to 18, and I would appreciate if you actually acknowledged that Ribrianne, C-18 and the Pride Troopers have feats of fighting 3-As, which are far more consistent than High 4-C, which they only scale to because of a baseless assumption that they scale to Tenshinhan, a baseless assumption that you still have not justified.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally do not mind if we give the most uncertain DBS characters, such as Ribrianne and 18, "At least 4-B, at most 3-A" ratings.

 

[AKM sama]

Was there any explanation for C-17 getting to SSB level despite being on an island and fighting 10-B poachers?

Yes, he said he trained for several years and there are interviews of the author saying the same. Doesn't matter if the explanation if vague and isn't to your liking, there is still one.

Was there any explanation for Roshi becoming strong enough to fight Freeza soldiers in RoF?

The boost was quite small and believable given Roshi came to fight despite sitting out in previous fights of DBZ. He was probably training in secret like he told us later.

Was there any explanation for Gohan surpassing his Ultimate form in RoF despite barely being able to go Super Saiyan?

The whole point of Ultimate form was to not go super saiyan. Him not being able to maintain super saiyan doesn't mean he can't be that strong as his previous self.

I have also explained why Shosa and Majora do scale to 18 and Krillin. And 18 and Pride Troopers are far more consistently High 4-C. The idea of them being 3-A has been rejected several times and you have brought nothing new.

So what, if any, changes do you think should be done here?

There needs to be a discussion rule putting a stop to threads about Ribrianne and 18. This topic has been debated many times and it's tiring to do the same song and dance again and again and again until one side just gives up because they don't have the energy to continue. And seriously, this is one of the main complaints people have. If a discussion rule can't be made, please don't ping me ever again in these threads. I don't have the time and energy to repeat everything that has been discussed and addressed in the past threads that can be easily checked by anyone.

 

[LordTracer]

The boost was quite small and believable given Roshi came to fight despite sitting out in previous fights of DBZ. He was probably training in secret like he told us later.

Can you prove he was for sure training in secret though?

The whole point of Ultimate form was to not go super saiyan. Him not being able to maintain super saiyan doesn't mean he can't be that strong as his previous self.

Gohan was clearly portrayed as weaker than normal during RoF, because he hadn’t been keeping up with his training, yet he somehow still scales above his Ultimate Form? This was never explained.

I have also explained why Shosa and Majora do scale to 18 and Krillin. And 18 and Pride Troopers are far more consistently High 4-C. The idea of them being 3-A has been rejected several times and you have brought nothing new.

No, you really didn’t. You just said they did without acknowledging what I said. And no, you have not explained why they are more consistently High 4-C and you still aren’t explaining why they are being scaled to Tenshinhan of all people. And literally look at the Pride Troopers’ justifications, it is more 3-A than anything else because they’re being scaled to Caulifla and Kale.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM:

Okay. I suppose that we should either create a discussion rule or give them uncertain ratings then.

 

[LordTracer]

Seriously, can someone please explain why C-18 and Ribrianne are scaled to Tenshinhan despite neither of them ever sparring or fighting with him? Because as far as I can see, that’s the only reason why they’re High 4-C.

 

[AKM sama]

If you want to discuss the specifics of Roshi and Gohan, please make a Q&A thread for them. Whataboutism isn't relevant here. The fact remains that Android 18 is still about as strong as she previously was because she never trained and spent all her time being a mother and wife. Her growing to 3-A out of nowhere makes no sense. Krillin scales to her because he has fought alongside her and with opponents that were able to match her but still a bit below because he is portrayed as the weaker one out of the two. They all (Tien, who is probably the weakest in U7 that everyone upscales to and other fodders) scale above base Gohan from the Buu saga because they all were able to break Katchi Katchin.

 

[LordTracer]

If you want to discuss the specifics of Roshi and Gohan, please make a Q&A thread for them. Whataboutism isn't relevant here. The fact remains that Android 18 is still as strong as she previously was because she never trained and spent all her time being a mother and wife. Krillin scales to her because he has fought alongside her and with opponents that were able to match her but still a bit below because he is portrayed as the weaker one out of the two. They all (Tien and other fodders) scale above base Gohan from the Buu saga because they all were able to break Katchi Katchin.

No, no, no. You said 18 can’t scale because her increase in power wasn’t explained, so I’m going to bring up similar examples. You can’t just ignore them because they go against your point.

Also we’ve seen 18 sparring with Krillin, so saying she didn’t ever train is dishonest. Shosa and Majora did not match 18, as I explained and you had no response to, they either hit her when she was off-guard or not expecting it, and they didn’t even trade blows with her, they just hit her once or twice.

Fighting alongside someone also doesn’t mean you’re comparable to them, Piccolo and Gohan fought alongside each other but Gohan >>>>> Piccolo. 18’s fought alongside 17, but 17 >>> 18. Base Goku fought alongside 17 at the end of the ToP and we don’t consider them equals. 17 fought alongside SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta and we don’t consider them equals. Shall I go on? Because I can think of more examples.

 

[AKM sama]

You said 18 can’t scale because her increase in power wasn’t explained, so I’m going to bring up similar examples. You can’t just ignore them because they go against your point.

But you are not bringing up similar examples. The examples you are bringing up had a small boost that is easily believable given the time period. Gohan getting a little stronger within the same tier. Roshi getting a little stronger within the same tier. 18 also got a little stronger, but within the same tier. To say that she has a meteoric rise just because of a midday training session with Krillin is ridiculous. Even the show itself did not recognize the magnitude of boost you are implying when it hammered it home for Gohan and 17's boosts who were blatantly explicitly shown and explained to grow to that level of power.

Shosa and Majora did not match 18

Yes because exchanging several blows without taking any damage is not matching? Android 18 hits Shosa with a pretty strong kick and she can blatantly be seen as quite angry in that scene, when she is usually known to show no expression. And Shosa blocks it like nothing. And the off-guard thing you are talking about, even after being hit once when she was off-guard, she was getting visibly hurt by the continuous barrage of his attacks which happened over a relatively long period of time. Majora took no damage and didn't show any signs of pain after being kicked by Android 18. Also, you'd think that if 18 was so much stronger than Shosa, she wouldn't have to combine her energy with Krillin in order to defeat him. That's what I was referring to when I said fighting alongside.

 

[LordTracer]

But you are not bringing up similar examples. The examples you are bringing up had a small boost that is easily believable given the time period. Gohan getting a little stronger within the same tier. Roshi getting a little stronger within the same tier. 18 also got a little stronger, but within the same tier.

Except Gohan was portrayed as being significantly weaker, which is the point I’m trying to make here. He’s portrayed as weaker because he hadn’t been training, to the point that he later asked Piccolo to train him, but he still somehow one-shots someone beyond his Ultimate form? That’s not a small boost, that’s quite a large one. Also 18 isn’t within the same tier regardless, she’s going from baseline 4-C to some degree of above baseline High 4-C. That’s nearly a 6x increase, that’s neither small nor in the same tier, so...

To say that she has a meteoric rise just because of a midday training session with Krillin is ridiculous.

Something being “ridiculous” is just argument from incredulity.

Even the show itself did not recognize the magnitude of boost you are implying when it hammered it home for Gohan and 17's boosts who were blatantly explicitly shown and explained to grow to that level of power.

Gohan in RoF had no such explanation. He’s implied to be weaker, it anything. Definitely not stronger, and definitely not stronger to the point where he can one-shot someone above his previous peak.

Yes because exchanging several blows without taking any damage is not matching.

Oh, you mean mean when 18 casually overpowered him and dodged all of his strikes?

Also, you'd think that if 18 was so much stronger than Majora,

Oh right, I forgot, you think I’m arguing for her to be straight 3-A and not ‘At least 4-B, possibly 3-A’ (although I like Ant’s suggestion of ‘4-B, at most 3-A’ better) High 4-C to 4-B apparently isn’t that much of a difference considering how we treat those tiers for these characters.