How far into 3-A are the ones for DBS

[The_real_cal_howard]

40+ time's multiplier is consistent when said gap should instantly kill someone you're fighting in a single hit and if it didn't, you should've been dead when you were at base.

Goku doing progressively better against Jiren shows that SSJ gets stronger upon each transformation. Duh. That's obvious. Anything less than Kaio Ken Blue, Jiren shouldn't have needed to do even the smallest thing because according to you guys, the gap is consistent.

 

[AKM sama]

You're literally addressing the trope that has been overused in DB since the get-go, yet ignoring it at the same time. I know it's general discussion thread, but it isn't going anywhere and everything has already been discussed. Just close this already.

 

[Warren_Valion]

40+ time's multiplier is consistent when said gap should instantly kill someone you're fighting in a single hit and if it didn't, you should've been dead when you were at base.
Goku doing progressively better against Jiren shows that SSJ gets stronger upon each transformation. Duh. That's obvious. Anything less than Kaio Ken Blue, Jiren shouldn't have needed to do even the smallest thing because according to you guys, the gap is consistent.

They should be disregarded because characters would be stomped? Have you watched Dragon Ball?

The series is littered with two things - characters stomping their opponent and holding back.

And it's confirmed for like every villain in the series. I'll go through it.


Vegeta was stomping Goku for most of their fight with Goku barely hanging on due to Kaio-Ken, the Spirit Bomb, and help from Krillin, Gohan, and Yajirobe.

Frieza held back against Goku in the Namek Saga. This is confirmed and was a plot point to showcase how immensely strong Frieza full power was.

Cell held back against everyone in the Cell Saga after obtaining his Perfect Form, even Goku - as shown when Gohan who is superior in power when compared to his father, still got stomped by Cell. It was because Cell was so strong that he was able to torture the Z-Fighters which pushed Gohan to ascend to Super Saiyan 2 and obtaining a level of strength which then had Gohan proceed to stomp Cell.

Fat Buu stomped Majin Vegeta and base Pre-ROSAT Gotenks and got stomped by barely trying SSJ3 Goku.

Super Buu stomped literally everyone who wasn't Super Saiyan 3 Post-ROSAT Gotenks (who was his equal), Mystic Gohan (who was his superior and stomped him), and Vegito (who was his superior and stomped him)

Kid Buu was I believe stated to not know the full depths of his strength because of how insane he was, but even then he stomped Good Buu and Vegeta, fought evenly (for a short time) with Super Saiyan 3 Goku (who was his equal).

Beerus always holds back and was looking for a fight in the Super Saiyan God.

Hit and the rest of the Universe 7 opponents were in a tournament with a no killing rule.

Goku Black was constantly getting stronger throughout that whole arc and those fights went from our heroes stomping him to Black stomping them and them retreating to fight later.

Jiren and every other person were in a tournament where they couldn't kill, and eventually, Goku was able to match Jiren via a ridiculous amount of limit breaking moments in the arc.


So I really don't see the problem.

"They should get stomped into the ground if the difference in strength is that big!" The thing is, they do.

Dragon Ball is littered with the villains stomping the good guys, keeping them alive to sate their sadism, and then the good guys getting a transformation that makes them stomp the bad guys.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Vegeta: Goku and Vegeta were fighting closely in base, though Vegeta had the edge. Kaio-Ken put him maybe slightly above while KKx2 and onwards were outright superior to Vegeta. Goku didn't need anything else up until Vegeta transformed.

Frieza: Was holding back. Goku once he went SSJ wasn't. Frieza should've been dead long before he used his gambit to achieve full power.

Cell: No he wasn't holding back against Goku. At best he was taking it lightly. And no, Gohan was outright vastly inferior to Cell up until SSJ2 (which btw, SSJ2 vs Cell helps me out as despite SSJ to SSJ2 being far less of a jump than base to SSJ, Gohan was stomping Cell to more of an extent than Goku was Frieza, and SSJ Gohan vs Perfect Cell was more one-sided than base Goku vs Frieza). Cell was outright disappointed of how much weaker Gohan was than Goku.

Buu: I'm admittedly unknowledgeable about the Buu saga as I didn't finish it yet.

Beerus: Doesn't count.

Hit: If Goku could keep up with Hit w/o KK, with KK, he should've won no problem.

Goku Black: Lol on Black at first being able to keep up with SSJ Goku during their first fight. Not to mention SSB being comparable to Trunks's SSJ2, or Future Zamasu putting up a fight with SSB, even though SSJ2 Goku beat him earlier.

Jiren and ToP: Kale and Caulifla. Enough said.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Vegeta: Goku and Vegeta were fighting closely in base, though Vegeta had the edge. Kaio-Ken put him maybe slightly above while KKx2 and onwards were outright superior to Vegeta. Goku didn't need anything else up until Vegeta transformed.
Frieza: Was holding back. Goku once he went SSJ wasn't. Frieza should've been dead long before he used his gambit to achieve full power.

Cell: No he wasn't holding back against Goku. At best he was taking it lightly. And no, Gohan was outright vastly inferior to Cell up until SSJ2 (which btw, SSJ2 vs Cell helps me out as despite SSJ to SSJ2 being far less of a jump than base to SSJ, Gohan was stomping Cell to more of an extent than Goku was Frieza, and SSJ Gohan vs Perfect Cell was more one-sided than base Goku vs Frieza). Cell was outright disappointed of how much weaker Gohan was than Goku.

Buu: I'm admittedly unknowledgeable about the Buu saga as I didn't finish it yet.

Beerus: Doesn't count.

Hit: If Goku could keep up with Hit w/o KK, with KK, he should've won no problem.

Goku Black: Lol on Black at first being able to keep up with SSJ Goku during their first fight. Not to mention SSB being comparable to Trunks's SSJ2, or Future Zamasu putting up a fight with SSB, even though SSJ2 Goku beat him earlier.

Jiren and ToP: Kale and Caulifla. Enough said.

Vegeta traded a few blows with base Goku to get a read on Goku's strength and skill, and then proceeded to actually start trying in their fight. After that, Vegeta had the solid edge in battle strength. Goku had to spam Kaio-Ken x2 just to barely keep up with Vegeta. Going Kaio-ken x3 and beyond was destroying Goku's body, ripping the muscles apart - King Kai warned against it. Then Vegeta transformed into a Great Ape.

Goku immediately crushed Frieza hand, pimp-slapped him all around Namek, and then tanked his strongest attacks. Gok was stomping Frieza until Frieza asked for him to use his full power - which Goku allowed as he wanted to brutally destroy Frieza at his best for what he did to Krillin.

Cell WAS holding back against Goku. SSJ Teen Gohan was stronger than SSJ Goku by Goku's own admission. And Cell stomped that Gohan. After being pushed to his mental limits with the death of 16, and becoming a Super Saiyan 2, Gohan dragged out the fight because he wanted to make Cell suffer for what he has done - even disobeying his father when Goku told Gohan to end it. Giving Cell the chance to blow himself up. When Cell came back, he was on an even level as Gohan.

Buu: Done

Beerus: Done

Hit has an adaptive ability like the Saiyans - he gets stronger the more he fights. Even during the Tournament, Hit's Time Skip improved from 0.1 seconds to I think 0.2 or 0.5. Hit constantly improved throughout the fight, so while he was initially overwhelmed by the immense power of Kaio-Ken, he adapted.

Black was the same as Hit. Originally, he was Super Saiyan 2 tier, but throughout their fights he got boosted to Super Saiyan Blue tier and was constantly getting stronger to the point where he would stomp the good guys into the ground until the good guys retreated to the present timeline, trained, and went back to stomp Black until he adapted again.

Kale and Caulifla were learning at an incredible rate, but Goku, Vegeta, Jiren, and many others were still their superiors, so I don't see your point. Not to mention, there was still tournament rules, so they wouldn't try killing others. And IIRC, didn't Caulifla take out numerous fodders causally?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

To add to this. Remember that the Saiyan's Zenkai ability isn't just an active ability that is triggered from taking damage. Zenkai boosts are also passive in the sense that Saiyans can grow stronger as they fight due to their bodies naturally adapting to physical strain. Goku and Vegeta literally grow stronger as they fight.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I don't recall that happening for Goku and Vegeta ever. The girls, yes. But definitely not those two.

 

[The_Causality]

Cal, Drop this, it's better for you to don't add some stress to you

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Goku adapting to Super Saiyan God is one instance of it. His limit breaks with Ultra Instinct is arguably other instances of his usage of it. Vegeta seemingly did so against Toppo as his powers increased the harder he was pushed (albeit this may have been due to rage boosting). Black abused the Zenkai ability to evolve and adapt his body to Goku's own body (as they are copies of the same physical form).

Generally speaking the Saiyans are adept at evolving their power against superior opponents and when adapting their body to higher levels of power (Like SSG and UI boosting Goku's abilities massively).

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

But that's more of a Super thing because, in all honesty, nothing like that ever happened during DB or DBZ. Futhermore, the Toppo situation felt more like an emotion boost, Goku got stronger every time after he used UI specifically, and in the case of Black he got stronger after copying Goku's style as it was made for his body pretty much, after getting a clear Zenkai from a ton of damage, and after directly stating he would tap into his rage as he saw Vegeta and Goku do.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

But I agree this is not going anywhere and the thread should just be closed.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

What makes you say that? It seemed pretty conclusive until I bumped it and new opinions came in. Right now, the main things against it seem to be the argument that Super Saiyan and Kaioken should stop being counted as multipliers. If that was settled in a CRT and made into a discussion rule, then this could be settled.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I meant more AKM pointing out this has been discussed to the point it's tiring. Doesn't seem like anything new has been brought up.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

The 3-A scaling chain? I just wanted to make sure everyone was on board with it. If it's the argument of anti SSJ and Kaioken multipliers that's been discussed and debunked, then that's the fault of the argument, not this thread. The problem would be resolved if complaints that had a different reason were used, right?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I think there's a misconception where the numbers come from zenkai boosts or imaginary multipliers from stomps so I'm going to repeat the scaling chain but then explain each step.

8 (End of Battle of Gods/Resurrection of Frieza/Universe 6 Tournament Base Goku) x 40 = 320

So first off, it starts with an 8. This 8 represents Goku after absorbing the power of SSG into base form, making him eight times baseline 3-A in base. Then you factor in Super Saiyan where it is an accepted multiplier of 40 times on this wiki. Now, I know that Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 do not have accepted multipliers, so I'm going to go to a complete lowball and say that Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan God,and Super Saiyan 3 does not make you any stronger. In SSB, we have Super Saiyan stacked on top of SSG, so that's another 40X boost.

X 40 = 12,800 (Universe 6 Tournament SSB) x 10 = 128,000 (Universe 6 Tournament SSBKKx10/Future Trunks Saga SSB/Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSG)

Then I multiplied it by ten, using the times ten Kaioken Multiplier that is accepted on this wiki. There is also Universal Saga Goku before the Ultra Instinct SSG. The reason I have put that there is because Goku at that time is stronger than Dypso who is stronger than Hit who is stronger than the Hit of the U6 Tournament who was equal to SSBKKx10 Goku.

x 40 = 5,120,000 (Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSB)

I then multiplied it by fourty as again, that is the accepted multiplier for SSJ and SSB is just SSJ on top of SSG.

x 20 = 102,400,000 (Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSBKKx20

I have also done another Kaioken X20 multiplier, because Kaioken making him 20 times stronger, which is accepted.

So Goku at SSBKKx20 in the ToP saga before ultra instinct is 102,400,000 times baseline 3-A. Now, I understand this is a really big number and means that Goku is high into the tier. I have not used any multipliers for training, any multipliers for zenkais, and anything involving powerlevels or stomp fights. The only numbers I have used here are the original 8 times baseline, the accepted SSJ multiplier, and the accepted Kaioken multiplier. Again, I get it's a really big number but if anyone has a disagreement, please just explain it in a logical manner why you disagree with a proper argument instead of saying that it's too big or that it's wank.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Seriously, name one other franchise PERIOD that gets away with this sh*t. Only one I can think of is God of High School, which I have just as big a problem with.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Seriously, name one other franchise PERIOD that gets away with this sh*t. Only one I can think of is God of High School, which I have just as big a problem with.

"Again, I get it's a really big number but if anyone has a disagreement, please just explain it in a logical manner why you disagree with a proper argument instead of saying that it's too big or that it's wank."

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Answer my question.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Seriously, name one other franchise PERIOD that gets away with this sh*t. Only one I can think of is God of High School, which I have just as big a problem with.

Also, this gal and this boy.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Dude, those support my point, if anything. If they got away with it like Dragon Ball, they'd be STRONGER than the peak of DB's 3-A with their multipliers.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Seriously, name one other franchise PERIOD that gets away with this sh*t. Only one I can think of is God of High School, which I have just as big a problem with.

Name another franchise that has this amount of scaling, and has these many forms or buffs with accepted multipliers.

Other franchises aren't DB, and trying to make a comparison is just faulty logic.

 

[Wokistan]

The Cthulhu mythos

 

[DragonEmperor23]

You asked me to give examples of characters with giant scaling chains to support my point. I don't know why you would then use that information to say that it supports yours. What even is your point? Why would Dragon Ball having a big scaling chain be more valid if other verses have big scaling chains? They're completely different and unconnected from each other.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Digimon. Shin Megami Tensei. Chrono Cross. Pokemon. Yu Yu Hakusho. Bakugan. Those are just the ones I know off the top of my head.

You're acting like forms and scaling are unique to Dragon Ball. It's not.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You asked me to give examples of characters with giant scaling chains to support my point. I don't know why you would then use that information to say that it supports yours. What even is your point? Why would Dragon Ball having a big scaling chain be more valid if other verses have big scaling chains? They're completely different and unconnected from each other.

I'm going to be very blunt as I'm really tired of DB. My point is that DB powerscaling is bullshit and is used to wank the characters to numbers that are never shown. Unbacked numbers are unbacked.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Digimon. Shin Megami Tensei. Chrono Cross. Pokemon. Yu Yu Hakusho. Bakugan. Those are just the ones I know off the top of my head.
You're acting like forms and scaling are unique to Dragon Ball. It's not.

He's not talking about forms and scaling. Those exist literally everywhere. He's talking about a verse where characters are 3-A, the tier that's literally infinite, and have multipliers to show how far they go into that tier. You can't compare everything to Dragon Ball because this is the same. There is no limit to how far into 3-A they can be.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Methuselah has numerous planet level attacks littered with the strength of one hundred nights. One night can destroy half a planet.


Madoka gets way stronger with each reset, and at the end of her resets, she should be comparable to feats done by her Witch form, which are at least planet level.


Where are the random hair-color changing forms that make the protagonist stomp the antagonist that was previously stomping them into the ground?

Where is the 30 man scaling list that goes on until a new feat is presented by the bad guy that is greater than the last?

How does that their scenarios compare to Dragon Ball, like at all? Because they use undisclosed multipliers? If so, we don't use Dragon Ball's undisclosed multipliers, we use accepted known ones.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You're right. And I'm sorry. Clearly that means their scaling can reach up to infinity-1 because infinite tier. It's not like three of those examples I used were with 2-A, an even more infinite tier.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

"I'm going to be very blunt as I'm really tired of DB. My point is that DB powerscaling is bullshit and is used to wank the characters to numbers that are never shown. Unbacked numbers are unbacked."

Seriously? What you do you mean by numbers that are never shown? Do you want Goku to say that his punches do X times 10^(insert exponent) Joules? Is there a move description that says Defog causes exactly 326 megatons of force? You're calling my numbers unbacked but they're made using numbers that are accepted by the wiki. You aren't even explaining why you think this is wank besides the fact that there's a big number.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

You're right. And I'm sorry. Clearly that means their scaling can reach up to infinity-1 because infinite tier. It's not like three of those examples I used were with 2-A, an even more infinite tier.

Okay, sure. Show me the multiplier that 2-A Digimon use.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Digimon. Shin Megami Tensei. Chrono Cross. Pokemon. Yu Yu Hakusho. Bakugan. Those are just the ones I know off the top of my head.
You're acting like forms and scaling are unique to Dragon Ball. It's not.

I never said forms and scaling are unique to Dragon Ball.


That a strawman.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"Where is the 30 man scaling list that goes on until a new feat is presented by the bad guy that is greater than the last?"

Digimon: Scaling chain about a hundred Digimon wide. Some of them stomp to the point of a feather being more powerful than their entire bodies.

Shin Megami Tensei: I don't really need to say much.

Chrono Cross: A broken piece of Lavos in base form millions upon millions of years ago before it started gaining power is nothing compared to Time Devourer and yet it still has its own scaling chain.

Yu Yu Hakusho: Raizen in his prime can beat the entire demon population alone. An upper S class can one-shot hundreds of S class demons at once, who can in turn do the same to Lower S Class demons, who can do the same to A class demons.

 

[Dark649]

Raizen is likely going to be upgraded to at least High 6-A, also i'm getting tired of this thread.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"I'm going to be very blunt as I'm really tired of DB. My point is that DB powerscaling is bullshit and is used to wank the characters to numbers that are never shown. Unbacked numbers are unbacked."

Seriously? What you do you mean by numbers that are never shown? Do you want Goku to say that his punches do X times 10^(insert exponent) Joules? Is there a move description that says Defog causes exactly 326 megatons of force? You're calling my numbers unbacked but they're made using numbers that are accepted by the wiki. You aren't even explaining why you think this is wank besides the fact that there's a big number.

I mean, show feats, because actions speak louder than words. When you get to the point where the words start becoming wonky, you need feats to back it up.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

That's just a scaling chain.


Where's the multipliers? I never used any made up numbers from stomping someone in a fight.

 

[Warren_Valion]

"Where is the 30 man scaling list that goes on until a new feat is presented by the bad guy that is greater than the last?"
Digimon: Scaling chain about a hundred Digimon wide. Some of them stomp to the point of a feather being more powerful than their entire bodies.

Shin Megami Tensei: I don't really need to say much.

Chrono Cross: A broken piece of Lavos in base form millions upon millions of years ago before it started gaining power is nothing compared to Time Devourer and yet it still has its own scaling chain.

Yu Yu Hakusho: Raizen in his prime can beat the entire demon population alone. An upper S class can one-shot hundreds of S class demons at once, who can in turn do the same to Lower S Class demons, who can do the same to A class demons.

Do any of those examples have accepted multipliers on the wiki that are used in their scaling, or is it just vague, "X stomps Y who stomps Z, et cetera"?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

" I mean, show feats, because actions speak louder than words. When you get to the point where the words start becoming wonky, you need feats to back it up. "

But you can't get any feats at this level besides beating people that are in the same tier as you. Chances are, you got your original tier from being able to destroy the universe/multiverse you exist in. So unless there's another universe in your verse that's way bigger than the one you lived in before and has a confirmed size for how much bigger it is, there's nothing really there to help you feat wise.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Here's one:

Agility doubles a Pokemon's speed. Pokemon barely need to be more than 2x faster to reach Rel+. Yet none of them are Rel+, even the ones that scale faaaaaar above it.

And that's just a 2 times multiplier.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Raizen is likely going to be upgraded to at least High 6-A, also i'm getting tired of this thread.

Please don't close it. We're not throwing serious insults or anything, we're just disagreeing and explaining our thoughts to each other.

 

[Dark649]

I already espressed that i doubt the Relativistic speed rating for the Pokémon's, anyway i will not comment further.