Legend of Zelda General Discussion Thread

[Chariot190]

Sheik's greatest physical feat is not being killed by Bongo Bongo.

Whom is what tier? Also, she's equal to a Sage, who as we all know, buff up Link exponentially. Could also restrain Ganon briefly.

The Phantoms are Tier 6, Ghost Zelda isn't.

Whom she posseses, controls, and you play almost exclusively as.

 

[Chariot190]

Ahhh. Hey, rewatching that cutscene, Sheik saying "This is the melody that will draw you into the infinite darkness that absorbs even time... Listen to this, the Nocturne of Shadow!!" is just flowery language &/or hyperbole, right?

A lil? Like we know what the song actually does, and it ain't that, but even if that wasn't, like, wtf would it mean? Need more info and showings.

But given Sheik yaps about the other songs in abstract flowery ways, it's probably non-literal.

 

[Imaginym]

A lil? Like we know what the song actually does, and it ain't that, but even if that wasn't, like, wtf would it mean? Need more info and showings.

But given Sheik yaps about the other songs in abstract flowery ways, it's probably non-literal.

Ahhh, thanks for answering! Any idea about my other question?:

Also, Bongo Bongo appears to be visible while moving in the cutscene. In the video, I watched, it resembled static.

Is that the shadow of Bongo Bongo? The raindrops on its physical form?

I'm wondering if it could be something to due with an issue on the uploader's end maybe?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Whom is what tier? Also, she's equal to a Sage, who as we all know, buff up Link exponentially. Could also restrain Ganon briefly.

Zelda you're right about; Sheik is not a Sage. Also Ganon was near dead.

Whom she posseses, controls, and you play almost exclusively as.

Only the Hyrule Warriors version of her can summon armors for herself.

 

[Chariot190]

Zelda you're right about; Sheik is not a Sage. Also Ganon was near dead.

When did I call her a Sage? I said she was equal to one, which she is, in fact, based on what she actually does and the downfall timeline, she's arguably stronger.
Ganon, wasn't near dead? That isn't how Ganon works, nor the ToP (in fact it literally made it so like, that wasn't happening), he took damage yeah, and before he could get back up, she held him down so Link could make him near death, so they could seal him. This still doesn't change what she did and let's not pretend the immortal superhuman stamina pig demon who can fight for days at minimum and shrug off fatal wounds with the ToP preventing his death means her doing what she did means she doesn't scale to some degree, because she does, and hell, Link's followup doesn't even kill him, despite having a sword thrust through his skull.
This alone makes her magic well past any Sage so, there's that, but also like high tier 6, low 5? Because Ganon is literally Ganon.
Edit: Oh right, Light Arrows also come from her in OOT.

Only the Hyrule Warriors version of her can summon armors for herself.

So? We'd treat that as standard equipment profile speaking given it's her primary means to like, do anything and she uses them constantly. Plus as Dust mentioned, Malladus.

Either way you're wrong about the whole Zelda not being past that thing, hell I could name more. Basically any Zelda that has magic has extreme AP, even WW Zelda has like 6-something AP with her bow of light.

Also, Bongo Bongo appears to be visible while moving in the cutscene. In the video, I watched, it resembled static.

Is that the shadow of Bongo Bongo? The raindrops on its physical form?

you mean like here? That's because the rain in OOT falls depending on Link's position, Link, in that cutscene is standing on the ground next to the well, so the game treats everything on the axis Link's feet is on, as "the ground", and that's where the rain falls. The rain ain't falling on Bongo there, it's just a visual "glitch" due to game limitation.

As an example, you can get a good view in fron of the Shadow Temple, if Link stands on the rail, the ground/elevation will change to that, and the rain will fall on the air like it was the ground.

 

[Imaginym]

When did I call her a Sage? I said she was equal to one, which she is, in fact, based on what she actually does and the downfall timeline, she's arguably stronger.
Ganon, wasn't near dead? That isn't how Ganon works, nor the ToP (in fact it literally made it so like, that wasn't happening), he took damage yeah, and before he could get back up, she held him down so Link could make him near death, so they could seal him. This still doesn't change what she did and let's not pretend the immortal superhuman stamina pig demon who can fight for days at minimum and shrug off fatal wounds with the ToP preventing his death means her doing what she did means she doesn't scale to some degree, because she does, and hell, Link's followup doesn't even kill him, despite having a sword thrust through his skull.
This alone makes her magic well past any Sage so, there's that, but also like high tier 6, low 5? Because Ganon is literally Ganon.
Edit: Oh right, Light Arrows also come from her in OOT.

Apologies to jump in on this topic, but....
So, was Zelda damaging him? Negating his regeneration with magic?
Also, fight for days? Is that assuming OoT Ganon is comparable to his ALttP incarnations? Admittedly, I can kinda understand if it's something like Base>Beast>ToP Ganon? (Even though he starts with the ToP as it's part of his cycle of Reincarnation?)

Incidentally, his Stamina stuff for his 3rd key seems unsourced:

Stamina: Superhuman (Should scale to other well-trained Gerudo who can fight with and train for long periods of time without fatigue) | Superhuman (Fought Link for several days straight[82]) | Superhuman (He can continually battle with various incarnations of Link while ignoring and laughing off fatal wounds and showing no signs of tiring. Kept his castle floating dozens, if not hundreds, of feet in the air for several years nonstop with his magic and wasn't fatigued by this in the slightest) | Superhuman

Is this because of something about his TP version being impaled?
Also, what if his castle levitating was done by just investing a ton of power all at once into a "Levitate indefinitely" or "Levitate for a large amount of time", or some kind of localized change of the laws of nature -like gravity- by dark magic, similar to how dark magic causes other things to float in voids or such in fiction?
What's the indication Hyrule Castle levitates through a continous exertion of Ganondorf's power?

So? We'd treat that as standard equipment profile speaking given it's her primary means to like, do anything and she uses them constantly. Plus as Dust mentioned, Malladus.

Either way you're wrong about the whole Zelda not being past that thing, hell I could name more. Basically any Zelda that has magic has extreme AP, even WW Zelda has like 6-something AP with her bow of light.


you mean like here? That's because the rain in OOT falls depending on Link's position, Link, in that cutscene is standing on the ground next to the well, so the game treats everything on the axis Link's feet is on, as "the ground", and that's where the rain falls. The rain ain't falling on Bongo there, it's just a visual "glitch" due to game limitation.

As an example, you can get a good view in fron of the Shadow Temple, if Link stands on the rail, the ground/elevation will change to that, and the rain will fall on the air like it was the ground.

Hmmm. Checking the video, & a 2nd video of the N64 cutscene version (In both cases, I watched the N64 version's cutscene.) it seems like 1 of the uploaders had some glitches on their end that made Bongo Bongo's shadow look static-y as it travelled across Kakariko's surface.

Still, presumably Bongo Bongo wasn't both invisible AND intangible, right? Did it not seize & throw Sheik like it does in its boss battle against Link. But can the rain be seen falling on Bongo Bongo? Is the rain not being seen falling on it a technical limitation rather than an indication of physical properties?

 

[Chariot190]

Apologies to jump in on this topic, but....
So, was Zelda damaging him? Negating his regeneration with magic?

Restraining him, which she specifies is under her own power, but like, he's 6-A, 5-B, idk whatever. Her magic could hold him in place despite evident attempts to break free.

Also, fight for days? Is that assuming OoT Ganon is comparable to his ALttP incarnations?

I'd assume so. The whole immortality stamina whatever thing I'd presume is the ToP at play, not like ToW does that shit.

Admittedly, I can kinda understand if it's something like Base>Beast>ToP Ganon? (Even though he starts with the ToP as it's part of his cycle of Reincarnation?)

I was thinking more just stuff the ToP does, which OOT Beast Ganon has, and in that very same scene is preventing his death anyway.

Incidentally, his Stamina stuff for his 3rd key seems unsourced:

Stamina: Superhuman (Should scale to other well-trained Gerudo who can fight with and train for long periods of time without fatigue) | Superhuman (Fought Link for several days straight[82]) | Superhuman (He can continually battle with various incarnations of Link while ignoring and laughing off fatal wounds and showing no signs of tiring. Kept his castle floating dozens, if not hundreds, of feet in the air for several years nonstop with his magic and wasn't fatigued by this in the slightest) | Superhuman

The fatal wound and Link stuff is just kinda obvious, OOT actually is an example, he dies but the ToP revives him and he keeps fighting as Beast Ganon. If you take the promotional OOT3D comic that's like, 3 pages long, he gets slashed in the abdomen and shrugs it off.


But in TP he has so many dumb feats due to the ToP which like, yeah he's def not out of the battle because he's hit a handful of times.

Is this because of something about his TP version being impaled?

Idk but that's also a point, every WW and TP purely stamina feat would scale, so yeah he's kinda cracked.

Also, what if his castle levitating was done by just investing a ton of power all at once into a "Levitate indefinitely" or "Levitate for a large amount of time", or some kind of localized change of the laws of nature -like gravity- by dark magic, similar to how dark magic causes other things to float in voids or such in fiction? What's the indication Hyrule Castle levitates through a continous exertion of Ganondorf's power?

That's making a whole bunch of extra assumptions, in a verse filled with the opposite, like how Vaati's (gross) castle explodes on death and Zelda hammering in it relied on his power, he's gone, so it's going too.

Like, you're right we don't know 100%, but occam's razor, in a game filled with stuff where magic just ceases on death or extreme injury so...
Like it don't really matter anyway, he's a Gerudo elite so his stamina is fundamentally up there, he obv scales to the likes of Link, and in OOT, he literally dies and the ToP goes "uhm, wrong actually" and then getting stabbed in the head fails to kill him and he's cursing Link out not even a minute later....

Though ngl, I would prefer it if it was grav magic, him having like Class T grav magic would be better than an ultimately useless stamina feat but can't assume that without statements.

 

[Imaginym]

Restraining him, which she specifies is under her own power, but like, he's 6-A, 5-B, idk whatever. Her magic could hold him in place despite evident attempts to break free.

I suppose it's based on her calling it "power" & we're assuming that translates to raw magical power, as opposed to abilities, like potentially Paralysis Inducement?

I'd assume so. The whole immortality stamina whatever thing I'd presume is the ToP at play, not like ToW does that shit.

I was thinking more just stuff the ToP does, which OOT Beast Ganon has, and in that very same scene is preventing his death anyway.

The fatal wound and Link stuff is just kinda obvious, OOT actually is an example, he dies but the ToP revives him and he keeps fighting as Beast Ganon. If you take the promotional OOT3D comic that's like, 3 pages long, he gets slashed in the abdomen and shrugs it off.


But in TP he has so many dumb feats due to the ToP which like, yeah he's def not out of the battle because he's hit a handful of times.



Idk but that's also a point, every WW and TP purely stamina feat would scale, so yeah he's kinda cracked.

That's making a whole bunch of extra assumptions, in a verse filled with the opposite, like how Vaati's (gross) castle explodes on death and Zelda hammering in it relied on his power, he's gone, so it's going too.

Like, you're right we don't know 100%, but occam's razor, in a game filled with stuff where magic just ceases on death or extreme injury so...
Like it don't really matter anyway, he's a Gerudo elite so his stamina is fundamentally up there, he obv scales to the likes of Link, and in OOT, he literally dies and the ToP goes "uhm, wrong actually" and then getting stabbed in the head fails to kill him and he's cursing Link out not even a minute not even a minute later....

Though ngl, I would prefer it if it was grav magic, him having like Class T grav magic would be better than an ultimately useless stamina feat but can't assume that without statements.

Fair enough, I guess.

 

[Chariot190]

I suppose it's based on her calling it "power" & we're assuming that translates to raw magical power, as opposed to abilities, like potentially Paralysis Inducement?

Why would it be literally anything else? I could check the japanese if you want but like, why would this be the exception? Though, checking actually solved the issue, hard confirms what she meant.
"私の力で魔王を押さえます。
あとはあなたの剣で魔王にとどめを！", extra mention, "ちから" is written above the kanji she states, just to specify what she meant.

she uses 力 (ちから, chikara) (aka power, strength), so it's talking about like, actual power not hax or abilities.
("By my power, I will hold down the Demon King. Afterwards, with your sword, deliver the finishing blow to the Demon King!")

Fair enough, I guess.

I mean to be fair, I actually wouldn't list it as a stamina feat

 

[Imaginym]

I mean to be fair, I actually wouldn't list it as a stamina feat

You mean about the castle levitation? Why not?

 

[Chariot190]

Still, presumably Bongo Bongo wasn't both invisible AND intangible, right? Did it not seize & throw Sheik like it does in its boss battle against Link。

it did, but that doesn't mean much. Like a ghost can be both intangible and still hit you in the dick.

But can the rain be seen falling on Bongo Bongo?

No, the only time the rain "looks" to be falling on it, is when it's coming out of the well, and that isn't actually hitting him, but rather the plane Link is standing on, even before the shadow hits that plane.

Is the rain not being seen falling on it a technical limitation rather than an indication of physical properties?

It's technical stuff, it's in-engine and the rain is just falling on Link's plane, so it hits nothing seemingly but that isn't due to Bongo Bongo.
They due shift it later using Sheik as the anchor but in that case it's just a old game fucky.

Plus, when it's actually manhandling Sheik, the rain passes through it anyway.

You mean about the castle levitation? Why not?

You JUST explained why tho

 

[Imaginym]

it did, but that doesn't mean much. Like a ghost can be both intangible and still hit you in the dick.

I suppose. So by this, it could be intangible or not, but it's unclear which?

No, the only time the rain "looks" to be falling on it, is when it's coming out of the well, and that isn't actually hitting him, but rather the plane Link is standing on, even before the shadow hits that plane.

It's technical stuff, it's in-engine and the rain is just falling on Link's plane, so it hits nothing seemingly but that isn't due to Bongo Bongo.
They due shift it later using Sheik as the anchor but in that case it's just a old game fucky.

Plus, when it's actually manhandling Sheik, the rain passes through it anyway.

So Bongo Bongo shouldn't be intangible, right?

You JUST explained why tho

But you provided a counterargument.

That's making a whole bunch of extra assumptions, in a verse filled with the opposite, like how Vaati's (gross) castle explodes on death and Zelda hammering in it relied on his power, he's gone, so it's going too.

Like, you're right we don't know 100%, but occam's razor, in a game filled with stuff where magic just ceases on death or extreme injury so...
Like it don't really matter anyway, he's a Gerudo elite so his stamina is fundamentally up there, he obv scales to the likes of Link, and in OOT, he literally dies and the ToP goes "uhm, wrong actually" and then getting stabbed in the head fails to kill him and he's cursing Link out not even a minute not even a minute later....

Though ngl, I would prefer it if it was grav magic, him having like Class T grav magic would be better than an ultimately useless stamina feat but can't assume that without statements.

By this logic, it's internally consistent that Ganon's continuously exerted power made Hyrule Castle float for years, right?

You provided this counterargument, yet you recently expressed this:

I mean to be fair, I actually wouldn't list it as a stamina feat

Why are you suddenly going against that rhetoric that you provided, if you'll forgive my asking, please?

 

[Chariot190]

I suppose. So by this, it could be intangible or not, but it's unclear which?

I'm like 90% sure it's noncorporal, I know for a fact there's a statement saying he is. I'd have to dig a lil to find it tho.

By this logic, it's internally consistent that Ganon's continuously exerted power made Hyrule Castle float for years, right?

You provided this counterargument, yet you recently expressed this:
Why are you suddenly going against that rhetoric that you provided, if you'll forgive my asking, please?

I don't really like listing "should be" or "likely", like yeah it's probably the case, but if it isn't 100%, no point listing it, especially as it's actually not needed. Like we know what ToP can do, so may as well list his better and actually hard confirm feats.
Pluuuuuus, thet castle feat is only like 7-C, maybe High 7-C with wank, for a mf who's like 6-B. That's like listing someone breathing as a stamina feat. Not worth the assumptions when he has better to work with.

 

[Imaginym]

I'm like 90% sure it's noncorporal, I know for a fact there's a statement saying he is. I'd have to dig a lil to find it tho.

Hunh. I assume Link has some kind of NPI, then?

I don't really like listing "should be" or "likely", like yeah it's probably the case, but if it isn't 100%, no point listing it, especially as it's actually not needed. Like we know what ToP can do, so may as well list his better and actually hard confirm feats.
Pluuuuuus, thet castle feat is only like 7-C, maybe High 7-C with wank, for a mf who's like 6-B. That's like listing someone breathing as a stamina feat. Not worth the assumptions when he has better to work with.

But it's a good feat, no? Lifting something for years is a good feat, especially since it's a magic-based feat, no?
I'd call it a good supporting feat, no? At least by duration or for being non-physical, no?

 

[Chariot190]

Hunh. I assume Link has some kind of NPI, then?

Yeah, on a bunch of stuff. Except Hookshot, as a notable example of something that doesn't have NPI.

But it's a good feat, no? Lifting something for years is a good feat, especially since it's a magic-based feat, no?
I'd call it a good supporting feat, no? At least by duration or for being non-physical, no?

It's a feat, I wouldn't call it good tho.
Like, breathing is like, 0.1 joules.
A Human on average is like, let's say 150 joules for a punch. That's like a 1500 gap, over a magnitude.

The gap between Ganon atm and this feat is over 100000000000000x.

For reference, 220,903,200 seconds within 7y.

Assume he exerted that over that entire time.
That's ultimately nothing.
Which is to say, him doing it that long, is 452686.9687x less than you exhaling and you throwing punch. It isn't even a blip in his magical stamina.

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah, on a bunch of stuff. Except Hookshot, as a notable example of something that doesn't have NPI.

It's a feat, I wouldn't call it good tho.
Like, breathing is like, 0.1 joules.
A Human on average is like, let's say 150 joules for a punch. That's like a 1500 gap, over a magnitude.

The gap between Ganon atm and this feat is over 100000000000000x.

For reference, 220,903,200 seconds within 7y.

Assume he exerted that over that entire time.
That's ultimately nothing.
Which is to say, him doing it that long, is 452686.9687x less than you exhaling and you throwing punch. It isn't even a blip in his magical stamina.

What about documenting it as evidence because of his timeframe?

It's one thing to say someone can exert however strongly, but it's another to say they can so for X amount of time, right?

 

[Chariot190]

What about documenting it as evidence because of his timeframe?

It's one thing to say someone can exert however strongly, but it's another to say they can so for X amount of time, right?

A bit but like, it's so miniscule, you literally breathing takes more effort than it takes him to do that. By like, thousands of times over. The gap is like, you inhaling vs a ******* m1 abrams.

Unless we assume he can't have it going while he's sleeping so that must mean he stayed up for 7 years, in which case, yeah that'd be wild but that's an assumption.

Anyway, in other news, is there any Zelda feat that involves fuckass holes or craters? I wanna cook a lil, and the calcs I currently need to work on are just ******* annoying nuisances that need 20 stages of pixel scaling like Dragon Head, some chill ones to toss in so I don't re-enact the end of MGS4 would be nice.

 

[Imaginym]

A bit but like, it's so miniscule, you literally breathing takes more effort than it takes him to do that. By like, thousands of times over. The gap is like, you inhaling vs a ******* m1 abrams.

Unless we assume he can't have it going while he's sleeping so that must mean he stayed up for 7 years, in which case, yeah that'd be wild but that's an assumption.

My point was that even if it is weak for him, there isn't much for timeframe-related Stamina feats. How else would we indicate he could, for example, have a spell sustained even without him focusing on it?
But I guess the logic kinda makes sense.

Anyway, in other news, is there any Zelda feat that involves fuckass holes or craters? I wanna cook a lil, and the calcs I currently need to work on are just ******* annoying nuisances that need 20 stages of pixel scaling like Dragon Head, some chill ones to toss in so I don't re-enact the end of MGS4 would be nice.

I can't think of much for meteors or big craters, but there might be stuff.

 

[Chariot190]

My point was that even if it is weak for him, there isn't much for timeframe-related Stamina feats. How else would we indicate he could, for example, have a spell sustained even without him focusing on it?
But I guess the logic kinda makes sense.

I mean if we just want length of stuff, I'm sure we can grab something else, surely has some fuckass feat in TP or WW.

I can't think of much for meteors or big craters, but there might be stuff.

Like, literally just holes in walls, or stuff is fine too.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

When did I call her a Sage? I said she was equal to one, which she is, in fact, based on what she actually does and the downfall timeline, she's arguably stronger.
Ganon, wasn't near dead? That isn't how Ganon works, nor the ToP (in fact it literally made it so like, that wasn't happening), he took damage yeah, and before he could get back up, she held him down so Link could make him near death, so they could seal him. This still doesn't change what she did and let's not pretend the immortal superhuman stamina pig demon who can fight for days at minimum and shrug off fatal wounds with the ToP preventing his death means her doing what she did means she doesn't scale to some degree, because she does, and hell, Link's followup doesn't even kill him, despite having a sword thrust through his skull.
This alone makes her magic well past any Sage so, there's that, but also like high tier 6, low 5? Because Ganon is literally Ganon.
Edit: Oh right, Light Arrows also come from her in OOT.

When you called her OOT Zelda. She’s the 7th Sage, remember? “He wasn’t near death because he survived the head stab” Be fr bro. Also she didn’t create the Light Arrows.

So? We'd treat that as standard equipment profile speaking given it's her primary means to like, do anything and she uses them constantly. Plus as Dust mentioned, Malladus.

She does not use them if she is anywhere in the verse that is not the Tower of Spirits, or the very end of the game because Motorboat Girl spawned one in for her. She did not injure Malladus in any way; even if you argue she used her actual powers to do this all she could do was create a weak point on Malladus’s back, even with Link’s help.

Either way you're wrong about the whole Zelda not being past that thing, hell I could name more. Basically any Zelda that has magic has extreme AP, even WW Zelda has like 6-something AP with her bow of light.

There IS no Bow of Light in Wind Waker. There are Light Arrows… which are created and owned by Link. They also only work on evil; if she misses and hits Link, she does 1 Heart of damage.

 

[Chariot190]

When you called her OOT Zelda. She’s the 7th Sage, remember?

Yes, everyone knows as much. Even if you didn't play the game you'd know because they mention it all the time.

But, what are you talking about? Like actually, you've contradicted yourself twice now.
"Zelda you're right about; Sheik is not a Sage. "
"She's the 7th sage".

Ignoring the fact I never brought her status as being a sage up, but the very fact she is one would make her at least 6-B, plus, you KNOW Zelda and Sheik the same person right?

Why get up in arms when I say OOT Zelda is at least equal to a Sage, as if that isn't true? Yet the argument for it being "Zelda you're right about; Sheik is not a Sage.", like, no Sheik is a Sage, she's Zelda? Not like that affects what I said because I said Zelda anyway, but, they're LITERALLY the same person.

And that doesn't even touch upon her feats being, literally better than the sages so...?

“He wasn’t near death because he survived the head stab” Be fr bro.

Yeah, I am for real, he wasn't near death, he can't be, the ToP actively prevents that from even being possible, the very fact in that very fight, the very reason he was in that form, was ToP kicking in and making it so he can't die, because mind you, he does die in the tower fight, and he was shown literally fine no less than 2 minutes later anyway after being impaled in the head as it is. Are we forgetting he can like, regenerate with ToP? Like in general, and then add on TP and AlttP, from a soul no less? The former of which is this Ganon with just a bit extra magic that doesn't affect that at all? A fact that doesn't make him 1000000000000000x weaker?

"He was dazed and took a knee so he was almost dead, ignore how he was literally run through the head, an actual fatal wound seconds later and that didn't hinder him for long".

Are you for real? Why are you ignoring ToP? What it passively grants? The dude has Type 2 immortality and low-godly. And how the exponentially more drastic wound seconds later, didn't kill him. How is he near death? Where are you even getting this from? Where do they say this actually? Where do they imply it? What makes him so much weaker in this scene that Zelda, somehow, doesn't scale at all?

Are you implying Ganon was a lil hurt so Zelda literally and explicitly holding him down via raw magical power means she can't scale? She's below Tier 8 right?

Citation needed.

As a side note,

I went to check, when he's knocked down, he only stays knocked down for about 10 seconds, then he gets back up and continues fighting, and not JUST fighting, he basically heals and you have to redo the same amount of damage from the start to get him back down, you can do this infinitely, without end, it's only after Zelda attacks him does he like, never get back up (I waited about 1m), but even then from a plot standpoint, she makes it clear he's still ready to go without Link thrusting the sword in his skull, only when she makes him take a perma knee and Link deals a crippling blow (in which he gets back up and starts swinging again anyway), do the sages take that window to act. Like obviously they waited for that window of vulnerability where he actually was weakened for good reason.

So like, he very blatantly isn't near death, just dazed when she does it, and THEN he's on the ground for good as infinite repetitions of knocking him down doesn't hinder him longer than a few seconds.

So, where is he near death?

Also she didn’t create the Light Arrows.

And Link didn't create the Master Sword. He still has it.

I didn't say she made them, but it is a power that she explicitly has, she still has them and they're well into Tier 6/5.

She does not use them if she is anywhere in the verse that is not the Tower of Spirits, or the very end of the game because Motorboat Girl spawned one in for her.

So the second biggest part of the game and the thing that's even on the box, don't count because...?
Like at this point, Echo Zelda may as well not be tier anything either, it's because she has items and abilities given to her that she's that strong so...?

She did not injure Malladus in any way; even if you argue she used her actual powers to do this all she could do was create a weak point on Malladus’s back, even with Link’s help.

Dust already pointed out the logistic issue with that.

And the dude who could ruin the entire world in short order? What are you arguing? That Link helped her so she doesn't get anything from any of that?

There IS no Bow of Light in Wind Waker. There are Light Arrows… which are created and owned by Link.

You, evidently, know what I meant.
And, she still has them? This is like TP Zelda shouldn't have the bow of light even though she uses it in the single fight she's actually in.

They also only work on evil; if she misses and hits Link, she does 1 Heart of damage.

So not only do they work on those who aren't evil (Which, they literally do, why are you even arguing this, they one shot every normal enemy, evil or not evil), but also actively injure a Link at his strongest by mere accident? And like, mind you, Ganon eats them too, he takes a bunch before being dazed long enough to be dealt a heavy blow. It isn't like Link takes 1 damage and Ganon takes 500. Of course, Light Arrows are more effective against darkness, but it's also important to note in the case of Ganon, it's like a Superman Vs. Magic-type deal, it's simply something that actually can hurt him, it isn't like he explodes on contact.

But, even if that was strictly accurate and Ganon took a fucktillion more damage, Light are hard stated > Fire and Ice in power/strength, and WW is the very game where they have feats like freezing volcanos or thawing frozen islands, which I don't think I need to explain why such feats are kinda high.

Do you hear yourself? You yapped about how no mainline Zelda is past like 8-whatever, you're wrong, stop arguing just to argue.

 

[Dust_Collector]

The only real argument you can make for Zelda not being above tier 8 is if you strictly go with how hard she can punch someone or whatever, and even then, ST makes her physically comparable to endgame Link when she's fully in line with her sacred power so lmao

 

[Hypertornado099]

almost every Link has some sort of 8-C throwing feat alone tho....

The only one I remember is in OoT with the gloves

 

[Hypertornado099]

i guess that applies to dura too

 

[Chariot190]

The only one I remember is in OoT with the gloves

WW has a wacky one with the moyai blocks where Link benches a huge ass one and vfrags it.
AlttP has one that's borderline 8-C (0.21) and that was me being a tad conservative (Could get High 8-C stuff actually, but that'd border on calc stacking even if that is 100% the intent behind the dark blocks).
TP def has some bullshit due to the ball and chain being able to smash boulders and large chunks of stuff.
Obviously the OOT obelisk.
I think FSA has dumb shit that's purely FM=A LS that's well into tier 8 when I was skimming it awhile back i mean they can literally lift houses so....

Like it ain't uncommon, every Zelda game for the most part has stuff that's well into tier 8 that Link, himself, physically does. Can go way past building too if ya take buffs like say, Darmani smashing the pillar in Snowhead, or the various hammers.

 

[Chariot190]

i guess that applies to dura too

If you go the dura route, like, any game with bombs in it my dude, WW especially, there's HUGE boulders in that game that get pulped actually kind of ridiculous, theyre ******* massive. Helps that bosses tend to have ridiculous feats, like Goht flexing does a High 8-C/8-B feat, obviously, Link can take hits from Goht, or Gohma in WW smashing a High 8-C slab of rock, and that's the 1st boss.

 

[Dalesean027]

The only one I remember is in OoT with the gloves

Bruh

Seems half the chat just forget all the feats and lore that appear in these games

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yes, everyone knows as much. Even if you didn't play the game you'd know because they mention it all the time.

But, what are you talking about? Like actually, you've contradicted yourself twice now.
"Zelda you're right about; Sheik is not a Sage. "
"She's the 7th sage".

Ignoring the fact I never brought her status as being a sage up, but the very fact she is one would make her at least 6-B, plus, you KNOW Zelda and Sheik the same person right?

Why get up in arms when I say OOT Zelda is at least equal to a Sage, as if that isn't true? Yet the argument for it being "Zelda you're right about; Sheik is not a Sage.", like, no Sheik is a Sage, she's Zelda? Not like that affects what I said because I said Zelda anyway, but, they're LITERALLY the same person.

And that doesn't even touch upon her feats being, literally better than the sages so...?

Yeah, I am for real, he wasn't near death, he can't be, the ToP actively prevents that from even being possible, the very fact in that very fight, the very reason he was in that form, was ToP kicking in and making it so he can't die, because mind you, he does die in the tower fight, and he was shown literally fine no less than 2 minutes later anyway after being impaled in the head as it is. Are we forgetting he can like, regenerate with ToP? Like in general, and then add on TP and AlttP, from a soul no less? The former of which is this Ganon with just a bit extra magic that doesn't affect that at all? A fact that doesn't make him 1000000000000000x weaker?

"He was dazed and took a knee so he was almost dead, ignore how he was literally run through the head, an actual fatal wound seconds later and that didn't hinder him for long".

Are you for real? Why are you ignoring ToP? What it passively grants? The dude has Type 2 immortality and low-godly. And how the exponentially more drastic wound seconds later, didn't kill him. How is he near death? Where are you even getting this from? Where do they say this actually? Where do they imply it? What makes him so much weaker in this scene that Zelda, somehow, doesn't scale at all?

Are you implying Ganon was a lil hurt so Zelda literally and explicitly holding him down via raw magical power means she can't scale? She's below Tier 8 right?

Citation needed.

As a side note,

I went to check, when he's knocked down, he only stays knocked down for about 10 seconds, then he gets back up and continues fighting, and not JUST fighting, he basically heals and you have to redo the same amount of damage from the start to get him back down, you can do this infinitely, without end, it's only after Zelda attacks him does he like, never get back up (I waited about 1m), but even then from a plot standpoint, she makes it clear he's still ready to go without Link thrusting the sword in his skull, only when she makes him take a perma knee and Link deals a crippling blow (in which he gets back up and starts swinging again anyway), do the sages take that window to act. Like obviously they waited for that window of vulnerability where he actually was weakened for good reason.

So like, he very blatantly isn't near death, just dazed when she does it, and THEN he's on the ground for good as infinite repetitions of knocking him down doesn't hinder him longer than a few seconds.

So, where is he near death?

Zelda didn’t awaken as a Sage yet when she was Sheik. I love how hard you’re trying to wank Ganondorf here, only to mention he was ALREADY near death before becoming Ganon. Hurting Ganon so bad he lays on the ground for 10 seconds straight is great evidence he was near death, and that was before Link even got the Master Sword back, I noticed, so total game mechanics on why you can do that infinitely. In fact the end of the fight was the only part of the fight where Zelda was capable of doing that with her magic, where she explicitly told Link to finish him. She literally couldn’t hurt Stalfoses when they were in the castle.

And Link didn't create the Master Sword. He still has it.

I didn't say she made them, but it is a power that she explicitly has, she still has them and they're well into Tier 6/5.

But she doesn’t have them. She gave them to Link, remember? She doesn’t even have a Bow.

Dust already pointed out the logistic issue with that.

And the dude who could ruin the entire world in short order? What are you arguing? That Link helped her so she doesn't get anything from any of that?

You talk so much, but you never say anything. Either that was the best her powers could do, or her powers were unable to help. I don’t care what he pointed out, that doesn’t even imply a tier.

You, evidently, know what I meant.
And, she still has them? This is like TP Zelda shouldn't have the bow of light even though she uses it in the single fight she's actually in.

So not only do they work on those who aren't evil (Which, they literally do, why are you even arguing this, they one shot every normal enemy, evil or not evil), but also actively injure a Link at his strongest by mere accident? And like, mind you, Ganon eats them too, he takes a bunch before being dazed long enough to be dealt a heavy blow. It isn't like Link takes 1 damage and Ganon takes 500. Of course, Light Arrows are more effective against darkness, but it's also important to note in the case of Ganon, it's like a Superman Vs. Magic-type deal, it's simply something that actually can hurt him, it isn't like he explodes on contact.

But, even if that was strictly accurate and Ganon took a fucktillion more damage, Light are hard stated > Fire and Ice in power/strength, and WW is the very game where they have feats like freezing volcanos or thawing frozen islands, which I don't think I need to explain why such feats are kinda high.

But she doesn’t still have them, though. TP Zelda can freely create her own Light Bow and her own Light Arrows, WW Zelda was given Link’s Bow and Link’s Light Arrows because Ganondorf can onetap her without them. “Holy shit I can’t believe something did 1 whole Heart to Link!!” Like Link’s Bombs which never start doing less damage throughout the story? Or a literal pig charging at him? And how blatantly obvious it is that Link’s higher Durability comes from having more Heart Containers, not his limited health bar getting stronger? Yes, I’m sure it must not be the Light Arrows only affecting evil.

Do you hear yourself? You yapped about how no mainline Zelda is past like 8-whatever, you're wrong, stop arguing just to argue.

Well, you haven’t gotten one right yet.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I love how hard you’re trying to wank Ganondorf here, only to mention he was ALREADY near death before becoming Ganon. Hurting Ganon so bad he lays on the ground for 10 seconds straight is great evidence he was near death, and that was before Link even got the Master Sword back, I noticed, so total game mechanics on why you can do that infinitely. In fact the end of the fight was the only part of the fight where Zelda was capable of doing that with her magic, where she explicitly told Link to finish him. She literally couldn’t hurt Stalfoses when they were in the castle.

How is him being on the ground for 10 seconds due to his injuries mean he was near death? All it means is that he was damaged enough he needed to take a breather lmao, plus she never even attempts to attack the Stalfoses with her magic so not much of a point. Unless you think Ganon's durability got bumped all the way down to building level after getting brought to his knees by Link (Which doesn't make much sense since literal moments later he's durable enough to handle 2 slashes and a stab to the face from Link and all this does is stun him long enough for the sages to seal him away in the dark world)

You talk so much, but you never say anything. Either that was the best her powers could do, or her powers were unable to help. I don’t care what he pointed out, that doesn’t even imply a tier.

Zelda straight up helps Link physically push the lokomo sword into Malladus' head to kill him, and before you bring up "ah but he was weakened" Link was still physically strong enough to physically repel his attacks before he was weakened, so the weakening while noticable is not significant. Even if we assumed Zelda only contributed 1% of the strength needed to push the sword into Malladus that'd still be bounds beyond building level.

“Holy shit I can’t believe something did 1 whole Heart to Link!!” Like Link’s Bombs which never start doing less damage throughout the story? Or a literal pig charging at him? And how blatantly obvious it is that Link’s higher Durability comes from having more Heart Containers, not his limited health bar getting stronger? Yes, I’m sure it must not be the Light Arrows only affecting evil.

Using bombs as a comparison is kinda dumb since canonically they're used to beat what is cannon fodder to those on the level of the Light Arrows, while the Arrows are just super strong. Yeah they're not as effective against Link as they are Ganondorf due to them mostly affecting evil but the fact that Link can even be damaged at all if he doesn't have his shield up in time plus as chariot brought up, the arrows power beyond their holy properties are still >>> fire and ice arrows means that their raw AP is still gonna be above building level.

 

[Imaginym]

I mean if we just want length of stuff, I'm sure we can grab something else, surely has some fuckass feat in TP or WW.

Like, literally just holes in walls, or stuff is fine too.

Hmmm.

Are there any big rocks in OoT or such that get broken? Breaking the wall barring the entrance to the cavern in Outset Isle in Wind Waker?

Ah wait, kinda dumb, what Chariot mentioned previously is probably higher. I, IRL, just woke up.

 

[Dalesean027]

Are there any big rocks in OoT or such that get broken? Breaking the wall barring the entrance to the cavern in Outset Isle in Wind Waker?

There are big rock breaking feats in literally every Zelda game

 

[Imaginym]

There are big rock breaking feats in literally every Zelda game

Yeah, realized too late & edited in retrospect.

Quote my recent self-edit: Ah wait, kinda dumb, what Chariot mentioned previously is probably higher. I, IRL, just woke up.

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah, realized too late & edited in retrospect.

Quote my recent self-edit: Ah wait, kinda dumb, what Chariot mentioned previously is probably higher. I, IRL, just woke up.

Yeah lol even games as early as Zelda 2 have like 8-B and higher rock breaking feats

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

How is him being on the ground for 10 seconds due to his injuries mean he was near death? All it means is that he was damaged enough he needed to take a breather lmao, plus she never even attempts to attack the Stalfoses with her magic so not much of a point. Unless you think Ganon's durability got bumped all the way down to building level after getting brought to his knees by Link (Which doesn't make much sense since literal moments later he's durable enough to handle 2 slashes and a stab to the face from Link and all this does is stun him long enough for the sages to seal him away in the dark world)

I mean, you just answered your own question. What would I say about you if you were on the ground for 10 seconds during a street fight? Also Zelda doesn't hurt him physically.

Zelda straight up helps Link physically push the lokomo sword into Malladus' head to kill him, and before you bring up "ah but he was weakened" Link was still physically strong enough to physically repel his attacks before he was weakened, so the weakening while noticable is not significant. Even if we assumed Zelda only contributed 1% of the strength needed to push the sword into Malladus that'd still be bounds beyond building level.

Link was still physically strong enough to physically repel his attacks before he was weakened

I wonder why he could push the Lokomo Sword into his head.

Using bombs as a comparison is kinda dumb since canonically they're used to beat what is cannon fodder to those on the level of the Light Arrows, while the Arrows are just super strong. Yeah they're not as effective against Link as they are Ganondorf due to them mostly affecting evil but the fact that Link can even be damaged at all if he doesn't have his shield up in time plus as chariot brought up, the arrows power beyond their holy properties are still >>> fire and ice arrows means that their raw AP is still gonna be above building level.

That's literally the point. Like, the entire argument I was making. Didn't you read a single thing I said? "beyond their holy properties" Light Arrows ARE the holy properties. That's why they're stronger than the Master Sword against evil.

 

[Dalesean027]

I mean, you just answered your own question. What would I say about you if you were on the ground for 10 seconds during a street fight? Also Zelda doesn't hurt him physically.

Kinda a shit comparison lol he's not like laid out on the ground and he's for damn sure not "near death", he's taking a knee for 10 seconds to recoup

That's literally the point. Like, the entire argument I was making. Didn't you read a single thing I said? "beyond their holy properties" Light Arrows ARE the holy properties. That's why they're stronger than the Master Sword against evil.

You're still completely missing the point regardless of their holy element light arrows are stil outscaling the other arrows that have their own tier 7/6ish feats they still scale to higher than most anything outside of the the element affinity

 

[Dust_Collector]

I mean, you just answered your own question. What would I say about you if you were on the ground for 10 seconds during a street fight? Also Zelda doesn't hurt him physically.

lmao what, have you ever been or seen a street fight? If he was nearly dead he'd basically be face down on the floor not moving, not holding himself up off the ground heavily breathing. It just means he got his ass beat for a little bit and is pretty tired and beat up, not that he's shaking hands with the reaper.

Like do you think if some kid got beat up in the schools halls or something and was just writhing around on the floor in pain that they'd actually be nearly dead?

Not to mention, as brought up several times, literal moments later he's still durable enough and full with enough vitality to take 3 more attacks from Link, not die from them and in fact stands upright just kinda flailing from the pain and then they still had to banish him to the shadow realm because he wasn't dying and imprisonment was the best they could do. Don't give a shit she didn't hurt him physically, her magic still holds him down and he even audiobly whines in pain when it hits him could not care less if she can't do the same with a punch or whatever.

I wonder why he could push the Lokomo Sword into his head.

Did you just not read what I wrote? Link couldn't push the sword into Malladus' head, it's why Zelda had to stroll up and help him.

 

[Dust_Collector]

btw unrelated to how strong Zelda is (She's way above building level), the new masterworks book apparently revealed that Ganondorf in his transformed state is technically naked.

His clothes actually just disappear and are replaced by flesh made of his gloom that resembles clothing apparently.

 

[Chariot190]

Zelda didn’t awaken as a Sage yet when she was Sheik.

So you're just yapping, got it.

I love how hard you’re trying to wank Ganondorf here, only to mention he was ALREADY near death before becoming Ganon.

ToP.

Hurting Ganon so bad he lays on the ground for 10 seconds straight is great evidence he was near death,

And then he gets back up and continues fighting and is completely healed and can do so infinitely.

Like sucks to suck man, but, it's on the profile, don't like it, change it.

and that was before Link even got the Master Sword back, I noticed, so total game mechanics on why you can do that infinitely.

You don't need to use the Master Sword to make him take a knee between now and then, the only thing the MS is needed for, is the final hit.

Why can he take a knee a billion times being attacked with the MH or BGS, but suddenly when you do it again and Zelda actually does something, oops no despite explicitly making it clear it's via her own power, it don't count because you say so?

You realize what that means right? Him being perma stunned is due to her, not you. We can already confirm smashing his tail a billion times dues nothing but stun him then he shrugs it off and is back at peak, indefinitely, so simply doing that exactly again doesn't mean much as if you did that even 100x without the MS in possession, he'd get back up.
No, she waited till Link had the MS so he could actually deliver a """killing""" blow (that lasts like 40 seconds than he's fine again), but that doesn't change what she did.

In fact the end of the fight was the only part of the fight where Zelda was capable of doing that with her magic, where she explicitly told Link to finish him.

And Link was only capable of finishing him because of her magic.

And "only", or maybe she just waited till Link had his MS back so they could like, actually make use of that window of opportunity she'd make given it drains her so it isn't like she can spam that lv of power? Like doing what she did drained her, afterward she's panting like she might scale and if ya talk to her she yells at Link to finish his ass through ragged breath, why do the thing that she can only do once without a few minute break? Like it still IS Ganon dude's built.

She literally couldn’t hurt Stalfoses when they were in the castle.

Things they never say. Being a glass cannon doesn't mean she doesnt have the ability, but goddamn bro is actually arhguing Dark Beast Ganon < Stalfos.

But she doesn’t have them. She gave them to Link, remember? She doesn’t even have a Bow.

You for real dude?
"She had them for 7 years, oh but she doesn't have them for 5 minutes so they dont count".

You talk so much, but you never say anything.

Yeah man I only went to gtet actual proof while you're here just saying stuff. Where's your proof? i'm not asking for your opinion.

Either that was the best her powers could do, or her powers were unable to help. I don’t care what he pointed out, that doesn’t even imply a tier.

It, literally does because if you played the game you know Link couldn;t do so himself, and that mf tier 6?

But she doesn’t still have them, though.

Except she does.

TP Zelda can freely create her own Light Bow and her own Light Arrows,

No she can't, they're done via the Light Spirits, she just asked nicely.

WW Zelda was given Link’s Bow and Link’s Light Arrows because Ganondorf can onetap her without them.

Ignoring the fact she gets back up twice after being smacked even by a Ganon who no longer gives a shit and is actively trying to kill them, she still had them.

“Holy shit I can’t believe something did 1 whole Heart to Link!!”

In a scripted final boss segment? Yeah.

Like Link’s Bombs which never start doing less damage throughout the story?

They're also early game.

Or a literal pig charging at him?

Also early game.

And how blatantly obvious it is that Link’s higher Durability comes from having more Heart Containers, not his limited health bar getting stronger?

That's, literally the same thing, idk how to even respond to this.

Yes, I’m sure it must not be the Light Arrows only affecting evil.

Except tehy're explicitly noted to be far, far, more powerful than the Ice and Fire Arrows which are both like tier 6, as like, a base thing. Why ignore that? Rhetorical, you simply don't have an answer for the hard explicit statements.

Well, you haven’t gotten one right yet.

Really? Where's your proof? You're just yapping.
"Oh the type 2 low godly demon that could fight forever was actually near death despite them never saying that and even though the game hard confirms she did it via her own power, it don't count because I decided, not the game but me, that he's near death and actually sub stalfos level".
"Sheik wasn't a sage, only Zelda is because I said so and I'm just yapping to yap as if this even matters".
"Light Arrows only effect evil, ignore how they're stronger than the Elemental Tier 6 ones that in the same game have stupid af feats all without the evil vulnerability buff so actually they're just sub early game level".
"They do one damage to Link so they're weak even though they literally obliterate every enemy in the game, including ones that aren't fundamentally evil, also the very fact they can hurt him at all, also ignore how Ganon eats a bunch so it isn't like there's a explicit disparity, also ignore how Ganon himself doesn't do 900 damage so he must be equal to early game pig too an disn't actually that much stronger than the LA's, also ignore how I'm treating a scripted interaction where if you mess up in the fight, with like, optional pigs".
"Ignore how Link literally couldn't defeat Malladus without Zelda because he lacked the strength for the final blow".

Like, dude you're wrong, you're actually just yapping and it's ******* obnoxious. I don't care about your headcanon, you wanna yap? Give actual proof, stop ignoring hard statements and blatant confirmations because your haha funny meme was just straight up wrong.

 

[Chariot190]

Hmmm.

Are there any big rocks in OoT or such that get broken? Breaking the wall barring the entrance to the cavern in Outset Isle in Wind Waker?

Nothing drastic, I've calced all those, just gotta blog them when I'm done other bit feats for the profile so I can embed them.

Ah wait, kinda dumb, what Chariot mentioned previously is probably higher. I, IRL, just woke up.

This one is kind of dumb, it's pretty huge.

btw unrelated to how strong Zelda is (She's way above building level), the new masterworks book apparently revealed that Ganondorf in his transformed state is technically naked.

His clothes actually just disappear and are replaced by flesh made of his gloom that resembles clothing apparently.

Like see this is the type of lore we need,

That's literally the point. Like, the entire argument I was making. Didn't you read a single thing I said? "beyond their holy properties" Light Arrows ARE the holy properties. That's why they're stronger than the Master Sword against evil.

And your argument foregoes the hard explicit statement of them simply being stronger than F/I arrows, like, regardless of damage boost. I mean even in gme that's reflected by them dealing 1.5 to 2x the damage and costing double magic to cast, and also obliterating even non-dark enemies.

I mean, you just answered your own question. What would I say about you if you were on the ground for 10 seconds during a street fight?

That he's on his ass? Have you like, ever been punched hard before? Having the wind knocked out of you or needing to take a breather doesn't drop your stats by literally over ten quadrillion times, especially when one can confirm otherwise. Against the type 2 low godly regen unable to actually die demon king. Mind you he's fine and is cursing Link out like a lil over a minute later.

Also Zelda doesn't hurt him physically.

Literally whines in pain. Mind you, shooting Ganon with a Light Arrow in the face, only dazes him for 0.3 seconds, like he literally just blinks and shakes his head, literally only good enough to stun him to maybe roll under him if you're quick, I wouldn't though the daze is actually just that short you're probably getting smacked. So it isn't like it's just a holy magic thing if ya wanna go that route.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

After 10 years I found my DSi XL.

Are Zelda DS games good?