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I been reading both sides, and while I do agree with some of AKM's skeptism; I think there are other points that need to be made.
I do agree that 3-A stuff is heavily inconsistent; it is true that Ribrianne has traded blows with 3-A characters more often then not. Vegeta trades blows with her both in his base form and in his SSB form. But he's typically the one how has a slight advantage no matter what form he has. It can be argued that the base form examples are due to Vegeta's multiple zenkais he gets during the tournament. Hence, one thing I have to be strongly blunt about is that Goku and Vegeta are universal tier in all their forms; period. The lore was brought up back in BoG saga, Goku's PL was higher in base form post instant zenkai than it was in SSG form pre-zenkai, and he still got much stronger when he transformed again. And literally all zenkais post that just keep getting crazier and crazier. Literally most of the time, zenkais boost them to the point where each post zenkai base form is stronger than each SSB/SSG Pre Zenkai. And this accordingly scales to characters who are either stronger than certain forms; including most of the U6 cast + Piccolo, Gohan, Frieza, and 17. The last 4 even matched or sometimes overpowered SSB Goku level things.
Saying they had little to no training doesn't really mean much anymore as of DBZ Super. Frieza grew went from High 5-A but Low 4-C in his strongest forms to At least 4-B in first form and easily 3-A and above in final form and Golden Form in less than 4 months; he grew faster than Goku and Vegeta did in 16 years. Piccolo and Gohan went from At least High 4-C and 4-B respectively to being 3-A before the U6 tournament; Goku was surprised Goku matched Frost who was thought to be stronger than Final form Frieza at the time. 17 went to being well into SSB tier via training from some random aliens. Piccolo and Gohan got much stronger; where the latter needed SSB Kaioken to take on and Vegeta was somewhat worried Gohan might have surpassed him. And Piccolo is still almost as strong as Ultimate Gohan returned. While I agree 18 appears to be a different can of worms as the only training was just her sparring with Krillin and still being stronger. It could be argued she was holding back as she's clearly much stronger still, but she still values that Krillin is much stronger than he ever was.
Also, yes techniques and hax to help against much stronger foes, but not if they're multiple AP and speed tiers above you. Krillin was able to cut Frieza with his destructo disk but not Cell. Gohan and Goku were easily holding back massively against Krillin, in Goku's case he was holding back with style. But it still surprised Gohan how much his power and speed grew. The poison also surprised Gohan a great deal, but it didn't stop Gohan from curbstomping Lavender. Also, the mind training was just a massively weaker version of Krillin and yet he was able to keep up with Basil. But now that Krillin has gotten much stronger, I see no reason that he simply cannot beat Basil. They even sensed his power level to have gotten a lot stronger to where it's like no weaker than Majin Buu. I do agree that 18 was holding back in her fights against Shosa and Majora however mostly because she wanted to see how much Krillin has grown.
I agree that "Power struggles" are hard to judge as some characters literally hold back a lot against obviously much weaker characters. Which is especially true on Goku's end. But in the case of the Universe 6 saiyans; Caulifa literally throws Napapa off the ring alot more casually than Goku dragged Botamo out of the ring. I think it's best said that any "Struggle" is more like a lifting strength one rather than an AP one. But Caulifa went SSJ2 against the 4 Pride Troopers and she had help from Kale. Being 1/4th of someone who is more than 100x baseline 3-A would still be 3-A. Though, I agree it's inconsistent but the Pride Troopers are definitely no weaker than Napapa or Basil. They're still noticably weaker than 18 and I agree that giving Goku who was just playing around a hassle doesn't mean anything. But 18 and Ribrianne when it comes to in tournament feats just have so much. We also can't ignore Ribrianne breaking 17's barrier; though I agree 17 might also be holding back. Honestly, 18 and Ribrianne are like the biggest center divide between top tiers and underdogs. Between Blue's paralysis not working on Tao, or the fact that Chiaotzu even with his hax is nothing compared to Tien; techniques only at best help against someone less than 100x stronger or less than 10x faster at best roughly in a usual setting. Though poison from 4-B was effective against 3-A under surprised circumstances. But Krillin's techniques aren't hax per say; they're just martial arts techniques that catch people off guard; which still requires somewhat comparable speed to those on par with Basil.
Anyway, I still don't think the humans should be any weaker than Basil or Napapa. So I think At least 4-B is a reasonable compromise to all those Pride Troopers, Krillin, Tien, Roshi, those who scale from them, and 18 and Ribrianne at their weakest. I'm neutral on possibly 3-A. But if that gets rejected, Discussion rule might be in order but it should be written appropriately. Now please excuse me while I hurry to RL work again.
I do agree that 3-A stuff is heavily inconsistent; it is true that Ribrianne has traded blows with 3-A characters more often then not. Vegeta trades blows with her both in his base form and in his SSB form. But he's typically the one how has a slight advantage no matter what form he has. It can be argued that the base form examples are due to Vegeta's multiple zenkais he gets during the tournament. Hence, one thing I have to be strongly blunt about is that Goku and Vegeta are universal tier in all their forms; period. The lore was brought up back in BoG saga, Goku's PL was higher in base form post instant zenkai than it was in SSG form pre-zenkai, and he still got much stronger when he transformed again. And literally all zenkais post that just keep getting crazier and crazier. Literally most of the time, zenkais boost them to the point where each post zenkai base form is stronger than each SSB/SSG Pre Zenkai. And this accordingly scales to characters who are either stronger than certain forms; including most of the U6 cast + Piccolo, Gohan, Frieza, and 17. The last 4 even matched or sometimes overpowered SSB Goku level things.
Saying they had little to no training doesn't really mean much anymore as of DBZ Super. Frieza grew went from High 5-A but Low 4-C in his strongest forms to At least 4-B in first form and easily 3-A and above in final form and Golden Form in less than 4 months; he grew faster than Goku and Vegeta did in 16 years. Piccolo and Gohan went from At least High 4-C and 4-B respectively to being 3-A before the U6 tournament; Goku was surprised Goku matched Frost who was thought to be stronger than Final form Frieza at the time. 17 went to being well into SSB tier via training from some random aliens. Piccolo and Gohan got much stronger; where the latter needed SSB Kaioken to take on and Vegeta was somewhat worried Gohan might have surpassed him. And Piccolo is still almost as strong as Ultimate Gohan returned. While I agree 18 appears to be a different can of worms as the only training was just her sparring with Krillin and still being stronger. It could be argued she was holding back as she's clearly much stronger still, but she still values that Krillin is much stronger than he ever was.
Also, yes techniques and hax to help against much stronger foes, but not if they're multiple AP and speed tiers above you. Krillin was able to cut Frieza with his destructo disk but not Cell. Gohan and Goku were easily holding back massively against Krillin, in Goku's case he was holding back with style. But it still surprised Gohan how much his power and speed grew. The poison also surprised Gohan a great deal, but it didn't stop Gohan from curbstomping Lavender. Also, the mind training was just a massively weaker version of Krillin and yet he was able to keep up with Basil. But now that Krillin has gotten much stronger, I see no reason that he simply cannot beat Basil. They even sensed his power level to have gotten a lot stronger to where it's like no weaker than Majin Buu. I do agree that 18 was holding back in her fights against Shosa and Majora however mostly because she wanted to see how much Krillin has grown.
I agree that "Power struggles" are hard to judge as some characters literally hold back a lot against obviously much weaker characters. Which is especially true on Goku's end. But in the case of the Universe 6 saiyans; Caulifa literally throws Napapa off the ring alot more casually than Goku dragged Botamo out of the ring. I think it's best said that any "Struggle" is more like a lifting strength one rather than an AP one. But Caulifa went SSJ2 against the 4 Pride Troopers and she had help from Kale. Being 1/4th of someone who is more than 100x baseline 3-A would still be 3-A. Though, I agree it's inconsistent but the Pride Troopers are definitely no weaker than Napapa or Basil. They're still noticably weaker than 18 and I agree that giving Goku who was just playing around a hassle doesn't mean anything. But 18 and Ribrianne when it comes to in tournament feats just have so much. We also can't ignore Ribrianne breaking 17's barrier; though I agree 17 might also be holding back. Honestly, 18 and Ribrianne are like the biggest center divide between top tiers and underdogs. Between Blue's paralysis not working on Tao, or the fact that Chiaotzu even with his hax is nothing compared to Tien; techniques only at best help against someone less than 100x stronger or less than 10x faster at best roughly in a usual setting. Though poison from 4-B was effective against 3-A under surprised circumstances. But Krillin's techniques aren't hax per say; they're just martial arts techniques that catch people off guard; which still requires somewhat comparable speed to those on par with Basil.
Anyway, I still don't think the humans should be any weaker than Basil or Napapa. So I think At least 4-B is a reasonable compromise to all those Pride Troopers, Krillin, Tien, Roshi, those who scale from them, and 18 and Ribrianne at their weakest. I'm neutral on possibly 3-A. But if that gets rejected, Discussion rule might be in order but it should be written appropriately. Now please excuse me while I hurry to RL work again.
