Massive Dragon Ball Super Downgrade

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Why?

Constant derailing. Being incredibly discourteous to the OP and their original point etc etc.

 

[Veronica]

Constant derailing. Being incredibly discourteous to the OP and their original point etc etc.

I am just correcting his mistakes as SBG got abandoned, since U6 arc and he agreed with me. Also calling arguments silly or absurd isn't rude. Stop conflating arguments with the person self.

 

[Damage3245]

Veronica, I've already asked you to drop this. This thread isn't to remove that concept entirely but to fix the scaling.

 

[Veronica]

Veronica, I've already asked you to drop this. This thread isn't to remove that concept entirely but to fix the scaling.

You can't fix the scaling with something that doesn't exist since U6 arc. If you somehow proof SBG exists. Than you contradict it with SSG being a transformation.

 

[Vietthai96]

I swear, this got extremely derailed, i just gone for two days and is completely lost

Veronica, I've already asked you to drop this. This thread isn't to remove that concept entirely but to fix the scaling.

Anyway, what is the current verdict Damage, the mixed-in anime completely lost me

 

[Damage3245]

Anyway, what is the current verdict Damage, the mixed-in anime completely lost me

Based on current staff votes the gist of the OP is accepted. I'm going to write up new justifications soon for the affected characters and post them here.

 

[Golden_Void]

The issue I have with the way this quote is being used is that Damage assumes this means a black-haired Saiyan using SSG-like power. Whereas from the manga itself, Bulma states Goku doesn't look any different (and others say minus the hair.) I think SSG also satisfies the description for "not changing form." "It is said that Saiyans can gain control of god-like power" is literally the description of the legend of Super Saiyan God. It even says "beyond legend" in the same quote. How could anybody say "it is said" when that form hasn't been displayed to us through the main Saiyans? That information would have to long predate what we already know.

This is still a question, idk if anyone brought it up already

 

[Vietthai96]

Based on current staff votes the gist of the OP is accepted. I'm going to write up new justifications soon for the affected characters and post them here.

Just to be sure, base goku and vegeta from ToP arc will still retain 2-C right??

 

[Hasty12345]

Based on current staff votes the gist of the OP is accepted. I'm going to write up new justifications soon for the affected characters and post them here.

Would it be worth closing this thread until those justifications are done to avoid any more derailing?

 

[Veronica]

This is still a question, idk if anyone brought it up already

Saiyan who has surpassed a God also called God-like Saiyan, is an empowered state undertaken by a Saiyan who gains the ability to utilize the power of Super Saiyan God without having to change into the form. That's why its called god-like.

 

[Golden_Void]

Saiyan who has surpassed a God also called God-like Saiyan, is an empowered state undertaken by a Saiyan who gains the ability to utilize the power of Super Saiyan God without having to change into the form. That's why its called god-like.

That didn't address any of my concerns. SSG can also be called god-like power considering Beerus tells Goku he's doing well adapting to the power of a god, and Goku isn't a god.

Also, proof of the bold?

 

[Veronica]

That didn't address any of my concerns. SSG can also be called god-like power considering Beerus tells Goku he's doing well adapting to the power of a god, and Goku isn't a god.

Also, proof of the bold?

Forget the "surpassed" part. Also SSG there is never called god-like, but it's basically saying "SSG is walking in the steps to GoD level, but still far from it".

 

[Golden_Void]

Forget the "surpassed" part. Also SSG there is never called god-like, but it's basically saying "SSG is walking in the steps to GoD level, but far from it".

You would have to ignore nearly the entirety of what I was originally asking for your argument to be based on semantics. Power of a god is quite literally god-like.

 

[Veronica]

You would have to ignore nearly the entirety of what I was originally asking for your argument to be based on semantics. Power of a god is quite literally god-like.

Power of a god isn't god-like. It's literally calling it god power. So how is SSG god-like, explain it to me?

 

[Golden_Void]

Power of a god isn't god-like. It's literally calling it god power. So how is SSG god-like, explain it to me?

"Noun" of a "noun" describes a relationship where the first noun possesses qualities or similarities of the second noun. But just because something possesses similar qualities, does not make it that something.

God-like is simply strength on the level of the gods (which seems to generally refer to as gods of destruction since nobody cares about Dende or Shin). Just like Zamasu could only turn regular SSJ at first because Goku's body was all Goku cells, but when Zamasu's divine cells and soul finally took over, he achieved an entirely different transformation because he is a god.

The likelihood of SBG being referred to as god-like, when the above context that you're still ignoring from my original quote exists, is slim and has less evidence supporting that than SSG.

 

[Veronica]

"Noun" of a "noun" describes a relationship where the first noun possesses qualities or similarities of the second noun. But just because something possesses similar qualities, does not make it that something.

God-like is simply strength on the level of the gods (which seems to generally refer to as gods of destruction since nobody cares about Dende or Shin). Just like Zamasu could only turn regular SSJ at first because Goku's body was all Goku cells, but when Zamasu's divine cells and soul finally took over, he achieved an entirely different transformation because he is a god.

The likelihood of SBG being referred to as god-like, when the above context that you're still ignoring from my original quote exists, is slim and has less evidence supporting that than SSG.

It doesn't matter if you call it SBG or SSG. I don't even understand what your point is. The fact remains only SSB is 50x as your second shows it.

Your scan literally proofs my point. As Zamasu says "when a divine being surpasses SSG it becomes pink instead of blue". Showing again only SSB is 50x SSG.

 

[Shadyboi0]

10/10 yap session. What are the profiles gonna look like?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Oh my god, YES! Finally someone had the balls to say it. Base Goku being Low Multiversal was so iffy.

I agree, no questions asked. Furthermore, I'd like to ask. Do you intend to ever tackle this "all DB media has the same cosmology" bullshit soon? The manga version having the same dimensions as anime/movies is just... No.

One more thing,

DUE TO SCALING
DAMAGE'S POINT ABOUT THE GOKU VS TOPPO MATCH BECOMES MEANINGLESS
BECAUSE SINCE VEGETA SCALES ABOVE HIS OWN SSJB FORM IN BLACK'S ARC
GOKU AND VEGETA ARE STILL WITHIN LOW MULTIVERSAL POWER IN THEIR BASE FORM
SO THIS IS JUST SEMANTICS​

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean yeah, when it comes to hashing out the scaling (since the thread's premise is accepted), I would very much say that by the Goku Black Arc, Base Goku and Vegeta are 2-C via scaling anyway. That's something I hold firm to

As for the cosmology stuff I'm admittedly a bit biased because before that came around, DBS had a scaling progression of 3-A to Low 2-C to 2-C courtesy of yours truly...

 

[Veronica]

Oh my god, YES! Finally someone had the balls to say it. Base Goku being Low Multiversal was so iffy.

I agree, no questions asked. Furthermore, I'd like to ask. Do you intend to ever tackle this "all DB media has the same cosmology" bullshit soon? The manga version having the same dimensions as anime/movies is just... No.

One more thing,

DUE TO SCALING
DAMAGE'S POINT ABOUT THE GOKU VS TOPPO MATCH BECOMES MEANINGLESS
BECAUSE SINCE VEGETA SCALES ABOVE HIS OWN SSJB FORM IN BLACK'S ARC
GOKU AND VEGETA ARE STILL WITHIN LOW MULTIVERSAL POWER IN THEIR BASE FORM
SO THIS IS JUST SEMANTICS​

I already debunked that weird interpretation with Beerus statement:
https://ibb.co/K21hthr

 

[Golden_Void]

It doesn't matter if you call it SBG or SSG. I don't even understand what your point is. The fact remains only SSB is 50x as your second shows it.

So your scan literally proofs my point. As Zamasu says "when a divine being surpasses SSG it becomes pink instead of blue". Showing again only SSB is 50x SSG.

You clearly don't understand my point cause what are you talking about

I'm saying the original post interprets this scan SBG = god-like power, when SSG = also god-like power but backed by more evidence. It then goes on to say:

What this implies is that when Goku is "gaining control of god-like power without changing form" he is effectively using Super Saiyan God without transforming. It's not a case of him simply permanently raising his base stats to be equal to Super Saiyan God.

So this interpretation has Goku gaining the power of SSG without being in the form (thereby losing all benefits of the godly ki/ control that it grants and immediately becoming much weaker over time), which makes SSG useless. Then initially uses cross-canon by referencing the RoF movie, but not going as far to claim Goku gained the power of SSG which then could be the baseline for other forms (like the anime.) Then finally claims that using god-like power in base makes you as strong as SSG, but attempting to transform will only result in blue. When logically, having the same god-like power in base without being in a god form just means you have stronger ki in base, does it not?

No mention is made of him having a separate "Saiyan Beyond God" form so in order for this count to make sense, Goku's earlier usage of "God-like power" must be his Super Saiyan God form.

Even if this wasn't the case, SBG isn't a transformation. This would be like Whis including kaio-ken as a transformation. Long story short, SBG isn't a necessary addition; I agree with everything else.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I mean yeah, when it comes to hashing out the scaling (since the thread's premise is accepted), I would very much say that by the Goku Black Arc, Base Goku and Vegeta are 2-C via scaling anyway. That's something I hold firm to

As for the cosmology stuff I'm admittedly a bit biased because before that came around, DBS had a scaling progression of 3-A to Low 2-C to 2-C courtesy of yours truly...

The entire foundation for this composite cosmology BS is the fact Akira was involved in most series. Like, how does that stop the very independent writers who are free to write filler from creating their own ideas for dimensions? Why would DBS Manga have to share the same dimensions as DBGT for example?

Anyway, this would only change very early DBS, but characters would still go back to 2-C unexplainably. 2-C Krillin is still a thing even though there's no explanation.

 

[Veronica]

The entire foundation for this composite cosmology BS is the fact Akira was involved in most series. Like, how does that stop the very independent writers who are free to write filler from creating their own ideas for dimensions? Why would DBS Manga have to share the same dimensions as DBGT for example?

Anyway, this would only change very early DBS, but characters would still go back to 2-C unexplainably. 2-C Krillin is still a thing even though there's no explanation.

Yeah, it's weird. I can't use the Super anime to infer some things from the Super manga, but you can use GT to upscale Super manga and anime cosmology. Like, whut...

 

[CloverDragon03]

The entire foundation for this composite cosmology BS is the fact Akira was involved in most series. Like, how does that stop the very independent writers who are free to write filler from creating their own ideas for dimensions? Why would DBS Manga have to share the same dimensions as DBGT for example?

Anyway, this would only change very early DBS, but characters would still go back to 2-C unexplainably. 2-C Krillin is still a thing even though there's no explanation.

I'd like to talk about this more, but if you do too, let's keep it off the thread since this would be derailing from the original premise

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I'd like to talk about this more, but if you do too, let's keep it off the thread since this would be derailing from the original premise

I mean... Thread is over, Damage's gonna make the changes very soon.

 

[Veronica]

Oh my god, YES! Finally someone had the balls to say it. Base Goku being Low Multiversal was so iffy.

I agree, no questions asked. Furthermore, I'd like to ask. Do you intend to ever tackle this "all DB media has the same cosmology" bullshit soon? The manga version having the same dimensions as anime/movies is just... No.

One more thing,

DUE TO SCALING
DAMAGE'S POINT ABOUT THE GOKU VS TOPPO MATCH BECOMES MEANINGLESS
BECAUSE SINCE VEGETA SCALES ABOVE HIS OWN SSJB FORM IN BLACK'S ARC
GOKU AND VEGETA ARE STILL WITHIN LOW MULTIVERSAL POWER IN THEIR BASE FORM
SO THIS IS JUST SEMANTICS​

I said something very similar to Damage's post a year ago and got blasted, but at least 2-C Krillin meme is death.

 

[Omegabronic]

The entire foundation for this composite cosmology BS is the fact Akira was involved in most series.

not currently, the justification in the verse page is simply because they are in the same multiverse and have no reason to vary in cosmology, the thread trying to umcomposite them was locked due to clogg, @Deagonx and @Damage3245 said they would create another one staff only to solve that, but that was months ago, so, meh

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

DUE TO SCALING
DAMAGE'S POINT ABOUT THE GOKU VS TOPPO MATCH BECOMES MEANINGLESS
BECAUSE SINCE VEGETA SCALES ABOVE HIS OWN SSJB FORM IN BLACK'S ARC
GOKU AND VEGETA ARE STILL WITHIN LOW MULTIVERSAL POWER IN THEIR BASE FORM
​

I mean yeah, when it comes to hashing out the scaling (since the thread's premise is accepted), I would very much say that by the Goku Black Arc, Base Goku and Vegeta are 2-C via scaling anyway. That's something I hold firm to

Yea, the black arc is where their base entered 2C objectively tbh

 

[Veronica]

Yea, the black arc is where their base entered 2C objectively tbh

There is nothing objective about Vegeta and Goku getting "200,000x" stronger. That's a bigger boost than when they achieved SSG for the first time. So basically they got a ritual boost again on steroids level.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

There is nothing objective about Vegeta and Goku getting "200,000x" stronger. That's a bigger boost than when they achieved SSG for the first time. So basically they got a ritual boost again on steroids level.

So? Incredulity isn't a counterpoint

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Oh my god, YES! Finally someone had the balls to say it. Base Goku being Low Multiversal was so iffy.

I agree, no questions asked. Furthermore, I'd like to ask. Do you intend to ever tackle this "all DB media has the same cosmology" bullshit soon? The manga version having the same dimensions as anime/movies is just... No.

One more thing,

DUE TO SCALING
DAMAGE'S POINT ABOUT THE GOKU VS TOPPO MATCH BECOMES MEANINGLESS
BECAUSE SINCE VEGETA SCALES ABOVE HIS OWN SSJB FORM IN BLACK'S ARC
GOKU AND VEGETA ARE STILL WITHIN LOW MULTIVERSAL POWER IN THEIR BASE FORM
SO THIS IS JUST SEMANTICS​

I tried here but deagon forgot or didn’t bother to remake it in a staff thread like he said and everything died

 

[Veronica]

I tried here but deagon forgot or didn’t bother to remake it in a staff thread like he said and everything died

You can message him to do so accordingly.

 

[Bernkastelll]

• Future Trunks
• Goku Black (Pre-Zamasu Heal)

I agree, but why exactly goku black and future trunks would lose their ratings?

 

[Damage3245]

I agree, but why exactly goku black and future trunks would lose their ratings?

With Super Saiyan 2/3 Goku no longer being 2-C, Future Trunks who is comparable to him would no longer be 2-C.

 

[Veronica]

With Super Saiyan 2/3 Goku no longer being 2-C, Future Trunks who is comparable to him would no longer be 2-C.

Also the baseline level will be effected to, since manga U6 Hit is SSB Goku level, but it was mistakely taken as 10,000,000 times SSG multiplier, but now Hit is at least 50x BoG SSG Goku level, since Goku got slightly stronger. In my opinion he should be 75x BoG SSG level.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

not currently, the justification in the verse page is simply because they are in the same multiverse and have no reason to vary in cosmology, the thread trying to umcomposite them was locked due to clogg, @Deagonx and @Damage3245 said they would create another one staff only to solve that, but that was months ago, so, meh

THAT'S STILL NONSENSE!

It doesn't matter if it's a grand multiverse, each series is written by a different author and elements from each series are still unique to their own. Like BRUH.

Please, let Deagonx make a thread to uncomposite that stuff.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

With Super Saiyan 2/3 Goku no longer being 2-C, Future Trunks who is comparable to him would no longer be 2-C.

Later on, Trunks keeps up with post-heal Rose Black, so he'd get his 2-C back within a few chapters no?

 

[Veronica]

Later on, Trunks keeps up with post-heal Rose Black, so he'd get his 2-C back within a few chapters no?

It was a small boost confirmed by Beerus.

 

[Damage3245]

Later on, Trunks keeps up with post-heal Rose Black, so he'd get his 2-C back within a few chapters no?

Nah, definitely not. He only succeeds in briefly distracting Goku Black before having to be rescued by the Kaio-shin. It's different in the anime IIRC.

THAT'S STILL NONSENSE!

It doesn't matter if it's a grand multiverse, each series is written by a different author and elements from each series are still unique to their own. Like BRUH.

Please, let Deagonx make a thread to uncomposite that stuff.

I agree a thread should be made on that - but this isn't the place to discuss it.

 

[Veronica]

Nah, definitely not. He only succeeds in briefly distracting Goku Black before having to be rescued by the Kaio-shin. It's different in the anime IIRC.


I agree a thread should be made on that - but this isn't the place to discuss it.

He is only around that level with SSJ Rage in the anime. He couldn't kill SSR Black with a max power blast meaning he is less than 1/3 than SSB Goku