How far into 3-A are the ones for DBS

[Sptflcrw]

There is. You applied the multiplier more than once. Therefore it's stacking.

I've heard you guys say that SSJ multiplier is accepted, but I've never seen evidence? Who said we accept that? And that literally is what's being discussed here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The only time the SSJ multiplier was accepted was during the first instance; every other time, it varies. Kaioken is accepted though.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

There is. You applied the multiplier more than once. Therefore it's stacking.
I've heard you guys say that SSJ multiplier is accepted, but I've never seen evidence? Who said we accept that? And that literally is what's being discussed here.

That's not what stacking means and you're making it sound like I just made Goku 80X as strong rather than what I actually did. Please give an example from my chain.

No, multiple admins said that's not the purpose of the thread.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

The only time the SSJ multiplier was accepted was during the first instance; every other time, it varies. Kaioken is accepted though.

Really? How does that work?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Super Saiyan has numerous "grades" or variations that give improved power.

The "first instance" is called Grade 1 - it is a vanilla Super Saiyan transformation. What Goku used against Frieza. The at least x40 difference in strength.

The form Vegeta used against Semi-Perfect Cell is Grade 2. It is stronger than grade 1.

The form Trunks used on Perfect Cell is Grade 3. It is stronger than grade 2, albeit slower.

The final grade, Grade 4, is the form that Goku and Gohan used after coming out of the Room of Spirit and Time. This is Super Saiyan at it's mastered state and the strongest of all the grades.


All of these grades are superior in power to another - with only grade 3 having a drawback in a loss of speed.

So when Super Saiyan is applied in these scaling chains - we use the grade 1 multiplier because that's the only numerical information that we have besides the fact that each grade is stronger than the last.

So current Goku going Super Saiyan is > than the x40 multiplier since he is going Grade 4 instead of Grade 1, but since we don't know how much - we lowball and act like Goku didn't get any upgrades with the superior grades of Super Saiyan.

 

[Sptflcrw]

That's not what stacking means and you're making it sound like I just made Goku 80X as strong rather than what I actually did. Please give an example from my chain.

No, multiple admins said that's not the purpose of the thread.

That is what stacking means. You cannot reapply multipliers. Also, who said SSB is 40x stronger than SSG? Besides, you're ignoring the fact that DB multipliers are way too inconsistant to be used. By your logic, if SSJ Goku and Base Vegeta were to fight, Goku could kill Vegeta by breathing on him too hard.

I don't care what the admins say. It's your thread, not theirs. Besides, it objectively is the point of the thread. The only reason DB is anything more than 8x baseline is because of the multipliers and the scaling chain.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@DragonEmperor

It works like that because up to the Frieza saga that actually managed power pretty well, all things considering, and 50x would have put Goku dead at where he needed to be to beat Frieza convincingly.

After that SSJ started to be "as strong as the plot demanded", with it Tier jumping if needed while other times not doing much of anything.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

That is what stacking means. You cannot reapply multipliers. Also, who said SSB is 40x stronger than SSG? Besides, you're ignoring the fact that DB multipliers are way too inconsistant to be used. By your logic, if SSJ Goku and Base Vegeta were to fight, Goku could kill Vegeta by breathing on him too hard.

I don't care what the admins say. It's your thread, not theirs. Besides, it objectively is the point of the thread. The only reason DB is anything more than 8x baseline is because of the multipliers and the scaling chain.

Because SSB is SSG + SSJ. SSJ is a 40X multiplier. No, I'm not ignoring it, you're making a claim that's not being used on this site. If you disagree with it, make a seperate CRT. That's a terrible example, SSJ Goku would stomp base Vegeta in a fight and he's not going to kill him.

Okay then, you're right. This is the thread that I made and I'm telling you that this is not for discussing Kaioken and Super Saiyan's multiplier consistency.

" How far into 3-A are the ones for DBS "

" So Dragon Ball Super has a scaling chain for the 3-As but there seems to be contention on how big of a difference the end of the chain is to the start. I made this so we could come to a consensus on the size and scale of the chain. I put this in the Discussion board because the actual tiering of the characters isn't going to change, just the acceptance of how far they are into the tier."

Nowhere in here does it mention Super Saiyan or Kaioken's multiplier and if they should be accepted on this wiki.

"The only reason DB is anything more than 8x baseline is because of the multipliers and the scaling chain."

Actually, DB is now 320 times baseline because the size of the universe has been upgraded. This is just RoF base Goku.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@DragonEmperor
It works like that because up to the Frieza saga that actually managed power pretty well, all things considering, and 50x would have put Goku dead at where he needed to be to beat Frieza convincingly.

After that SSJ started to be "as strong as the plot demanded", with it Tier jumping if needed while other times not doing much of anything.

So is the Super Saiyan for Goku during Namek Saga the only one at 40X? What about characters like Trunks and Goten who unlocked it after?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Super Saiyan in-general is just considered to be at least 40x. I think I saw a post before that concluded that Super Saiyan 2 would have to be at least 200x to even make sense but that goes into headcanon territory.

SSB being 40x SSG is also very reasonable to believe. Considering SSG is just God Base and SSB is just Super Saiyan in God (Hence Super Saiyan GOD SUPER Saiyan).

I also don't buy 'Kaio-Ken Blue is calculation stacking' as a valid argument. Kaio-Ken has always been accepted and acknowledged as being a hard multiplier. Kaio-Ken Blue is multiplying the power of Blue (just as an ordinary Kaio-Ken multiplies base power). When characters say Goku is using X20 in Blue...it's a hard 20x multiplier over Blue. This is just irrational to argue.

 

[AKM sama]

@DragonEmperor
It works like that because up to the Frieza saga that actually managed power pretty well, all things considering, and 50x would have put Goku dead at where he needed to be to beat Frieza convincingly.

After that SSJ started to be "as strong as the plot demanded", with it Tier jumping if needed while other times not doing much of anything.

That's because in the Freeza saga it was a transformation that provided the best boost till that time. Later that very boost became minuscule with the crazy escalation in power. This happens for almost every transformation in the series. There are bound to be a few inconsistent portrayals but apart from them SSJ is pretty solid.

 

[SuperDragoon978]

Wait why are people saying SSJ is a 40x multiplier? The only official word on its multiplier is that it was 50x Base, not 40x. Power levels also put Base Goku at 3,000,000, and SSJ Goku at 150,000,000, exactly 50x stronger. They're that last official power levels besides Trunks' suppressed power level of 5 and Paragus's power level of 4,200.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

The accepted multiplier on this site is 40X because SSJ Goku = 100% Frieza and 50% Frieza = Kaioken 20X Goku. So for SSJ to be that strong, it would need twice the multiplier of Kaioken 20, hence the 40.

 

[AKM sama]

Not exactly. 40x is used as the bare minimum.

SSJ Goku > 100% Freeza = 2x 50% Freeza > KKx20 Goku so 50x makes the most sense. In the long run it doesn't really matter since 40x and 50x isn't so much of a difference.

 

[Sptflcrw]

Not exactly. 40x is used as the bare minimum.
SSJ Goku > 100% Freeza = 2x 50% Freeza > KKx20 Goku so 50x makes the most sense. In the long run it doesn't really matter since 40x and 50x isn't so much of a difference.

It absolutely does. I can't believe you just said that. There is a HUGE difference. Besides, all of you guys seem to ignore the fact that multipliers in DB are way too inconsistant to use.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

How are they inconsistent? Super Saiyan is pretty clearly over twice the power of Kaio-Ken X20 (Goku matched 50% Frieza with X20 and could then match and defeat 100% Frieza with Super Saiyan). Kaio-Ken has always been a hard multiplier of the user's Ki with zero contradiction to this. We even have Hit explicitly going "2x...3x...10x!" or something along those lines when Goku uses X10 Blue.

 

[Warren_Valion]

It absolutely does. I can't believe you just said that. There is a HUGE difference. Besides, all of you guys seem to ignore the fact that multipliers in DB are way too inconsistant to use.

Multipliers in DB are probably the consistent multipliers I've ever seen in fiction.

How are they, in any way, unreliable?

 

[Sptflcrw]

Frieza being able to survive against SSJ Goku before going full power. SSJ Vegeta doing equally to SSG Goku. Hit being able to survive hits from Kaioken Goku before adapting. SSG Goku not oneshotting SSJ2 Caulifla. Kefla not oneshotting SSG Goku. ToP SSG Goku reaching Goku Black Arc SSB Goku's level with minimal training. Goku not being oneshot by Oozaru Vegeta. Among many other examples. You guys seem to not realize how big of a difference something like 2 or 4x is.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

But Hit's adapting isn't a multiplier.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That's still not inconsistent though? Frieza has always been ridiculously durable and is an endurance king. SSJ Vegeta comparing to SSG Goku is a blatant outlier that is disproven by virtually every other scene featuring them. Hit is capable of tanking and handling freaking Jiren for extended periods of time before adapting. Goku would have grown stronger from the Black arc, training with Whis and Vegeta AND fighting Hit (who he basically died to).

Vegeta is the only point you make that's actually questionable but even there I can just say Vegeta was being a ****** due to his wounded pride, Great Ape being a huge hindrance to the user's mobility and the fact that Goku couldn't do a damned thing to him other than evade the slow giant.

 

[Warren_Valion]

1. You mean the Goku that broke Frieza's hand, pimp-slapped him around Namek, and taunted Frieza on his inability to kill him?

Goku was blinded by rage after Krillin was killed, and he toyed with Frieza. That's why he wanted Frieza to transform, so he can psychologically destroy him as well as physically.

To put the thought in Frieza's mind that he was completely outclassed.

2. Where was this? If it was in a tournament, then it is just Goku holding back. He does that. Look at his fight with Krillin in Super where he went Blue and fought on even ground with Krillin.

Goku holds back, even in stronger forms. It is what he does.

3. Goku was in a tournament with a no-killing rule, and Hit adapted within mere moments.

Surviving a punch from a guy who isn't trying to hurt you doesn't disprove shit. It, at most, shows how durable Hit is for taking such blows - which we see again when Hit takes numerous blows from a suppressed Jiren.

4. Did you watch the episode? He was training her to master her Super Saiyan power, how could he do that if he knocks her out in one punch.

5. Again, there is a no killing rule in a tournament. And Kefla was just toying with Goku to the point where Goku immediately decided that he need to transform and "stop holding back" to beat her, and she responses by transforming herself.

6. Gohan received minimal training and went from 4-B to 3-A, so I don't see your point. Training is a joke in Dragon Ball Super. You can get massive gains in strength from doing basically nothing.

7. That's clearly PIS. Remember how before Goku was dodging Oozaru Vegeta, just Yajirobe touching him made him scream in agony? He shouldn't have been able to move, let alone dodge/take attacks from Oozaru Vegeta.


What you don't seem to understand is that these characters hold back...like a lot.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think it's more so awareness to higher PL's is the main driving point to characters getting so much stronger in a short time frame rather than the training method or the time it takes.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The entire Dragon World functions on the idea that Saiyan's don't slow down in their growth. Their growth instead ACCELERATES as they grow stronger. Goku took over 20 years to train to his power and still got stomped by Raditz. Yet Goku would then (in the course of a year and a month) become the most powerful being in the entire universe and become the legendary Super Saiyan.

Then after a few more years of training the characters unlocked further evolutions of their power with Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, Trunks, 18, 17, 16, Gero, 19 and Cell all being vastly superior to Frieza and Goku (on Namek ofc). Then you have the Buu saga with continual asspulls to keep the cast in-line with Buu's ridiculous power.

Now you look into GT and Super and they BOTH have ridiculous power scaling with base Goku being as strong as Buu in GT and Goku literally going from multi-solar level to being literally countless times above the 3-A baseline and even reaching Low 2-C in just a year (four when counting time dilation).

Hit, Jiren and Frieza all have to be ridiculous prodigies with hax abilities to even remotely keep up with the accelerating growth of the strongest saiyans.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Buu,Beerus, and Whis say n0 to him being the str0ngest.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

RoF Base Goku is now 320X baseline due to universe size upgrade.

 

[Sptflcrw]

That's still not inconsistent though? Frieza has always been ridiculously durable and is an endurance king. SSJ Vegeta comparing to SSG Goku is a blatant outlier that is disproven by virtually every other scene featuring them. Hit is capable of tanking and handling freaking Jiren for extended periods of time before adapting. Goku would have grown stronger from the Black arc, training with Whis and Vegeta AND fighting Hit (who he basically died to).
Vegeta is the only point you make that's actually questionable but even there I can just say Vegeta was being a ****** due to his wounded pride, Great Ape being a huge hindrance to the user's mobility and the fact that Goku couldn't do a damned thing to him other than evade the slow giant.

Endurance has nothing to do with it. There is absolutely no way Frieza can an extensive beatdown from someone twice as strong as him. The fact that it's an outlier shows that it's inconsistant. You cannot survive a hit from someone ten times stronger than you. And Hit vs. Jiren means nothing, because Jiren wasn't using his full power in that fight, or anywhere even close to that. Wasn't Goku explictly stated to have done basically no training in between the Goku Black Arc and the ToP Arc? Mobility has nothing to do with AP. Goku should've instantly died.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Endurance has nothing to do with it. There is absolutely no way Frieza can an extensive beatdown from someone twice as strong as him.

You do know that Frieza survived a planet blowing up in his face after expending the last of his energy to attack Goku, after being beaten thoroughly in a fight by Goku and being cut in half by his own move.

Frieza has ridiculous durability.

Taken a beatdown from someone twice as strong as himself isn't ridiculous.

 

[Sptflcrw]

Endurance isn't the same as durability... It is ridiculous. 2x isn't far from being a one-shot.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

7.5x is the accepted standard for a one shot in a general consensus. But fiction isn't always consistent; it can vary from 1.1x being enough for a one-shot to 100x not being enough from a one-shot. Also, stonewalls do exist in fiction as well.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Spt

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Durability

"Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to withstand a certain amount of force. This is not to be confused with endurance; while durability is the ability to withstand damage, endurance is a measure of stamina."

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Stamina

"Stamina is an attribute that allows a certain character to remain active, exert itself to prolonged periods of time, and recover from ordeals."

Frieza has both of these which is how he survived getting beat up for an hour straight. Look at the original Dragon ball where Frieza survived after being cut in half and left in space. Frieza has been shown to be very durable and have lots of stamina.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Sorry for the necro, but I wanted to make a new scaling chain without using the Super Saiyan multiplier since that's only accepted for the Namek fight(going to be honest, I forgot that I was told this during this thread and was reminded about it in a more recent one) and using the new 320X AP that RoF Goku has from the recent upgrade. I didn't want to waste space by making a new thread for it so I'm posting it here.

320 (End of Battle of Gods/Resurrection of Frieza/Universe 6 Tournament Base Goku) = 320

x 10 = 3,200 (Universe 6 Tournament SSBKKx10/Future Trunks Saga SSB/Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSG)

x 20 = 64,000 (Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSBKKx20)

So yeah, the number is still pretty big. The only times I used multipliers here was for when Goku used Kaioken which is an accepted multiplier. The reason ToP Goku SSG is rated on the same level as U6 SSBKKx10 Goku is because during the ToP, SSG Goku was able to fight Dypso who was stronger than ToP Hit. U6 Hit having been able to combat U6 SSBKKx10 Goku evenly means that ToP SSG Goku has progressed to the point where his SSG state is greater than the SSBKKx10 of the earlier arc. This is a rough estimate, as Goku would be stronger than the exact numbers here because of SSBKK being Kaioken of his Blue form, which is stronger than his SSG. So giving his SSG form the multiplier would result in a lower result than if we used it on his SSB form. But we don't know how much of a boost SSB is, so I didn't make up any numbers that could be an estimate for it. Thoughts?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That does sounds like a safe lowball.

 

[Sptflcrw]

That number is completely fine. 64,000 times baseline sounds great and somewhat consistant. Although, I wouldn't say SSG Goku is stronger than SSBKKx10, as opposed to equal to it.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

....Why can't the SS Multiplier be used post Namek ?

 

[Sptflcrw]

....Why can't the SS Multiplier be used post Namek ?

Because it's super inconsistant.

 

[Dark649]

Unrelated but i'm planning to make a speed upgrade since there are characters still stuck with at least FTL+ despite the many speed boosts during the series, Massively FTL from Cell Saga MSS Goku to Vegito is what i will propose.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

That number is completely fine. 64,000 times baseline sounds great and somewhat consistant. Although, I wouldn't say SSG Goku is stronger than SSBKKx10, as opposed to equal to it.

Didn't Hit get stronger inbetween ToP and U6 arcs?

 

[Sptflcrw]

Unrelated but i'm planning to make a speed upgrade since there are characters still stuck with at least FTL+ despite the many speed boosts during the series, Massively FTL from Cell Saga MSS Goku to Vegito is what i will propose.

MSS Goku sounds too generous to me. Majin Buu and up sounds like a safer lowball.

 

[Sptflcrw]

Didn't Hit get stronger inbetween ToP and U6 arcs?

Not significantly, no.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't know about 4-A Buu saga, that sounds far too iffy as the cast would literally have to be billions of times stronger than Super Perfect Cell. I'm sure they're much stronger, but I have heavy doubts about them being that much stronger without more elaborate context. The Speed upgrades might be fine though.

If there's one upgrade we could do for Buu saga though, I think they're base forms are actually downplayed.