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How far into 3-A are the ones for DBS

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We know Super Saiyan is much stronger than X20 Kaio-Ken. We know Frieza, at 50%, could block a X20 Super Kamehameha from Goku. We know 100% Frieza was rapidly draining against SS Goku but could keep up briefly.

Overall, It's rationale to claim Super Saiyan is at least twice the power of Kaio-Ken X20, due to SS Goku damaging and keeping up with 100% Frieza who is 2x 50% Frieza.

Honestly, this argument is old and tired anyways. Toriyama has stated that Super Saiyan grows stronger from training and can surpass Super Saiyan 2 and 3 if Goku trained it. He essentially confirms that the multiplier increases via training so...
 
The same reason Grade 2 and 3 existed. They are just shortcuts to power so that they could defeat their foes. Super Saiyan is probably time-consuming and difficult to train. Goku still opts to go Super Saiyan 2 in Super, for example, but clearly uses it far less often. He also almost never uses SS3 post-Beerus, which would imply his SS and SS2 may be a bit closer to SS3 now.

It probably wasn't the case back then but, in hindsight, you could claim this is why GT Goku never uses SS2. Obviously the writers didn't intend on that back when GT was written but with Toriyama's modern statement...you can apply it. So GT Goku's Super Saiyan is probably as strong or stronger than SS2.
 
What's the point of valuing statements so much in your argument to go to immediately backtracking and disagreeing with one?
 
The statement doesn't say it's stronger than SS2 or 3, it's just more effective. It drains virtually no stamina, and is easier to use.
 
Sptflcrw said:
That's obviously false. Goku can't train his SS state to be stronger than SS2, it doesn't work like that.
Click to expand...
Are you...denying the direct words of the author and father of the entire franchise?
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
So, to put it this way, let's say two characters fought. These two are perfectly equal. One of these characters has an amp that has a stated and consistent multiplier of 20 times. Then lets say the other character has a transformation with no confirmed details. When the character uses the amp and the other character uses the transformation, the two of them are still equally matched. Logic would dictate that means that the other character's transformation that has no statements would also have a multiplier of 20 times. But your argument says that it wouldn't simply because it doesn't have a statement.
Click to expand...
@Spt

Can you respond to this?
 
The real cal howard said:
Are you...denying the direct words of the author and father of the entire franchise?
Click to expand...
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor
Toriyama wrote the canon and is responsible for the entire fiction's weight. If you wanted to argue 'Death of the Author' you would have a point when comparing Toei vs Toyo vs Tori. But when we are taking the word of Toriyama in scaling or interpreting HIS work in HIS manga then there is no conflict.

You can argue whether or not such a point can be contested in Super, GT and the Z anime but not the original manga itself.

To add further, placing a random person's perspective over what the highest authority claims is just insane. It's akin to claiming you know more than the scientist when you haven't even finished high school.
 
Death of the author comes more out of the author's actual media contradicting their statements. Basically it's the feats > WOG thing. idk if it applies in this particular case but it could very much apply to the manga if he was to be like "goku can't blow up a planet" and draw goku doing just that, for example.
 
Nah, it wouldn't apply. There is nothing implying Super Saiyan didn't grow stronger over time or can't surpass Super Saiyan 2 and 3 with training. Infact, 50% of FPSS Goku surpassed Vegeta's Grade 2 (Vegeta was unware that Goku was at half power and has no reason to get angry over Goku 'surpassing him' unless he believes Goku was in a lower form and surpassing his higher forms). You can argue Goku grew that much stronger by training but he spent the last fraction of his training just relaxing and spent most of his training helping Gohan learn Super Saiyan. Gohan even believes Goku was 'held back' by having to train him (IIRC).

So Super Saiyan growing stronger from the HBTC training is quite reasonable to claim. There is nothing to contradict Super Saiyan growing stronger either. You could claim, say, statements regarding Super Saiyan 2 and 3 being 'ascensions' or something but Toriyama states Goku realized he could sap less strength and raise the level of Super Saiyan above 2 and 3 after he fought Beerus. Meaning any contradictory claims beforehand would be voided by Goku simply being ignorant of the potential.
 
Off-topic but all this talk about Kaio-ken multipliers reminds me of how Beyblade Metal Saga vs Dragon Ball used to be decisively in the former's favor and now...now that's just not really the case I suppose.

Idk just a random thing, carry on.
 
The arguments for SSJ1 and kaioken multipliers make sense to me. I think they should be treated as legit multipliers.
 
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