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Are you suggesting that Beerus cannot possibly hold himself back to be weaker than a fatigued Jiren?
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Massive Dragon Ball Super Downgrade
- Thread starter Damage3245
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No, Damage said weakened Jiren is 2-C because he was able to combat Golden Frieza and Enraged Final Form Frieza despite being tired. Hell, even though he's "considerably weakened," Goku and Vegeta claim he has drawn out MORE POWER-A significant amount left of his original that they simply couldn't have anticipated with their original estimation (which is what FORCES them to use their Dual Beam Attack). So it's pretty safe to say, with the WoV feat, Jiren's performance, and upscaling from Black Arc, that they're all 2-C here.
I'd argue, in fact, that they got 2-C in Base beforehand, (at this level start of tournament) because both Goku (less Goku because of the promise he made to Chi-Chi, but he still DID, he just stopped for a bit) and Vegeta trained in between the two arcs-So much so that Vegeta mastered SSB in between that gap. And we know that Goku and Vegeta were pretty comparable to each other in the Tournament. I just think it's more debatable there and more clear at the END of the Tournament.
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Beerus can hold back to be weaker than a weakened Jiren. My point is, you are assuming that a weakened GoD level tier is still 2-C. When the evidence suggest something different. Also I found a statement after the Future Trunks arc. Beerus saying to SSB Vegeta "Vegeta, you have grown a bit so quickly " and Whis says "you have grown as a warrior" that alone debunks the absurd got "200K times stronger" out of nowhere.
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I feel like we'll just go in circles here.
I am going to proceed with my own proposal. If after this thread you feel differently you can make your own thread on it.
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That's complete nonsense. We see far weaker character effecting Final Form Frieza and Jiren. Yet, no one thinks they are 2-C in power. Take the anime as an example base Goku was shown to be above Kale and Caulifla. Yet needed to go SSG, because he was extensive weakened in base.
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Why are you bringing up the anime here?
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Beerus statement utterly debunks the 200K growth nonsense. As he clearly states, that Vegeta grew a bit quickly.
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then they're 2-C as well
everyone except for you does.
who are both 2-C in base and in SSJ
Or they could've upped the pressure as well? did you miss the fact that base Goku was pressing SSJ2 Caulifla with Champa even wondering how thats possible? Going so far as to tank hits from her and more, and he only needed SSG for controlled-SSJ Kale which as we know is far stronger than a berserk Saiyan
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It's also in the manga. Where character transforms to X, yet are only base/SSJ1-3 level.
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newsflash: that logic is used by almost every verse including saint seiya. don't disparage the fandom if you wanna keep talking in these threads. You've been reported and banned multiple times for it
you dont seem to learn
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Except we see numerous times DB characters holding back to their enemy level. Cell didn't kick Krillin with solar-sysyem level AP, base Goku didn't punch Krillin in the face with 2-C AP, Beerus didn't hit Vegeta with 2-C AP, Jiren didn't punch Roshi with 2-C AP. Utter nonsense.
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yeah except we have actual tangible proof for those instances. Like if you're gonna use instances such as these to say that characters are almost never attacking at their rated force where does that end? you're gonna end up using examples of cell and buu kicking Mr Satan to prove your point now?
if that's the kind of bullshit you're after go and propose a rule for DB verse that treats it like Marvel and DC where characters aren't always rated to their full strength due to them holding back on multiple occasions
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Because we know for a fact that they are holding back. It's literally mentioned Cell wasn't it full power until he fought SSJ2 Gohan, Jiren only went full power against MUI Goku. The mr.Satan proofs my point, showing they can even hold back to human level. Now you have to say "Roshi can no sell BoG SSG Goku punch", because he took a punch from Jiren.
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Manga and anime shows numerous characters not fighting at full power, but let's literally contradict that because of made up standard that doesn't exist in the DB world. So where is my 2-C Bulma and enraged SSJ2 Vegeta?! Since we can't assume holding back.
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that just proved my point lmao because the literal opposite is stated for even fatigued Jiren
it does not it was a decoy point I "gave" you to lure you into saying exactly that, which now leads me to my point, if you're happy to use extreme examples like mr. satan surviving hits from Cell or Buu (one of whom doesnt even care about holding back) what gives you the right to appeal to absurdity by bringing up 2-C Bulma or 2-C pre-god vegeta? you can't have it both ways its pretty clear you're happy to be hypocritical as long as it supports your argument. I hope everyone reading makes note of this.
2-C Roshi? Yeah i dont see a problem. current Roshi should pretty much demolish BoG SSG and the Moro saga proves this further.
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quit appealing to absurdity you hypocrite when you're perfectly fine with using it for support of your own argument
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@Ryzen7900X I suggest we don't continue indulging this.
@Veronica; stop derailing this CRT, thank you. It's clear nobody is agreeing with you on this point.
@Veronica; stop derailing this CRT, thank you. It's clear nobody is agreeing with you on this point.
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My point is factual and based on numerous instances in the manga and anime, but if you want to hyper-inflate/wank them. Its up to you
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fine but I really hope you and any other mod who reads this takes note of veronica's continued flawed behavior that has landed her in trouble in the past as well.
I'll disengage from the thread now
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This also completely debunks SBG still being used and it being separate: https://ibb.co/Hp1nDqD
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- #223
That is good supporting evidence for the main argument of this thread but I think that point has already been largely accepted now. Thanks anyway.
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No problem, but I think you should adjust to: SSB>SSG>SSJ1-3>base and upscale their base from the Buu saga and feats. Such as him one shotting Perfect Cell, probably getting 50% stronger with the RoF and U6 training etc.
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In my opinion the anime and manga should have stuck with SBG like RoF arc. Where their base form is SSG level and SSJ/SSB 50x SSG. It would be dope to see SSB2-3 and Cabba would have been slightly above SSG level, since both trained twice. Than we would have tons of Low Multiversal characters just by being base Goku level.
I just like the idea more of a massively powerful base form having SSG power. Instead of the regular base form from U6 arc and on.
But they thought "Nah, we aren't going to make U6 Saiyans, Piccolo, Gohan and the others" SSG/SSB or in between level.
So let's introduce regular SSJ forms again and bring SSG back. Scaling wise from Toei/Akira stand view it makes sense. Now let's not make everyone suddenly Multiversal in power with no training or access to god ritual.
I just like the idea more of a massively powerful base form having SSG power. Instead of the regular base form from U6 arc and on.
But they thought "Nah, we aren't going to make U6 Saiyans, Piccolo, Gohan and the others" SSG/SSB or in between level.
So let's introduce regular SSJ forms again and bring SSG back. Scaling wise from Toei/Akira stand view it makes sense. Now let's not make everyone suddenly Multiversal in power with no training or access to god ritual.
Hasty12345
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POV: you won’t drop it
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What? That's exactly how DBS depicts it. Refute it or quite the whining.
Hasty12345
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You’ve been told to stop bringing up the anime in this thread as it’s derailing. You’ve been reported for poor conduct in this thread and others and the first thing you do is repeat your argument and immediately bring the anime into it AGAIN.
You’re the one whining.
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I also included the manga. Yet, you ignored that as both follow the same script.
Fezzih_007
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Except the anime RoF and movie which the manga refers to are almost identical."I actually also include the manga, not only the anime"
That's not the point.
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They follow the same script. Watch RoF movie and anime. They are 99% the same what they do and say. Also the anime is based on the movie which the manga refers to. Lmao
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I'm so confused
If SBG = same exact power as SSG without turning red, then SSG becomes a redundant form. The issue is with how that form works. If it's simply pumping out ki equivalent to SSG, then logically that means all other transformations are stronger (and therefore all other forms keep their multiplier with respect to the original SSG power level which is stupid.) If it's just perfect ki control, then it can't be SBG because they would turn red, and the god forms possess godly ki which can only be sensed by other gods.
The issue I have with the way this quote is being used is that Damage assumes this means a black-haired Saiyan using SSG-like power. Whereas from the manga itself, Bulma states Goku doesn't look any different (and others say minus the hair.) I think SSG also satisfies the description for "not changing form." "It is said that Saiyans can gain control of god-like power" is literally the description of the legend of Super Saiyan God. How could anybody say "it is said" when that form hasn't been displayed to us through the main Saiyans? That information would have to long predate what we already know.
SBG as an entirely brand-new base form (at the time of him unlocking SSG) doesn't make sense because SSG is still the strongest thing Goku has. Beerus telling Goku to train and get stronger also doesn't make sense if he was capped out before becoming a god, and the ritual is the only way he knows how to become one. The only way Beerus can expect Goku to do that is if his power cap was increased and he can achieve power close to that of SSG, or increase the power he already has by some arbitrary amount which would strengthen the SSG form.
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That's because SBG got retconned since the U6 arc in both the manga and anime. Also SBG in the anime is base being SSG level without god-ki, but when they use god-ki and SSG power and turn SSJ, they go SSB.I'm so confused
If SBG = same exact power as SSG without turning red, then SSG becomes a redundant form. The issue is with how that form works. If it's simply pumping out ki equivalent to SSG, then logically that means all other transformations are stronger (and therefore all other forms keep their multiplier with respect to the original SSG power level which is stupid.) If it's just perfect ki control, then it can't be SBG because they would turn red, and the god forms possess godly ki which can only be sensed by other gods.
The issue I have with the way this quote is being used is that Damage assumes this means a black-haired Saiyan using SSG-like power. Whereas from the manga itself, Bulma states Goku doesn't look any different (and others say minus the hair.) I think SSG also satisfies the description for "not changing form." "It is said that Saiyans can gain control of god-like power" is literally the description of the legend of Super Saiyan God. How could anybody say "it is said" when that form hasn't been displayed to us through the main Saiyans? That information would have to long pre-date what we already know.
SBG as an entirely brand-new base form (at the time of him unlocking SSG) doesn't make sense because SSG is still the strongest thing Goku has. Beerus telling Goku to train and get stronger also doesn't make sense if he was capped out before becoming a god, and the ritual is the only way he knows how to become one. The only way Beerus can expect Goku to do that is if his power cap was increased and he can achieve power close to that of SSG, or increase the power he already has by some arbitrary amount which would strengthen the SSG form.
But in the U6 arc, they brought back regular SSG as a transformation and made SSB 50x on top of that instead of base. Goku can't have two SSG source of power, when he absorb THE power in BoG. Also when he trains his base gets stronger so it isn't a static power as you say it is.
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Please don't bring up the anime before you lose me even further lol. The manga is very different from the anime.
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The manga RoF is the movie. Where he is SBG state/SSG power in base and when he uses SSG power/base and turns SSJ, he becomes SSB. In RoF movie SSB is the new SSJ. But in the U6 arc, he goes regular SSJ contradiction the base SSG power in RoF, but they brought back SSG as a transformation thus removing his base SSG power to the transformation and now SSB is 50x on the SSG transformation instead of base in RoF.
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Can someone thread ban Veronica already?
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…
Wait
That’s-
What?
If this is the case, then your whole refutation on not counting the Anime and how it treats SBG not affecting how the Manga portrays events, why would the REVERSE be okay? That’s literally nonsense.
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