Love is everlasting! Love will light the way! (DB Super, again)

[LordTracer]

Well let me hit ya with this, what makes ya think that Caulifa and Kale are 3-A? when (Pre UIO) SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Caulifa were fighting, Goku looked like he wasnt trying (like what Vegeta said about him) then after Berserk Kale was blasted away by Jiren, you see Goku not even harmed at all

Then we move to Post UIO Tired Base Goku going against SSJ2 Caulifa. Even when tired, Base Goku could harm SSJ2 Caulifla and was even besting her. So that can raise the question here....could A18 even be 3-A if Caulifla and Kale couldn't do much to a Pre UIO SSJ2/SSB and Post UIO Base Goku or were they never that strong (as Goku) to begin with and we are just giving them too much credit?

SSJ2 Caulifla forced Post-UIO Goku into using SSJ2 and then matched him while using that, and controlled LSSJ Kale was able to swap hands with Post-UIO SSG Goku for a time. Plus Jiren put more effort into defeating berserk LSSJ Kale than he did against Pre-UIO SSG Goku (actually blasting her v. using a single finger)

Not to mention them both scaling above Cabba, who Vegeta stated was equal to himself during the U6 Saga. SSJ Cabba was also able to push SSJ Vegeta back and knock him around for a good portion of their fight, with Piccolo even stating that Vegeta was being pushed back.

The U6 Saiyans are 100% 3-A.

 

[BlackeJan]

SSJ2 Caulifla forced Post-UIO Goku into using SSJ2 and then matched him while using that, and controlled LSSJ Kale was able to swap hands with Post-UIO SSG Goku for a time. Plus Jiren put more effort into defeating berserk LSSJ Kale than he did against Pre-UIO SSG Goku (actually blasting her v. using a single finger)

Not to mention them both scaling above Cabba, who Vegeta stated was equal to himself during the U6 Saga. SSJ Cabba was also able to push SSJ Vegeta back and knock him around for a good portion of their fight, with Piccolo even stating that Vegeta was being pushed back.

The U6 Saiyans are 100% 3-A

Well she did get stronger because of Saiyan genes during the fight but its still there that she was getting beaten by a Post UIO Tired Base Goku at the start and just because Kale was swapping hands for a brief moment doesn't mean that she actually stood a chance with him at all. He was dominating the crap out of both of them and she even fired a ki blast at him and he went right through it (he was being casual and was still tired). Yeah if SSJ is a multiplier off of someone's base form, then nothing would change from the both of them, how can they be comparable in base yet Vegeta tanked an enraged (saiyans get stronger while mad) SSJ punch to the forehead? that just mean that Base Cabba is comparable to a Vegeta surpassing himself

 

[BlackeJan]

Well this is how I personally feel. I think a Possibly 3A should be used but if everyone thinks differently then alright

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Well she did get stronger because of Saiyan genes during the fight but its still there that she was getting beaten by a Post UIO Tired Base Goku at the start and just because Kale was swapping hands for a brief moment doesn't mean that she actually stood a chance with him at all. He was dominating the crap out of both of them and she even fired a ki blast at him and he went right through it (he was being casual and was still tired). Yeah if SSJ is a multiplier off of someone's base form, then nothing would change from the both of them, how can they be comparable in base yet Vegeta tanked an enraged (saiyans get stronger while mad) SSJ punch to the forehead? that just mean that Base Cabba is comparable to a Vegeta surpassing himself

None of that discredit 3-A though. Since both Goku and Vegeta at this point scale well into 3-A by that point.

(In fact, I even made a scaling chain to say how strong they are in 3-A)

 

[LordTracer]

Well she did get stronger because of Saiyan genes during the fight but its still there that she was getting beaten by a Post UIO Tired Base Goku at the start

She was not getting beaten at the start, Caulifla had the advantage if anything. And “muh Goku was fatigued” is overblown, Post-UIO base Goku would be stronger than his Pre-UIO base self.

and just because Kale was swapping hands for a brief moment doesn't mean that she actually stood a chance with him at all.

When did I say anything like that, please show me where I said anything similar to that. The fact that she could briefly trade blows with him proves that she’s 3-A, unless you want to argue SSG is beneath 3-A now.

Yeah if SSJ is a multiplier off of someone's base form, then nothing would change from the both of them, how can they be comparable in base yet Vegeta tanked an enraged (saiyans get stronger while mad) SSJ punch to the forehead? that just mean that Base Cabba is comparable to a Vegeta surpassing himself

Completely ignored how SSJ Cabba was pressuring SSJ Vegeta for the ENTIRE FIGHT, which was blatantly stated, before Vegeta tanked his punch, AND ignoring how Cabba only has SSJ Grade 1 while Vegeta has SSJ Grade 4. Cabba is equal to base Vegeta, Vegeta himself said this, and it’s extremely blatant.

To say the U6 Saiyans, especially Kale, aren’t 3-A at this point is honestly, just being ignorant.

 

[LightReinh12345]

She was not getting beaten at the start, Caulifla had the advantage if anything. And “muh Goku was fatigued” is overblown, Post-UIO base Goku would be stronger than his Pre-UIO base self.

When did I say anything like that, please show me where I said anything similar to that. The fact that she could briefly trade blows with him proves that she’s 3-A, unless you want to argue SSG is beneath 3-A now.

Completely ignored how SSJ Cabba was pressuring SSJ Vegeta for the ENTIRE FIGHT, which was blatantly stated, before Vegeta tanked his punch, AND ignoring how Cabba only has SSJ Grade 1 while Vegeta has SSJ Grade 4. Cabba is equal to base Vegeta, Vegeta himself said this, and it’s extremely blatant.

To say the U6 Saiyans, especially Kale, aren’t 3-A at this point is honestly, just being ignorant.

U6 saiyans definitely 3-A
Even I can argue they are Low 2-C

 

[Nullflowerblush]

In case it's needed, a recap of all the good 3-A feats:

• Android 18 tanked the Double Pride Spin, a combo between Tupper and Zoire, which previously blew away Goku's energy blasts.
• 18 injured Tupper, despite his rocky exterior, who managed to restrain Goku for a moderate period of time.
• 18 should also scale to ¼ of the United Justice Stream that overpowered SSJ Caulifla and SSJ Full Power Kale, minimum via scaling to Zoire (see above).
• Super Ribrianne forces Goku into Super Saiyan Blue, previously pushing him against a wall in their base forms.
• Ribrianne should scale to Zirloin, Rabanra, and Zarbuto, who managed to keep up with Post-2nd UI -Sign- Goku, Android 17, and Android 18 while holding back.
• Ribrianne, despite being low on power, clashed with mid-tournament Vegeta and forced him to exert effort and even when he did, she still tanked his attacks.
• At the beginning of the tournament, Ribrianne kept up with SSJ Vegeta, with Vegeta complimenting her strength.
• Ribrianne exchanged blows with Android 17 at the beginning of the tournament and broke through his Barrier with ease.

 

[LordTracer]

Didn’t Rozie and Kakunsa have some 3-A stuff too?

 

[JJSliderman]

Assuming the other CRT goes through, would all these possible 3-A characters get buffed to Low 2-C?

Just out of curiosity.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Yea. But, that CRT has yet to be resolved.

 

[BlackeJan]

Completely ignored how SSJ Cabba was pressuring SSJ Vegeta for the ENTIRE FIGHT, which was blatantly stated, before Vegeta tanked his punch, AND ignoring how Cabba only has SSJ Grade 1 while Vegeta has SSJ Grade 4. Cabba is equal to base Vegeta, Vegeta himself said this, and it’s extremely blatant.

To say the U6 Saiyans, especially Kale, aren’t 3-A at this point is honestly, just being ignorant.

I dont know how u missed what ive said after that but goodness. U say Ignored your argument yet u yourself ignored that SSJ is a 50x multiplier so lets do this shall we?

Base Cabba = 10
Base Vegeta = 11

SSJ Vegeta tanks an attack from Enraged SSJ Cabba

SSJ Cabba = 500
SSJ Vegeta = 550

????????

With their PL so close, how in the world can they be comparable if Vegeta tanked an attack from Cabba? this isn't hard dude despite what Piccolo said, how can someone be pushed back yet tanked an attack with a smile on his face???

Ignoring the feat at this point is just being ignorant

EDIT: so AGAIN, I think a Possibly 3A should work but if everyone else thinks otherwise then ill go with it

 

[LordTracer]

Grade 4 > Grade 1, the 50x multiplier only applies to Grade 1. That alone nullifies your entire argument, not to mention that one moment of Vegeta tanking an attack does not override the entire rest of the fight where Cabba was pressuring him.

 

[BlackeJan]

Did....did u not read the Edit???

 

[LordTracer]

I did, I’m explaining why they don’t need a possibly and are firmly 3-A.

 

[BlackeJan]

Well like I said I'll go along with it

 

[LordTracer]

Buuuump

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is actually evidence that Goku isn't 3-A in base actually.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

This is actually evidence that Goku isn't 3-A in base actually.

Why wouldn't Goku be 3-A in his base form? He literally fought Suppressed Beerus as Base/SSJ Goku while previously he needed SSJG back in BoG, and he became much stronger after training with Whis. Beerus also stated that Goku absorbed the power of SSJG into his own base form

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why wouldn't Goku be 3-A in his base form? He literally fought Suppressed Beerus as Base/SSJ Goku while previously he needed SSJG back in BoG, and he became much stronger after training with Whis. Beerus also stated that Goku absorbed the power of SSJG into his own base form

1. Because otherwise SSG wouldn't be a transformation anymore. Regardless if he powered up or not the power he has in base is evidently far beneath whatever he needed to nearly destroy the universe against Beerus.

 

[AKM sama]

Exactly how many Ribrianne and/or 18 threads have we had at this point?

Too many. She was initially 3-A, then unknown for a while, and then in a thread that had a lot of staff participation, it was decided to keep her at what her current rating is. I don't know why we don't have a discussion rule for this specific topic.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1. Because otherwise SSG wouldn't be a transformation anymore. Regardless if he powered up or not the power he has in base is evidently far beneath whatever he needed to nearly destroy the universe against Beerus.

Then how do you explain that Goku was still able to fight suppressed Beerus as Base/SSJ with dying immediately? And Beerus never powered down in that fight, he kept fighting against Goku in his current power level and Goku still somewhat kept up with him. Also it was said after Goku lost SSJG that he absorbed the power of the form which is what allowed him to fight Beerus

 

[LightReinh12345]

There is evidence Goku is 2-C in base actually

 

[LightReinh12345]

1. Because otherwise SSG wouldn't be a transformation anymore. Regardless if he powered up or not the power he has in base is evidently far beneath whatever he needed to nearly destroy the universe against Beerus.

RoF Saga, Fake Monaka Vs Base Goku
Remember?!

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

RoF Saga, Fake Monaka Vs Base Goku
Remember?!

This was actually after the U6 VS U7 tournamet but whatever, it still doesn't affect the argument

 

[LightReinh12345]

This was actually after the U6 VS U7 tournamet but whatever, it still doesn't affect the argument

I dont think he got astronomically stronger after a tournament thats why
& it doesnt change the Argument like U said
Anyway look at RoF
First Form Frieza >>>>> Gohan & Tagoma
Base Goku clashed with final Form Frieza confirms "Saiyan beyond God" is a thing
Anyway we have a Lot of discussion at this point denying Base Goku isnt that strong is ....

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Goku is 3-A in base form; he has been since BoG saga with him literally going SSG form, doing the 3-A feat. Only getting stronger after that, reverting back to his base form and still being stronger. Then going SSJ which powered him up further, and then being empowered all the more when he returned to SSG form, and then only got stronger after that.

However, base Goku holds back all the damn time and literally just toys with everybody he fights throughout Tournament of power saga. He's not a good source for anybody in ToP to scale from. Though, in Universe 6 saga Goku was a lot more serious yes. And Vegeta usually stomps foes even in base form. 17 also tends to you with some of his foes. And there's just too much plot convenience.

But I pretty much agree with AKM more than anyone else here.

 

[LordTracer]

However, base Goku holds back all the damn time and literally just toys with everybody he fights throughout Tournament of power saga. He's not a good source for anybody in ToP to scale from.

To be fair though, the OP isn’t just scaling people to Goku or casual 17. It’s also scaling to Vegeta, and Pride Troopers who scale to Caulifla and Kale.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Caulifla and Kale especially the former also have their share of inconsistencies. The latter actually does have her distinctions stairt-forward as she's a variable tier via Empathy and rage. But Caulifa seems to range from keeping up with top tiers and struggling with fodder. Base Goku being faster than SSJ2 Caulifa is a note worthy scene I should mention.

There's a lot of fodder characters in the Pride Troopers and 18 and Ribrianne in general seem to be the most difficult to decide tbf.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Caulifla and Kale especially the former also have their share of inconsistencies. The latter actually does have her distinctions stairt-forward as she's a variable tier via Empathy and rage. But Caulifa seems to range from keeping up with top tiers and struggling with fodder. Base Goku being faster than SSJ2 Caulifa is a note worthy scene I should mention.

There's a lot of fodder characters in the Pride Troopers and 18 and Ribrianne in general seem to be the most difficult to decide tbf.

Didn't Base Goku surpassing SSJ2 Caulifla only happened after he fought Jiren? Because he recieved a zenkai since the battle after he was healed by Frieza

 

[LordTracer]

Base Goku being faster than SSJ2 Caulifa is a note worthy scene I should mention.

That was Post-UIO Goku, and Caulifla forced him back into SSJ2 very shortly afterwards. And even if base Goku was faster there, that doesn’t have anything to do with AP.

Although Caulifla does seem to adapt really quickly so idk.

 

[LordTracer]

Also in the last thread about Ribrianne and 18, I remember there was a compromise of ‘At least High 4-C/4-B, possibly 3-A’ proposed for them. Maybe that can work if straight 3-A doesn’t?

 

[Omegas03]

I think 18 is far more consistent with 3-A than High 4-C or 4-B, let's remember she has done far better than say U6 arc Piccolo and Gohan.

Literally the only anti feat she has is her fight against Katopesla.
While her supporting feats are:

-Fighting alongside 17 multiple times
-Intimidating Frost
-Fighting Ribrianne who in turn fought SSJ Vegeta
-Lifting someone that Base Goku was unable to.
-Helping against Anilaza
-the Pride Troopers who were able to hold their own against Kale and Caulifla have trouble with 18
-Fighting alongside 17 and Goku against the U2 maiden guys.

Again, the arguments were brought up a lot of times so I don't think that this is going to be accepted. But 18 has far more consistent showings on Base/SSJ Goku level than Earthling tier.

 

[LightReinh12345]

Caulifla and Kale especially the former also have their share of inconsistencies. The latter actually does have her distinctions stairt-forward as she's a variable tier via Empathy and rage. But Caulifa seems to range from keeping up with top tiers and struggling with fodder. Base Goku being faster than SSJ2 Caulifa is a note worthy scene I should mention.

There's a lot of fodder characters in the Pride Troopers and 18 and Ribrianne in general seem to be the most difficult to decide tbf.

But do U think Pride troopers are below characters such as Basil?!
Pride troopers should be far stronger characters such as Basil & Napapa who are 4-B they gave caulifla & kale much more trouble than those characters

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Caulifla casually stomped Napapa in base, but she had a tough time against the pride troopers even as a SSJ

 

[LightReinh12345]

Caulifla casually stomped Napapa in base, but she had a tough time against the pride troopers even as a SSJ

Thats why They shouldn't be High 4-C
They should be At least 4-B , Possibly 3-A if not straight up 3-A

 

[Omegas03]

Uh, Caulifla used SSJ and struggled against Napapa, she never stomped him in Base form.

 

[LightReinh12345]

Uh, Caulifla used SSJ and struggled against Napapa, she never stomped him in Base form.

Yeah She used SSJ & but thats not a struggle to me she kinda do it with low dif while she has a hard time against pride troopers

 

[LightReinh12345]

U can See this is clearly a Lot of struggle & she was breathing heavily
Even pride troopers combined beam temporarily overpowered them unless Kale powered up more & Caulifla Went SSJ2

 

[LordTracer]

Caulifla struggling with Napapa should simply be an outlier. Even before the ToP, she scales to Cabba, who is absolutely a 3-A.

 

[LightReinh12345]

Caulifla struggling with Napapa should simply be an outlier. Even before the ToP, she scales to Cabba, who is absolutely a 3-A.

Caulifla just screams a Bit thats not that much struggle she was completely fine after beating napapa with low dif while Against she was a Bit injured & breathing heavily
Thus Pride Troopers beam overpowering theirs temporarily & Kasheral scaling to androids there are more consistency with 3-A than High 4-C
Clearly They are far superior to 4-B beings such as Basil & Napapa