-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
How far into 3-A are the ones for DBS
- Thread starter DragonEmperor23
- Start date
- Status
- 30,261
- 31,873
Ah, I see. Nevermind that then. I'm also pretty sure Vegeta has an attack speed feat of him blowing up a far away planet with Final Flash. The base form upgrades for Buu saga cast would probably be one of the main things to consider though.
- 8,828
- 9,437
Because it's super inconsistant.
How?
How?
- 21,354
- 2,971
- Thread starter
- #244
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-QykeZAfpE
Doesn't Goku go from being comparable to Goku Black to going Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 and still being comparable to Goku Black?
Doesn't Goku go from being comparable to Goku Black to going Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 and still being comparable to Goku Black?
- 8,828
- 9,437
Goku went ssj2 because Goku Black was stronger than him and Goku knew he was holding back.
- 21,354
- 2,971
- Thread starter
- #247
Fair.
@DDM
Can you think of any other times that disprove Super Saiyan being the same multiplier?
@DDM
Can you think of any other times that disprove Super Saiyan being the same multiplier?
- 30,261
- 31,873
I don't know the biggest examples off the top of my head, but there are times where Goku was treated as being compatible but not overwhelmingly weaker than the person he was fighting in Base form, and SSJ hasn't change the outcome that much. SSJ transformations are just completely random on how big the jump is compared to SSJ. And while it would normally not be weaker than Kaioken, it also should be noted it uses less energy consumption would be the other reason for using SS instead of Kaioken.
And other times, it mainly increases raw power to overwhelming levels, but doesn't change speed that much.
And other times, it mainly increases raw power to overwhelming levels, but doesn't change speed that much.
- 1,673
- 289
SSBKK10 would actually be a 200x multiplier over base form, since it stacks super saiyan (which we know for a fact is above KK20) with a KK10.
So:
Base = 320x
SSBKK10 (U6 arc) = 64,000x
SSB (Hit rematch = 64,000x
SSBKK20 (Universe Survival saga) = 1,280,000x
And after that I'm pretty sure they scale to Low 2-C instead.
So:
Base = 320x
SSBKK10 (U6 arc) = 64,000x
SSB (Hit rematch = 64,000x
SSBKK20 (Universe Survival saga) = 1,280,000x
And after that I'm pretty sure they scale to Low 2-C instead.
- 3,013
- 2,023
I can't think of any examples from Z. Super might have some in the ToP.
The primary issue with arguing for SS inconsistency is the character. Most Saiyans will hold back to give their opponent the chance to keep up, purely for entertainment purposes. If you want to claim SS inconsistency you must find examples of Base vs SS scaling where the Saiyan is clearly trying to win.
SS being 40x at minimum is correct in the Frieza saga and Blue scaling to that works via scaling and statements in the show. So finding inconsistencies regarding the 40x figure would be best for constructing such arguments.
The primary issue with arguing for SS inconsistency is the character. Most Saiyans will hold back to give their opponent the chance to keep up, purely for entertainment purposes. If you want to claim SS inconsistency you must find examples of Base vs SS scaling where the Saiyan is clearly trying to win.
SS being 40x at minimum is correct in the Frieza saga and Blue scaling to that works via scaling and statements in the show. So finding inconsistencies regarding the 40x figure would be best for constructing such arguments.
- 21,354
- 2,971
- Thread starter
- #251
SSBKK10 would actually be a 200x multiplier over base form, since it stacks super saiyan (which we know for a fact is above KK20) with a KK10.
Where does this come from? I don't think we use multipliers for forms that are better than a different form that has an accepted multiplier.
Where does this come from? I don't think we use multipliers for forms that are better than a different form that has an accepted multiplier.
- 40,446
- 12,915
"Most Saiyans will hold back to give their opponent the chance to keep up, purely for entertainment purposes."
Gohan isn't one to do that so any of his fights. Same with Trunks and Cabba.
Gohan isn't one to do that so any of his fights. Same with Trunks and Cabba.
- 3,013
- 2,023
Frieza percentages scaling with Goku.
Goku barely survives by perfectly timing X10 Kaio-Ken against a restrained Frieza. X20 barely even injures 50% Frieza, who held a X20 Kamehameha back with one hand.
Frieza grows 2x stronger by going from 50% to 100%. SS Goku and 100% Frieza are comparable but Goku himself claims Frieza was losing power with each attack he performed.
Goku barely survives by perfectly timing X10 Kaio-Ken against a restrained Frieza. X20 barely even injures 50% Frieza, who held a X20 Kamehameha back with one hand.
Frieza grows 2x stronger by going from 50% to 100%. SS Goku and 100% Frieza are comparable but Goku himself claims Frieza was losing power with each attack he performed.
- 30,261
- 31,873
Gohan held back all the time as a Kid; though, that's for different reasons than Goku or Vegeta who hold back for fun. Gohan also held back against Krillin. Do have a point about Trunks and Cabba though.
- 8,373
- 3,043
The Dragon Ball scaling chain is so long it puts the Zelda verse to shame with the number of Links.
I'm ready for my ban for the horrible joke
- 3,013
- 2,023
Trunks and Cabba are fair argument. Cabba doesn't really have any notable scaling feats though. Other than Base Frieza stomping SS2 Cabba and feeling compelled to go Golden to tank SS2 Super Galick Gun, which he noted was a waste of energy to even transform for.
Trunks would be the best to scale. But Trunks was malnourished and weak in the Black arc, so that has to be considered for Black arc Trunks.
Trunks would be the best to scale. But Trunks was malnourished and weak in the Black arc, so that has to be considered for Black arc Trunks.
- 30,261
- 31,873
And Trunks also quickly skyrocketed after multiple zenkais.
- 3,013
- 2,023
- 21,354
- 2,971
- Thread starter
- #259
Yeah, Cabba's usage of SS has been pretty consistent. Gohan doesn't really use Super Saiyan anymore. Gohan only got SS in the time chamber and fought Cell before going SS2. I don't think there were any inconsistencies in his SS fights before he went Potential Unleashed in Buu saga. Same with Trunks in Z and Super.
- 3,013
- 2,023
So, basically. The only consistency issues with Super Saiyan would be found in...I think Goku? I don't recall Vegeta having any similar cases, outside of SSG Vegeta being trashed by Pseudo-Wrath Broly whereas SS Goku can take on Wrath Broly briefly.
Black and Goku were both clearly holding back the entire time and Black is consistently superior to Goku or Vegeta (or clearly gains the advantage after adapting to them).
Black and Goku were both clearly holding back the entire time and Black is consistently superior to Goku or Vegeta (or clearly gains the advantage after adapting to them).
- 30,261
- 31,873
There was one instance where Vegeta turned the tables on Black; everyone's literally getting stronger and stronger throughout the many fights. But in the end, Black or Zamasu became real threats when the fused however.
- 21,354
- 2,971
- Thread starter
- #262
So where does SS being an inconsistent multiplier come from when it's consistently either turned the table in fights or has been used to show that the opponent is so strong that even going SS doesn't mean you win?
- 3,013
- 2,023
That was Super Saiyan Blue, which is explained to just be Super Saiyan mixed with Super Saiyan God by Goku but could easily be different.
However, as you say. Everyone was growing constantly stronger in the Black arc. Hell, Goku curbstomped Black at one point when he got enraged...then was immediately stomped by Black's response. For those that don't remember, look here.
However, as you say. Everyone was growing constantly stronger in the Black arc. Hell, Goku curbstomped Black at one point when he got enraged...then was immediately stomped by Black's response. For those that don't remember, look here.
- 40,446
- 12,915
@Dragon. Because my dude, you're not realizing how big a 20x gap, let alone a 50x gap, is.
- 3,013
- 2,023
Sorry, it has been a while since I engaged in this thread. What is this '50x' gap referring to?
- 21,354
- 2,971
- Thread starter
- #266
@Cal
Dude, this is literally just the numbers/incredulity argument. You're arguing against the multiplier because it's too high for you to believe it's consistent/accurate. Can you give examples of times SS has been inconsistent in its usage rather than say the multiplier is wrong from the start because it's a 50X and not a 5X(5X as an example of a lower multiplier that would be acceptable from your argument, not as something you suggested earlier)?
@Cryo
50x/40x, the multiplier for SS.
Dude, this is literally just the numbers/incredulity argument. You're arguing against the multiplier because it's too high for you to believe it's consistent/accurate. Can you give examples of times SS has been inconsistent in its usage rather than say the multiplier is wrong from the start because it's a 50X and not a 5X(5X as an example of a lower multiplier that would be acceptable from your argument, not as something you suggested earlier)?
@Cryo
50x/40x, the multiplier for SS.
- 40,446
- 12,915
Because Goku in base could survive against half power Frieza but full power Frieza could contend with 75% of Goku.
Because KKx10 Goku didn't stomp Hit when Hit was on the level of base Goku. Hit's improvement wasn't that good otherwise he would've beaten Goku in their rematch and not had trouble against Dypso.
Because Trunks in the Black arc. Just...Trunks. No God ki but goes from Cell level to Golden Frieza level with a single SSJ transformation. He could at least survive against Black and matched base Goku.
Could probably think of more if I thought more.
Because KKx10 Goku didn't stomp Hit when Hit was on the level of base Goku. Hit's improvement wasn't that good otherwise he would've beaten Goku in their rematch and not had trouble against Dypso.
Because Trunks in the Black arc. Just...Trunks. No God ki but goes from Cell level to Golden Frieza level with a single SSJ transformation. He could at least survive against Black and matched base Goku.
Could probably think of more if I thought more.
- 15,407
- 5,717
It's not incredulity.
It's that you can't have a boost as high as, say, 10 and not have the battle be a stomp at point or another. If you can fight a character without being stomped, then the fight can't be fair after a 10 times boost. The reverse is true too. If you can fight someone on equal grounds when you have a 10 times boost, then you'd die instantly without the boost.
It's that you can't have a boost as high as, say, 10 and not have the battle be a stomp at point or another. If you can fight a character without being stomped, then the fight can't be fair after a 10 times boost. The reverse is true too. If you can fight someone on equal grounds when you have a 10 times boost, then you'd die instantly without the boost.
- 21,354
- 2,971
- Thread starter
- #269
Not sure how accurate this is due to being dubbed but Frieza says he was holding back before he went for 50%, After that he gets stomped until he uses KK but can't win the fight with it. Then he resorts to Spirit Bomb.
I'm pretty sure the Pure Progress only activates when he's pushed to his limits. So he wouldn't have gotten stronger in between his match with Goku in the tourney and the rematch. (just to be clear, we are talking about the rematch when Goku hired Hit to assassinate him right?)
What do you mean? Trunks was fighting against SSJ3 Goku in SSJ2. He was never Cell level in the Black arc.
@Saikou
It can if the other guy is holding back before you use the boost.
I'm pretty sure the Pure Progress only activates when he's pushed to his limits. So he wouldn't have gotten stronger in between his match with Goku in the tourney and the rematch. (just to be clear, we are talking about the rematch when Goku hired Hit to assassinate him right?)
What do you mean? Trunks was fighting against SSJ3 Goku in SSJ2. He was never Cell level in the Black arc.
@Saikou
It can if the other guy is holding back before you use the boost.
- 30,261
- 31,873
There's also the fact that Goku and Vegeta are fairly equal one day, but Base Goku is seemingly above SSB Vegeta the next. Such as battle with Hit and battle with Broly. Then again, Frieza was literally toying with Goku when he was 20x stronger where as Goku was the one toying with Frieza when he did go SSJ.
- 3,013
- 2,023
Because Goku in base could survive against half power Frieza
Nope. Goku is constantly using X10 Kaio-Ken in extremely brief bursts. It's even explained Goku is doing it so quickly that it's not perceivable. He was BARELY surviving by using X10 at that. X20 could barely bruise 50% Frieza's hand as well.
but full power Frieza could contend with 75% of Goku.
Where are you getting this '75% of Goku' figure from? 100% Frieza has always been comparable to SS Goku. He even puts up a decent fight at the start. Goku explicitly states Frieza is constantly losing power with every punch he makes, which is why Frieza was eventually curbstomped with ease.
Because KKx10 Goku didn't stomp Hit when Hit was on the level of base Goku.
SSB Goku and Hit were evenly matched. Base Goku was only fighting defensively and trying to understand Hit's style, with Hit having to restrain to not kill him.
X10 Goku not one-shotting Hit IS questionable but has nothing to do with Super Saiyan multiplier. It's also worth noting that Goku was already on the verge of collapsing before he did his Super Kamehameha.
Hit's improvement wasn't that good otherwise he would've beaten Goku in their rematch and not had trouble against Dypso.
As far as we know, the only notable person Hit would have adapted to by the ToP is Goku. When Hit actually gets the chance to adapt in the ToP, he nearly killed Jiren.
Because Trunks in the Black arc. Just...Trunks. No God ki but goes from Cell level to Golden Frieza level with a single SSJ transformation.
Super Saiyan Rage isn't Super Saiyan. It's an upgraded asspull variant just so Trunks can do something useful.
He could at least survive against Black and matched base Goku.
Base Black was fighting on-par with SS2 Goku. A heavily weakened SS2 Trunks couldn't do a thing to him, no inconsistency.
The inconsistency is Trunks somehow keeping up with the God-tiers but this Trunks is much older and a hybrid, so he has vastly superior potential. This isn't really relevant though, we are discussing Super Saiyan and Kaio-Ken multipliers.
Nope. Goku is constantly using X10 Kaio-Ken in extremely brief bursts. It's even explained Goku is doing it so quickly that it's not perceivable. He was BARELY surviving by using X10 at that. X20 could barely bruise 50% Frieza's hand as well.
but full power Frieza could contend with 75% of Goku.
Where are you getting this '75% of Goku' figure from? 100% Frieza has always been comparable to SS Goku. He even puts up a decent fight at the start. Goku explicitly states Frieza is constantly losing power with every punch he makes, which is why Frieza was eventually curbstomped with ease.
Because KKx10 Goku didn't stomp Hit when Hit was on the level of base Goku.
SSB Goku and Hit were evenly matched. Base Goku was only fighting defensively and trying to understand Hit's style, with Hit having to restrain to not kill him.
X10 Goku not one-shotting Hit IS questionable but has nothing to do with Super Saiyan multiplier. It's also worth noting that Goku was already on the verge of collapsing before he did his Super Kamehameha.
Hit's improvement wasn't that good otherwise he would've beaten Goku in their rematch and not had trouble against Dypso.
As far as we know, the only notable person Hit would have adapted to by the ToP is Goku. When Hit actually gets the chance to adapt in the ToP, he nearly killed Jiren.
Because Trunks in the Black arc. Just...Trunks. No God ki but goes from Cell level to Golden Frieza level with a single SSJ transformation.
Super Saiyan Rage isn't Super Saiyan. It's an upgraded asspull variant just so Trunks can do something useful.
He could at least survive against Black and matched base Goku.
Base Black was fighting on-par with SS2 Goku. A heavily weakened SS2 Trunks couldn't do a thing to him, no inconsistency.
The inconsistency is Trunks somehow keeping up with the God-tiers but this Trunks is much older and a hybrid, so he has vastly superior potential. This isn't really relevant though, we are discussing Super Saiyan and Kaio-Ken multipliers.
- 15,332
- 7,559
> Nope. Goku is constantly using X10 Kaio-Ken in extremely brief bursts
No he isn't. This has been debunked since the dawn of DBZ debating, come on...
No he isn't. This has been debunked since the dawn of DBZ debating, come on...
- 21,354
- 2,971
- Thread starter
- #273
"Because Goku in base could survive against half power Frieza but full power Frieza could contend with 75% of Goku."
Okay, so I went to the manga to look at scans to double check how the fight went. Throughout the fight it is consistently said that Freiza is holding back and toying with Goku while Goku is getting beat up and losing badly. Even the KKx20 Kamehameha isn't enough to beat a Frieza that is at 50% of his power. I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say 75% of Goku.
Okay, so I went to the manga to look at scans to double check how the fight went. Throughout the fight it is consistently said that Freiza is holding back and toying with Goku while Goku is getting beat up and losing badly. Even the KKx20 Kamehameha isn't enough to beat a Frieza that is at 50% of his power. I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say 75% of Goku.
- 8,090
- 1,544
Good thing it isn't like XV2... Where Goku's base a few weeks after his RoF Arc surpassed his SSB level from the RoF saga... Then surpassed that SSB level from that arc in his Base during the U6 and U7 Arc.... Then the level of 3A would've skyrocketed.
On the side of this discussion... I agree that Dragon's estimate was a safe lowball
On the side of this discussion... I agree that Dragon's estimate was a safe lowball
- 40,446
- 12,915
You misinterpreted what I said. SSJ Goku is the one who was using 75%.
- 15,332
- 7,559
He wasn't using 75%, he was at full power right from the start.
- 40,446
- 12,915
IIRc it was confirmed later down the line either through Daizenshui, an interview, or something that Goku wasn't going all out to humiliate Freeza more or something like that. Take that with a grain of salt though.
- 15,332
- 7,559
No, that wasn't stated in any source. And Goku himself said that it'd be a waste if both sides didn't fight at their best.
You're getting this all mixed up with Freeza temporarily rising his power to 70% in order to try and land a hit right after Goku's transformation.
You're getting this all mixed up with Freeza temporarily rising his power to 70% in order to try and land a hit right after Goku's transformation.
- 21,354
- 2,971
- Thread starter
- #279
- Status
Similar threads
