How far into 3-A are the ones for DBS

[DragonEmperor23]

Here's one:
Agility doubles a Pokemon's speed. Pokemon barely need to be more than 2x faster to reach Rel+. Yet none of them are Rel+, even the ones that scale faaaaaar above it.

And that's just a 2 times multiplier.

Who disagreed with that to make them not Rel+?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Dragon. Me. And that's Pokemon. The verse that I have a massive positive interest in.

@Dark. Not the point.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I mean, show feats, because actions speak louder than words. When you get to the point where the words start becoming wonky, you need feats to back it up.

Each feat in Dragon Ball has a large scaling chain which ends when a new greater feat is accomplished which starts its own scaling chain.

An example is the casual Universe level attacks done by God Goku back in BoG to the Universe+ level feat done by Zamasu.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I think the problem isn't the scaling chains themselves it's the numbers applyed to them.

Things like Kaio-ken and Super Saiyan transformations are just x20 or x100 or x123984 are just multipliers in name and haven't ever displayed that much difference in power, not once.

Taking the Friza and SS1 Goku fight when Goku transformed and somehow gained x40 powerboost that's so silly when you consider that if Friza was 40 times more powerful than Goku just blinking in his general direction would have enough force to probably murder him no diff, and vice versa with post Goku transforming.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Casual? Lol, Goku would've DIED from that. Hell, BEERUS was stated to not be able to survive that.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Dragon. Me. And that's Pokemon. The verse that I have a massive positive interest in.
@Dark. Not the point.

Unless there's some reason for them not being Rel+, I don't see why making Legendaries and the comparable that don't have those Higher D speed tiers aren't rated at least Rel+ for being that much superior.

This isn't derailing in case anyone has looked in and is confused on why Pokemon is being talked about on a DB thread. This is just responding to an example of a situation being compared to DB, which isn't derailing at all.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We can't exactly give an exact number for how much stronger than baseline 3-A characters are, but we can say overwhelmingly greater. The size of Universe 7 got accepted and now initial SSG Goku is around 40x baselinish iirc. And afterwards, even the base forms of Goku and Vegeta are above that, but still can't give exact estimates. Kaioken would put SSBKKx10 at well over 400x baseline in Universe 6 saga, than after the Zamasu ark, Goku grew to where SSB is now stronger than SSBKKx10 was given Hit considered him more worthy and grew stronger himself. So SSB at that period is over 400x baseline and SSBKKx20 prior to Ultra Instinct would be 8000x at least. But then it's just unknown, but every 3-A character is still well above 40x at this rate.

Also, @Cal no one said Dragon Ball is the only verse with a linear power scaling system, Yu Yu Hakusho of course is another example. But Pokemon for example is not very linear with power scaling; baby Pokemon beat fully evolved Pokemon quite regularly, but it's more about the level then their forms like level 100 Pichu Vs Level 40 Raichu, and game mechanics suggest Mewtwo is equal to Palkia and Dialga in base despite lacking upper dimensional feats with Mega Mewtwo being above Arceus. I know they're not-canon game mechanics, but it's still bad to compare to Dragon Ball.

Speaking of Chrono Trigger, yeah there's a shitton of 5-A feats which that several hundred Yottaton meteor being the highest one ProtoDude accepted, but Lavos should be way above that and Queen Zeal. There's also the fact that Zeal is stated to be fodder compared to Magus among other things.

Edit: I also agree with Dark649 about the thread being tiresome.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I think the problem isn't the scaling chains themselves it's the numbers applyed to them.
Things like Kaio-ken and Super Saiyan transformations are just x20 or x100 or x123984 are just multipliers in name and haven't ever displayed that much difference in power, not once.

Taking the Friza and SS1 Goku fight when Goku transformed and somehow gained x40 powerboost that's so silly when you consider that if Friza was 40 times more powerful than Goku just blinking in his general direction would have enough force to probably murder him no diff, and vice versa with post Goku transforming.

Actually, Goku was using Kaioken to keep up with Frieza at that point. It was something along the lines of 50% Frieza = Kaioken x20 Goku and 100% Frieza = Super Saiyan Goku. So the logic was, that if Goku was stronger than 50 Frieza times 2 and 50 Frieza equals X20 Goku, then SSJ would be 40.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

We can't exactly give an exact number for how much stronger than baseline 3-A characters are, but we can say overwhelmingly greater. The size of Universe 7 got accepted and now initial SSG Goku is around 40x baselinish iirc. And afterwards, even the base forms of Goku and Vegeta are above that, but still can't give exact estimates. Kaioken would put SSBKKx10 at well over 400x baseline in Universe 6 saga, than after the Zamasu ark, Goku grew to where SSB is now stronger than SSBKKx10 was given Hit considered him more worthy and grew stronger himself. So SSB at that period is over 400x baseline and SSBKKx20 prior to Ultra Instinct would be 8000x at least. But then it's just unknown, but every 3-A character is still well above 40x at this rate.
Edit: I also agree with Dark649 about the thread being tiresome.

I can understand the exact power being wavy after Ultra instinct. I still feel like this should be kept as Cal disagrees and I made this so that people could come to a conclusion.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Here's one:
Agility doubles a Pokemon's speed. Pokemon barely need to be more than 2x faster to reach Rel+. Yet none of them are Rel+, even the ones that scale faaaaaar above it.

And that's just a 2 times multiplier.

If the said multiplier is accepted on the wiki, then it should be applied.

Arguing with multipliers that are both clearly given to the audience and are consistent is like arguing with a calc. You can't just ignore what the math, logic, and rules of the verse's mechanics.

Otherwise, you are just making up your own rules because it "sounds or looks right".

And just because something doesn't look or sound right to you, doesn't mean you are right.


I have numerous personal problems with ratings on profiles because a character is way stronger than I imagined. But as long as there are actual statements, feats, and sensible scaling - I don't say anything - because the facts prove that I am the one in the wrong.

 

[Ogbunabali]

@DragonEmperor23 Yeah but there's nothing supporting the x20 power up besides the name which isn't enough. The whole fight can go the way it did with x2 or x3 difference.

 

[Warren_Valion]

We can't exactly give an exact number for how much stronger than baseline 3-A characters are, but we can say overwhelmingly greater. The size of Universe 7 got accepted and now initial SSG Goku is around 40x baselinish iirc. And afterwards, even the base forms of Goku and Vegeta are above that, but still can't give exact estimates. Kaioken would put SSBKKx10 at well over 400x baseline in Universe 6 saga, than after the Zamasu ark, Goku grew to where SSB is now stronger than SSBKKx10 was given Hit considered him more worthy and grew stronger himself. So SSB at that period is over 400x baseline and SSBKKx20 prior to Ultra Instinct would be 8000x at least. But then it's just unknown, but every 3-A character is still well above 40x at this rate.

You can't forget that in the ToP, God Goku was comparable to Hit. So you would need to add the multiplier for Blue to that number.

Since Blue is just Super Saiyan with God Ki - it should be the same multiplier as Super Saiyan.

So x8000 X x40 = 320,000

So at least x320,000

And this doesn't even get into Ultra Instinct boost in strength that Goku got multiple of in the ToP.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@DragonEmperor23 Yeah but there's nothing supporting the x20 power up besides the name which isn't enough. The whole fight can go the way it did with x2 or x3 difference.

I don't know. I want to make a thread about Kaioken and SSJ but this thread is already tiring people out and I don't even think there's been another thread like this made for the sole purpose of sorting out the scaling in DBS. Multiple people have expressed disagreements with making a thread for if SSJ and Kaioken multipliers should be used because apparently that's something that's happened a lot in the past. But now, when I use the multipliers that have been accepted and discussed multiple times in chains, people disagree with the multipliers themselves. Not sure if I should just ask for a discussion rule about them to be made.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@DragonEmperor23 Yeah but there's nothing supporting the x20 power up besides the name which isn't enough. The whole fight can go the way it did with x2 or x3 difference.

Frieza was holding back his power - it was literally a plot point.

Here's the scene in the anime.


Also, Kaio-Ken is probably the most consistent multiplier that you will ever come across in Fiction. Or at least I have never seen one that is more consistent.

So what supports the x20 power up, is the consistency of the technique which allows us to use the numbers as multipliers.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

SSJ isn't permanently a multiplier; it was during the Frieza saga incident, but it becomes much harder to judge later on. After that, it goes back and forth of being an even bigger gap or a smaller gap. By the time Dragon Ball Super happens, base forms don't really have noticable differences between their transformations with the exception of God or Blue, or it varies from character to character; though Kaioken is still linear.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well he could always be lying and that still doesn't mean there is x40 difference between them.

And I'm not saying it's not a power up I'm saying it's an unquantifiable power up, there's nothing besides the name that implies that it's that much.

 

[Warren_Valion]

SSJ isn't permanently a multiplier; it was during the Frieza saga incident, but it becomes much harder to judge later on. After that, it goes back and forth of being an even bigger gap or a smaller gap. By the time Dragon Ball Super happens, base forms don't really have noticable differences between their transformations with the exception of God or Blue, or it varies from character to character; though Kaioken is still linear.

Well, that comes from every antagonist either being so far above the main characters strongest forms or that the antagonists are so much weaker than Goku and co. are suppressing their energy to the level of their opponents.

It's still a multiplier and is still considered one in the series itself.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Well he could always be lying and that still doesn't mean there is x40 difference between them.
And I'm not saying it's not a power up I'm saying it's an unquantifiable power up, there's nothing besides the name that implies that it's that much.

Goku thought he was lying, and when fighting Frieza he found out that he wasn't. That is literally what happened in the series.

Kaio-Ken has always been stated and shown to be a multiplier, and that the number being called out matches how much stronger Goku gets. The burden of proof is on you to show that Kaio-Ken doesn't work in the way it was stated and shown to work throughout the entire series.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Because there are absolutely 0 feats that support it being a x40 multiplier.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Everyone would in turn would have been upgraded to Massively FTL+ speed by that logic I should add. There's also other details about Base forms of Goku and Gohan being well above Supreme Kai in Buu saga to add. Source? Come from Base Gohan being strong enough to wield the Z Sword when the Kaioshin could not, and Goku taking a direct hit from the Z Sword without a scratch. There'd be even more crazy results if we accepted SS multipliers and the fact that SS requires much less energy consumption much later on than Kaioken. Kaioken is still the only multiplier we accept as linear.

Anyway, this thread is tiring a lot of people, so does anyone mind if I close it?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Who are you responding to when you say that?

If you did close it, would you put that the reason for it being closed was that it was tiring a lot of people?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Everyone would in turn would have been upgraded to Massively FTL+ speed by that logic I should add. There's also other details about Base forms of Goku and Gohan being well above Supreme Kai in Buu saga to add. Source? Come from Base Gohan being strong enough to wield the Z Sword when the Kaioshin could not, and Goku taking a direct hit from the Z Sword without a scratch. There'd be even more crazy results if we accepted SS multipliers and the fact that SS requires much less energy consumption much later on than Kaioken. Kaioken is still the only multiplier we accept as linear.
Anyway, this thread is tiring a lot of people, so does anyone mind if I close it?

No, they wouldn't. We don't have multipliers for Super Saiyan forms above Grade 1, and thus we don't apply any greater multiplier to their speed and just say they are faster than before. But we use the Super Saiyan Grade 1 forms multiplier of "at least x40" from scaling above Kaio-Ken.

Logically, Blue Goku should be a Super Saiyan Grade 4 multiplier to Red God Goku, but since we don't know that multiplier, we low ball and use the Grade 1 multiplier.


And there is also numerous evidence that supports Shin being above Goku.

Like Piccolo, who is above base Saiyans, saying that Shin strength is "dimensions apart" from his own.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was talking to @Warren on that first paragraph. And not really sure what I'd put for the reasoning. I was just asking, though this is still a general discussion so I guess it's fine for the thread to stay open, but it does sound like a lot of staff are getting tired yes. Won't close it unless others generally want it closed though.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Who are you responding to when you say that?
If you did close it, would you put that the reason for it being closed was that it was tiring a lot of people?

He is responding to me.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Aright, I myself would prefer it remaining open for now.

 

[Kepekley23]

We do not allow stacking multipliers, nor do our standards allow multipliers of hundreds of millions to billions of times if the feats themselves do not support the idea - although I get how hard it would be to portray this on a 3-A scale, given that in the mind of the authors 2-C was probably 2x baseline 3-A - we specifically ban anything in the several hundred to thousand ranges without the feats there to back it up.

Also, something is wrong with that scaling chain...I saw some dude estimate Post-ToP Goku at 52,500x times baseline 3-A, and he ignored tier 2 scaling altogether and still didn't get even a fraction of a fraction of the result obtained here.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Honestly, I feel like all Post ToP scaling should be put aside until we have more feats of the characters interacting with each other. Especially with the Broly Movie, the characters in relation to where they were before and where they are now are kind of wonky.

 

[Giygas3]

@Kep

I believe not allowing stacking multipliers - for something explicity mentioned to multiply ones power by whatever given amount over and over again, should be allowed by all means in these given examples of 3-A. Such as Kaioken in this example. By these standards, it's almost impossible to get very high into 3-A - Simply because there CANNOT be any feats higher then just plain 3-A for your verse which plays by your average Universe - Unless the feat in question was destroying a Universe far larger than our own.

Post-ToP Goku Base 52,200x times 3-A ? Err..... Probably was 'wanking' the multipliers.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Kep

What's your opinion on my scaling chain? It's the latest one.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Also, no one used a multiplier of the billions, millions, or even in the thousands. They just used the Kaioken and SSJ multiple times. The reason the numbers got so big is because the characters become stronger in weaker forms then they were in stronger forms in previous arcs. For example, ToP SSG Goku would beat U6 SSB Goku. So when ToP SSG Goku goes SSB, you put the SSJ multiplier on him. I don't think there are any verses on this site that are 3-A and have characters that still use multipliers. I'm just going to quote what I said earlier.

" I mean, show feats, because actions speak louder than words. When you get to the point where the words start becoming wonky, you need feats to back it up. " - Cal

"But you can't get any feats at this level besides beating people that are in the same tier as you. Chances are, you got your original tier from being able to destroy the universe/multiverse you exist in. So unless there's another universe in your verse that's way bigger than the one you lived in before and has a confirmed size for how much bigger it is, there's nothing really there to help you feat wise." - Me

 

[Kaltias]

Madoka gets way stronger with each reset, and at the end of her resets, she should be comparable to feats done by her Witch form, which are at least planet level.

Where are the random hair-color changing forms that make the protagonist stomp the antagonist that was previously stomping them into the ground?

Where is the 30 man scaling list that goes on until a new feat is presented by the bad guy that is greater than the last?

Just going to point out real quick, in Madoka's case, it's a ~100 people scaling chain (well more like 90+ for Madoka, AoC is the one almost at 100).

The 5-B witch form was over 90 resets ago.

Not too relevant for this particular topic but I wanted to address it

Also Madoka's hair clearly can't change because magical girls in PMMM have to be monochromatic

 

[AKM sama]

First came the multiplier talk what with all the kaioken and super saiyan, then came a storm of comparisons between this franchise and that franchise and this and that. What even is this thread anymore? This has been derailed enough.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

First came the multiplier talk what with all the kaioken and super saiyan, then came a storm of comparisons between this franchise and that franchise and this and that. What even is this thread anymore? This has been derailed enough.

The comparisons were there because Cal wanted examples of other verses that had big multipliers like DB did. The only problem was that none of the infinite tier verses still used multipliers and none of the ones that used big multipliers were in the tiers that are infinite.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Okay, I figure I could give my own view on how Goku may scale in 3-A with multiplier bs.

Okay so, if I recall correctly it was estimated that Base Goku is over 10x universal after he fought Beerus. This was prior to the debates of the DB verse's actual size which has been estimated to be over 100x that of the observable universe. If this is accepted then this feat should be over 100x greater. That is, Base Goku would have to be over 1,000x 3-A after fighting Beerus.

We can not estimate how much stronger Goku grew from Whis's training so we will ignore it for now.

SSB Goku is vastly superior to SS3 Goku which is vastly superior to SS (accepted as being 40-50x multiplier) so Goku would be many times the power of someone 40-50,000x 3-A.

Goku then trained with Vegeta for three years but we can't estimate how much he would have grown.

Hit was capable of evolving his time skip to handle SSBKKX10 Goku...who would have been many times someone 400-500,000x 3-A (10x the previous due to KKX10 which is then multiplied by SSB). By the time of their rematch Goku can achieve a similar result.

Due to Blue Goku matching Hit after the Black arc we can ascertain that Post-Black, Pre-ToP Goku would be 400-500,000x 3-A in Super Saiyan.

Goku then was depicted as, physically, powerful as Hit (if not moreso) in the Tournament of Power itself with just God. Blue is generally accepted to be 40-50x God so if this is, indeed, accepted then that means Goku would have to be 50x stronger in the ToP than he was before.

ToP Pre-UI SS (Treated as God) Goku = 16,000,000-25,000,000x 3-A

ToP Pre-UI SS x 40-50 (Treated as Blue) Goku = 640,000,000-1,250,000,000

It is accepted that UIO is at least 40x SSB. Post-UIO2 Goku is stronger than UIO1 Goku.

Post-UIO2 SS x 40-50 (Treated as Blue) Goku = 25,600,000,000-50,000,000,000x 3-A

Post-UIO2 SS x 40-50 x 20 (Treated as Blue X20) Goku = 512,000,000,000-1,000,000,000,000x 3-A

Anything beyond this point is purely theory.

This is all heavily low-balled...as we can not calculate how much stronger Goku grew with Whis in a year or Vegeta in three years. The Hit scaling however provides credulence to ToP Goku being 500x the power of Universe 6 vs 7 Goku. (Presuming Hit didn't grow stronger until he fought and adapted to Dyspo and Jiren).

The final verdict, based purely on accepted multipliers and basic scaling takes Goku as being at, bare minimum, 1 Trillion times 3-A with Super Saiyan multiplied by Super Saiyan multiplied by Kaio-Ken X20.

To find the TRUE multiplier of Goku you would have to calculate SSG which is unfortunately improbable. But based purely on accepted Super Saiyan, Kaio-Ken and UIO multipliers we can ascertain that Goku is, indeed, 1 trillion times 3-A with Super Saiyan stacked by Blue and Kaio-Ken multipliers.

I know this obviously won't be accepted as 'true' but this IS the only acceptable scaling that can even remotely be presented based on accepted multipliers, accepted calculations and scaling based on Goku vs Hit.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

40 is the multiplier for SSJ on this site, not 50X.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I specifically gauged how strong the forms would be at 40x and 50x. That's what the range indicated by '-' separating numbers means. I note that I made an error with the form statements which I will correct to '40-50x' instead of 50x.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Ah and I must note that I forgot Post-UIO2 Goku scales into Low 2-C so that would be invalid for 3-A scaling. I will keep it regardless as it is interesting scaling. I have also noted an error with the Post-UIO2 SSBKKX20 figure which I fixed.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I have numerous personal problems with ratings on profiles because a character is way stronger than I imagined. But as long as there are actual statements, feats, and sensible scaling - I don't say anything - because the facts prove that I am the one in the wrong.

Amen

 

[Sptflcrw]

Again, we don't stack multipliers here. Not to mention Dragon Ball multipliers are inconsistant as hell.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Again, we don't stack multipliers here. Not to mention Dragon Ball multipliers are inconsistant as hell.

1. There's no stacking of multipliers here.

2. Dragon Ball multipliers for SSJ and Kaioken are accepted. That is not what is being discussed here.