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How far into 3-A are the ones for DBS

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I don't see anything that implies Goku was holding back. The humiliation was that Frieza lost to a Saiyan, not that he was holding back while he won.
Gokquits
Gokuquits
 
Kepekley23 said:
> Nope. Goku is constantly using X10 Kaio-Ken in extremely brief bursts
No he isn't. This has been debunked since the dawn of DBZ debating, come on...
Click to expand...
1. I haven't been around since the 'dawn of DBZ debating'

2. King Kai explicitly states Goku is using X10 against Frieza

3. Goku is forced to go X20 because X10 is ineffective

What is the actual argument that Goku wasn't using X10 against Frieza?
 
1. I haven't been around since the 'dawn of DBZ debating'

2. King Kai explicitly states Goku is using X10 against Frieza

3. Goku is forced to go X20 because X10 is ineffective

What is the actual argument that Goku wasn't using X10 against Frieza?

Yes, Goku used the Kaio-ken x10 against Frieza at one point. But on that scene where he was taking a beating, he was in base. He wasn't using Kaioken.
 
Piccolo did say that Frieza was just toying with Goku and that if he was 100% serious, he would have blown up the planet since the very beginning.
 
To be fair, Frieza being childish in his fighting is very in-character for him. Even after all his character development by the time of Broly, his justification of not making himself invincible is 'It wouldn't be fun'. Which brings into question if Frieza would actively lax in training just so Goku can be challenging to defeat...Probably not, but an interesting idea to consider in future arcs.

Frieza basically is a child when you think about it. He toys with people for reactions, he loves breaking things for the sake of it, he throws temper tantrums when things don't go his way, etc. One could argue that RoF was Frieza refusing to accept becoming an adult and the ToP is him finally becoming an adult.
 
I have a low ball multiplier for God Goku. In DBS Broly Base Broly > ssj Vegeta. Vegeta goes ssg and Broly responds by going ikari (which would be 10x) then is once again > Vegeta. Ssg. Vegeta was also more comparable to ikari Broly even though he was inferior. This makes ssg 10x stronger than ssj. With ssb we can use the 50x or 10x from the manga since ssg Goku is relative to 10% of ssb Vegeta.

This would make blue Goku and Vegeta between 5,000 and 25,000 times their base form.
 
Goku is stronger than Vegeta, but he's not That much stronger outside of Ultra Instinct.
 
Hmm. Well, most of it makes sense, but considering the amount of disagreement just the Super Saiyan multiplier is getting, I don't see how any more could be accepted. I'm not saying that the multiplier isn't true or has enough evidence, but on vsbw you need to have everyone's support to make a conclusion on the more important things so this kind of stuff can get stone walled by just a few people.
 
Looking at the multiplier page's qualifications, it does seem to fit most of the requirements. (Talking about OG SS btw)

"The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents."

"Lastly, multipliers will obviously only be used if they are not contradicted. A typical case of that would be if a character gets 10 times stronger, but fighters that were previously equal to it can still somehow keep up."

So considering that it has shown a clear increase in power and that there aren't contradictions, the only thing against it is that there isn't a specific statement saying "Super Saiyan makes you stronger by 50 times over!". There's also a part of it where it says that you can't get a multiplier through reasoning. So even in the Super Saiyan case, where Kaiokenx20 is weaker than 50% Freiza and Super Saiyan makes Goku stronger than 100% Frieza, it wouldn't be allowed due to no one outright saying it. I get that it's controversial to use multipliers since them being accepted is a recent thing so it's probably best to just use the Kaioken only scaling for the moment.
 
Here's my take on the matter. I don't mind when people try to find out exactly how strong Goku is. My problem comes in when they start using unofficial multipliers. It's never stated anywhere in the original manga what the multiplier is for any of the Super Saiyan forms. It's impossible to find multipliers for them, as they're just too inconsistent, which is to be expected. Akira obviously isn't going to be thinking about the multipliers for his transformations while writing, so we should accept that said multipliers will never be consistant. The only multipliers I'm alright with are multipliers that are stated in the source material, like Kaioken or the Oozaru form.
 
See, I've asked for inconsistencies, Cal gave a few examples, and they were all promptly debunked. If you can give inconsistencies for the original Super Saiyan form being the same level of strength as it was when Goku used it against Frieza on Namek then I would be perfectly fine with it. My problem with it not being accepted is that I don't see any examples that prove it not being consistent that can't be debunked by just looking at the manga.

"Akira obviously isn't going to be thinking about the multipliers for his transformations while writing, so we should accept that said multipliers will never be consistant."

How is this an argument if the same could be said for the ones that have statements of being multipliers?
 
Super Saiyans can't oneshot people who are around their base form's level. Besides, no where in the souce material is it stated what the SS multiplier is.

Even the ones with stated multipliers are inconsistant, but the multipliers are undeniably canon.
 
"Super Saiyans can't oneshot people who are around their base form's level."

I asked for an example, not a generalization.

"Besides, no where in the souce material is it stated what the SS multiplier is."

I never said it was. I said the opposite of that.

"Even the ones with stated multipliers are inconsistant, but the multipliers are undeniably canon."

You know we don't count canon things if they're inconsistent right? That's why we have stuff like Outliers. Like, it's canon that Icema knocked out Oblivio but you don't see a 1-A tier on his profile because it's inconsistent with his showings.
 
You and I both know that Goku has fought evenly with opponents in Super Saiyan that couldn't oneshot him in base. I don't need an example.

What? I'm confused. Where are you even getting the SS multiplier from?

I'm aware. It's more like they're less inconsistant. They're somewhat reasonable.
 
Yes, you do. That's literally what the point of I'm saying is. If you're not, then your argument boils down to "It's inconsistent, you should know that." Like, that's not valid by any means.

SSJ Goku > 100% Frieza > 50% Frieza > Goku times 20 To use words, a multiplier of 20 is less than one half of Frieza. So a multiplier of 40 would be less than a full Frieza. So Super Saiyan, which brings Goku higher than 100% of Frieza can be estimated to be around 40 times. It is logical and is found through reasoning. At no point did I say that there was a specific statement of what the multiplier is in the source material. This is what I said. "So even in the Super Saiyan case, where Kaiokenx20 is weaker than 50% Freiza and Super Saiyan makes Goku stronger than 100% Frieza, it wouldn't be allowed due to no one outright saying it."

Can you be more specific? What do you mean by less inconsistent?
 
Sptflcrw said:
You and I both know that Goku has fought evenly with opponents in Super Saiyan that couldn't oneshot him in base. I don't need an example.

What? I'm confused. Where are you even getting the SS multiplier from?

I'm aware. It's more like they're less inconsistant. They're somewhat reasonable.
Click to expand...
Give a specific example. Can't really think of any tbh.

Freiza? No. It's confirmed Frieza was toying with Goku

Android 19? Goku never fought 19 in base. Plus hed had a heart virus

Cell? Goku never fought Cell in base

Buu? Goku never fought Buu in base

I come to a loss has to who you're referring to
 
If you really want me to give an example, then fine. He wasn't instantly KO'd by Hit when he was in base. Happy?

No. That's exactly my problem. It's not stated anywhere that SS is a 40x multiplier. At the end of the day, no matter how logical and consistant it is, it's still just an unofficial multiplier, which we shouldn't use.
 
Sptflcrw said:
No. That's exactly my problem. It's not stated anywhere that SS is a 40x multiplier. At the end of the day, no matter how logical and consistant it is, it's still just an unofficial multiplier, which we shouldn't use.
Click to expand...
You do realize that those are the other two parts of what is necessary for a multiplier to be used right?
 
Fine, I'll find another example later, I can't right now though.

Read what I wrote. It doesn't matter how logical and consistant the multiplier is, no amount of evidence can make it official.
 
So, to put it this way, let's say two characters fought. These two are perfectly equal. One of these characters has an amp that has a stated and consistent multiplier of 20 times. Then lets say the other character has a transformation with no confirmed details. When the character uses the amp and the other character uses the transformation, the two of them are still equally matched. Logic would dictate that means that the other character's transformation that has no statements would also have a multiplier of 20 times. But your argument says that it wouldn't simply because it doesn't have a statement.
 
"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point."

This is a quote from Toriyama.
 
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