Goku Vs. Dialga

[ChosenOrDeath]

I mean
Goku tries to blast the multiverse

Dialga says "no u" and reverts time and gets serious

He can't revert time if it's destroyed.

 

[Akreious]

"Scales to Demigra as in what? Power or actual ability? "

Everything? Xeno Goku is just flat superior to Demigra in every way except hax, and Demigra was using brute force to destroy the Multiverse. Not any specific hax.

"Because if the former, that doesnt mean Goku's range is able to stretch across all time and space. That speaks simply for his AP. Just because you are stronger than a character who has the range to destroy x doesnt mean that your range suddenly becomes objectively as good without having feats for it. "

Except that Demigra was explicitly brute-forcing when doing that feat rather than using any sort of hax. It was his Ki that was powerful enough to threaten the Multiverse; Goku has superior amounts of Ki and comparable Ki Control. Therefore, Goku can do what Demigra did.

"Same thing for threats. Threats to a timeline =/= having the specific range to destroy said timeline."

See above.

"The one thing I see that could be otherwise is being strong enough to erase history and even then that would be only be the case of damage, not the attacks actually spreading throughout all of that range. But I can be overcomplicating this last part."

Nah, you're not overcomplicating anything here. Tas' fair.

Edit:

"I mean

Goku tries to blast the multiverse

Dialga says "no u" and reverts time and gets serious"

How do you reverse something that isn't there...?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

The info Analysis lets you know all the moves of the enemy and how strong they are.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

This entire argument so far has been ,"Does Dialga use his hax before Goku oneshots him?" When fighting two other multiversal beings, his first go to( at least from what I've seen) was Draco Meteor. Goku is more likely to be serious and( since he knows his opponent is omnipresent in this realm) try and destroy the realm. The realm should be smaller than the DB Multiverse, which Goku can destroy in SSJ1. This is SSJ4 Goku. He doesn't even need to transform. he just needs to Majin Vegeta (without the kamikaze aspect) after sensing Dialga. He simply needs to do this before Dialga try and physically hit him due to Dialga distorting casual law.

He actually doesn't know this at all. Just wanted to point that out.

 

[TriforcePower1]

He can as long as it's not fully destroyed.

 

[The_Calaca]

I mean
Goku tries to blast the multiverse

Dialga says "no u" and reverts time and gets serious

If he somehow survives by some miracle.

 

[TriforcePower1]

If he somehow survives by some miracle.

I somehow doubt he can destroy the multiverse instantly.

 

[Akreious]

This entire argument so far has been ,"Does Dialga use his hax before Goku oneshots him?" When fighting two other multiversal beings, his first go to( at least from what I've seen) was Draco Meteor. Goku is more likely to be serious and( since he knows his opponent is omnipresent in this realm) try and destroy the realm. The realm should be smaller than the DB Multiverse, which Goku can destroy in SSJ1. This is SSJ4 Goku. He doesn't even need to transform. he just needs to Majin Vegeta (without the kamikaze aspect) after sensing Dialga. He simply needs to do this before Dialga try and physically hit him due to Dialga distorting casual law.

He actually doesn't know this at all. Just wanted to point that out.

Actually he would. If Dialga is legit everywhere, Goku would sense Dialga everywhere. Since... Dialga is everywhere.

Also, again, Infinite Zamasu. Goku's seen something like Dialga before in the sense that they're omnipresent.

"I somehow doubt he can destroy the multiverse instantly."

It wouldn't matter. Xenoverse's Multiverse is significantly larger than the Pokemon Multiverse. If Demigra was threatening to destroy all of Dragon Ball's Multiverses at once, Goku has more than enough power to destroy Dialga's realm in comparison.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Warren.
Dialga is literal time. Has time abilities that will screw over Goku. Goku's attacks get aged to death by Dialga. Goku gets his causality warped by Dialga attacking. Goku gets stuck in a time loop if Dialga thinks about it. Goku gets time stopped by someone much more skilled than Hit with time stop if he so wills. This is the omnipresent Dialga at that.

1. So he's time. Ok...I don't see how that effects the outcome of the fight.

2. Again, this means nothing on its own.

3. Would definitly work, but does he lead with it?

4. His causality warped? What does that even mean?

5. Ok, but does he lead with it?

6. Xeno Goku's profile is wrong, he doesn't get his Time Stop resistence from Hit, he never even fought hit. He gets it from Demigra stopping time on the multiverse and not being effected by it, if I recall correctly that is.

7. Being Omnipresent means nothing if Goku can just nuke the multiverse. I mean, look at Zeno vs. Zamasu.


So from what I got is that Dialga has many time-related abilites that can kill Goku, but no indication that he leads with any of them before Goku would just one-shot him AP-wise. That's pretty much what I understood from reading the thread, but thanks for trying.


I got to go to sleep now, so @Everyone, Goodnight!

 

[SSJRyu1]

Goku one shots him and the realm due to AP. Dialga doesn't likely start with time hax, and Goku resists time stop anyway, or returns from temporal bfr with IT since he has crossed timelines with that before. Voting Goku.

Also don't underestimate Xeno Goku's hax, he actually has alot on the profile already, and many yet to be added

 

[HST_Master]

Also again, how good is this Info Analaysis? I never got an answer to that.

Anyway, I also should try and point out that "Dialga never actively using x hax against y opponent" is pretty stupid given literally only 3 opponents in his entire verse would ever even remotely require Dialga to use things beyond a basic arsenal.

And keep in mind, all 3 of these opponents are resistant to what Dialga has and 1 of them can godstomp him and the other 2 before breakfast.

It's called being in character. Other characters aren't immune to that flaw neither

 

[Akreious]

Info Analysis is "Knows all the moves the opponent has" and "I can sense power levels so I know how powerful you are"

 

[Xerkser500]

I mean
Goku tries to blast the multiverse

Dialga says "no u" and reverts time and gets serious

This is actually a good point. Unless Goku is instantly busting the Multiverse, whats stopping Dialga from just reversing time to stop Goku from doing that? Dialga would literally only need, like, a moment.

I'll respond to the rest in the second since comments like every 5 seconds are being posted.

 

[ChosenOrDeath]

Anyway, I also should try and point out that "Dialga never actively using x hax against y opponent" is pretty stupid given literally only 3 opponents in his entire verse would ever even remotely require Dialga to use things beyond a basic arsenal.

And keep in mind, all 3 of these opponents are resistant to what Dialga has and 1 of them can godstomp him and the other 2 before breakfast.

When he met two of these opponents( Darkrai and Palkia) he didn't use his hax. This is why we believe he wouldn't use it first. Atleast, until Cal talks about lore.

 

[SSBXeno573]

@Triforce

I mean...Goku was restricted from going SSJ4 for the safety of time/the multiverse. Just him going SSJ4 destroys/messes with time.

And let's not forget that much weaker characters were causing the multiverse to collapse with just his presence.

 

[Akreious]

I mean
Goku tries to blast the multiverse

Dialga says "no u" and reverts time and gets serious

This is actually a good point. Unless Goku is instantly busting the Multiverse, whats stopping Dialga from just reversing time to stop Goku from doing that? Dialga would literally only need, like, a moment.
I'll respond to the rest in the second since comments like every 5 seconds are being posted.

Unless Dialga has feats of reversing time when there is no time, that still wouldn't work since all the destroyed timelines Goku busted would still be gone. You cannot reverse nothing. So reversing time when Goku has already started to begin his attack wouldn't really do anything. Although it might save the ones that weren't instantly caught in Goku's attack.

 

[Quantu]

@SSBXeno573

Also keep in mind the DBH multiverae is unfathamobly larger than Pokemon multiverse. Goku could legit one shot by breathing

 

[The_Calaca]

Yeah, the argument of Goku not destroying the entire timeline is baseless.

 

[Xerkser500]

The first point, again, doesnt mean anything still. Because being stronger than someone =/= your range is superior too. Brute force or not. A character has never gotten superior range for scaling above someone who can destroy something on x level and Goku should not either. It only means their AP is stronger than the aformentioned opponent.

See above for the second point.

See above as well for the 3rd point.

 

[Xerkser500]

The info Analysis lets you know all the moves of the enemy and how strong they are.

Im going to have to call a No Limits Fallacy on this then. What are the actual limitations of this?

 

[Akreious]

Also keep in mind that Goku's an experienced Time Patroller who has large knowledge on the canon timeline.

Which would include Infinite Zamasu; meaning he's seen and knows about how to deal with Omnipresent beings that's become one (Or is already one) with their current universe (or in this case, Multiverse). In the sense that "Just nuke it" seems to work.

 

[ChosenOrDeath]

Goku's range is Multiversal on his profile. That means the DB Mulitverse. Which is bigger than the Pokemon Mulitverse as of right now.

 

[Xerkser500]

It's called being in character. Other characters aren't immune to that flaw neither

I never said Dialga was immune from having an in-character. Im saying that literally all of Dialga's opponents, who are actually on his level and worth a damn on like anything, are resistant to his level of time abilities, obviously excluding Arceus who can just straight up stomp him to death.

Dialga not using time abilities immediately on opponents such as makes reasonable sense and should not apply to any run of the mill opponent ever. Unless we're seriously going to say Dialga wouldnt try time haxing a pikachu or pidgey in a normal scenerio and be done with it?

 

[TriforcePower1]

How is Dialga's omnipresence on a 4D affected by speed equal? Legit question, as we also give people with infinite speed resistance to time stop, for example.

 

[Akreious]

"The first point, again, doesnt mean anything still. Because being stronger than someone =/= your range is superior too. Brute force or not. A character has never gotten superior range for scaling above someone who can destroy something on x level and Goku should not either. It only means their AP is stronger than the aformentioned opponent.

See above for the second point.

See above as well for the 3rd point."

Dude, what? Demigra did his feat via brute force and fine Ki Control. Goku has comparable Ki control and even more brute force. Why wouldn't Goku scale in range?

You're literally arguing "Character A has a 9mm Pistol and can do X amount of damage at Y range. Even though Character B has a 50 Cal. Sniper Rifle that deals way more than X Amount of Damage, it has never shown Y Range and therefore has less range than Character A".

Demigra's feat is demonstrated to functionally work in the same way other characters use their Ki. Goku, who has superior amounts of Ki and comparable control and skill with it, should be capable of the same feat.

You're treating Demigra's feat as if it's done via some special way or it's done via a unique ability only Demigra has, but that simply isn't the case.

 

[ChosenOrDeath]

I never said Dialga was immune from having an in-character. Im saying that literally all of Dialga's opponents, who are actually on his level and worth a damn on like anything, are resistant to his level of time abilities.

Dialga not using time abilities immediately on opponents such as makes reasonable sense and should not apply to any run of the mill opponent ever. Unless we're seriously going to say Dialga wouldnt try time haxing a pikachu or pidgey in a normal scenerio and be done with it?

You're wrong. Dialga time-looped Giratina.

 

[Xerkser500]

I never said Dialga was immune from having an in-character. Im saying that literally all of Dialga's opponents, who are actually on his level and worth a damn on like anything, are resistant to his level of time abilities.

Dialga not using time abilities immediately on opponents such as makes reasonable sense and should not apply to any run of the mill opponent ever. Unless we're seriously going to say Dialga wouldnt try time haxing a pikachu or pidgey in a normal scenerio and be done with it?

You're wrong. Dialga time-looped Giratina.

And the point is?

 

[HST_Master]

Um what? He still used Roar of Time later on in their fights so idk what you're trying to say with their resistances, he still tried those moves later on.

> Actually on his level

So is Xeno Goku. Your point?

And yes if he hasn't been shown leading with these moves, and his mentality isn't "Time Hax whatever moves" then it's not in character for him to do so.

 

[ChosenOrDeath]

Xerkser500 wrote And the point is?

You said opponents who are worth a damn are resistant to his time abilities. He time-looped Giratina.

 

[Xerkser500]

"The first point, again, doesnt mean anything still. Because being stronger than someone =/= your range is superior too. Brute force or not. A character has never gotten superior range for scaling above someone who can destroy something on x level and Goku should not either. It only means their AP is stronger than the aformentioned opponent.
See above for the second point.

See above as well for the 3rd point."

Dude, what? Demigra did his feat via brute force and fine Ki Control. Goku has comparable Ki control and even more brute force. Why wouldn't Goku scale in range?

You're literally arguing "Character A has a 9mm Pistol and can do X amount of damage at Y range. Even though Character B has a 50 Cal. Sniper Rifle that deals way more than X Amount of Damage, it has never shown Y Range and therefore has less range than Character A".

Just like no character period ever gets range on the level of their AP just for being stronger than someone else? Unless this wiki does things differently all of a sudden, I have never seen anyone give x character more range than Y character just because the former destroys something through brute power.

As for your gun example, that isnt very good since not every gun or pistal ever made has the same range for how far bullets go when launched. Just because x bullet can destroy, lets say a wall and y bullet can destroy boulders doesnt mean Y bullet is fired at a range superior to X bullet.

 

[Akreious]

"Just like no character period ever gets range on the level of their AP just for being stronger than someone else? Unless this wiki does things differently all of a sudden, I have never seen anyone give x character more range than Y character just because the former destroys something through brute power."

You're not getting something. Demigra's feats is fundementally not special at all. He's literally just raising his Ki to high enough heights that it threatened the Multiverse. Anyone stronger should be capable of that because Demigra did the feat via sheer force.

Another example of range via power would be something like Ultra Instinct Goku pre-Low 2-C having High 3-A and similar range since that's where his feat comes from. If a character is stronger than High 3-A UI Goku, they should have similar AP and Range because the feat is just generating enough force to shake something.

"As for your gun example, that isnt very good since not every gun or pistal ever made has the same range for how far bullets go when launched. Just because x bullet can destroy, lets say a wall and y bullet can destroy boulders doesnt mean Y bullet is fired at a range superior to X bullet."

Except I explicitly said a 9mm Pistol and a 50. Caliber Sniper. Because that comparison is basically what I'm doing with Xeno Goku and Demigra. Demigra at the time of the Multiverse Feat lost to Super Saiyan 1 Xeno Goku. Super Saiyan 4 Xeno Goku completely, utterly, and easily wrecks Super Saiyan 1 Xeno Goku. Therefore, Super Saiyan 4 Xeno Goku should at least have the same range as Demigra.

 

[ChosenOrDeath]

Just like no character period ever gets range on the level of their AP just for being stronger than someone else? Unless this wiki does things differently all of a sudden, I have never seen anyone give x character more range than Y character just because the former destroys something through brute power.

Goku has multiversal on his profile in range. That is according to the DBverse so his range is actually higher than Dialga.

 

[Akreious]

I honestly don't know where your mentality of "Higher AP never means higher range" comes from? With some select exceptions, if a feat is done via sheer force, any stronger character always scales since they're the direct superiors of the original character.

 

[ChosenOrDeath]

Couldn't Goku make a small ki barrier around himself at the beginning that destroys the time surrounding his body (like in the ToP except for destoying time instead)? Dialga couldn't time hax him if there is no time surrounding him.

 

[Akreious]

Ignoring the fact that TokiToki-absorbed Demigra (A weaker Demigra than the Demigra that Goku defeated) had total control over space and time of the DB Multiverse (Meaning a higher scale of Time Manipulation than Dialga) couldn't Timestop the Time Patrollers, and more notably, Xeno Goku.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Keep in mind that Pokemon exists on multiverse theory too. I got the scans.

 

[SSBXeno573]

Keep in mind that Pokemon exists on multiverse theory too. I got the scans.

Would you mind posting them?

 

[Xerkser500]

@HST

>Still used Roar of Time later in fights.

Because Dialga is actually smart enough to realize "oh this dude resists my stuff so I better use other stuff first" to save it for later? No sane character would ever intentfully use a move they know their opponent will not be insta-defeated, or even heavily damaged, by from the beginning. Heck, when he did use Roar of Time, Palkia literally just got a small crack on his shoulder and fought the rest of the movie like it never happened.

Being intelligent enough to use other moves that can be more effective first hand doesnt become the standard of every single appearnce ever with random people. Dialga knew Palkia first hand.

@Chosen

And I still dont see the point of that. Giratina obviously doesnt have immunity to time hax, immunity in general is an NLF. Him being resistant doesnt mean he can't be offed by the same type of hax.

@Akrieous

Or maybe Demigra's KI has the actual capability / feat of traversing the entire Multiverse to destroy it? Why him doing it through sheer force should automatically have the range slapped on to stronger people because of that makes no sense.

As for the U.I. example, okay tell me this. What if that said opponent literally just beats down goku in a direct combat fight or just overpowers him with blasts? That doesnt mean that character suddenly gets the feat of destroying stuff on a range superior to Goku, it just means his power is greater than Gokus.

"Super Saiyan 4 Xeno Goku completely, utterly, and easily wrecks Super Saiyan 1 Xeno Goku."

Because he's a superior transformation, obviously meaning he is much much stronger. But that doesnt mean he gets superior range of attack from SSJ 1 Xeno Goku. Range and power are not the same thing.

"I honestly don't know where your mentality of "Higher AP never means higher range" comes from? With some select exceptions, if a feat is done via sheer force, any stronger character always scales since they're the direct superiors of the original character."

Because thats what Attack Potency in general is? AP is the method of unleashing energy and attacks that don't cause destructive damage on the level of it's output like DC does. AP is DC but without the range of it's output, like a planet level attack not leving a planet. Thats AP.

The point of AP in the first place is if a character becomes > another character, they scale despite not having the range to destroy equal to what their level is. Like if I have the range to destroy an entire universe in a single attack, and some random dude comes and beats me in combat or overpowers me with stronger energy, that only means the latter is stronger than me and scales above my power. They have no feats of being able to actually release that amount of energy over the same or greater distance that I can.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If you're gonna ask why am I just finding this out, this episode's like two weeks old and I don't follow the anime. I only found out about this because people are saying that Dia (the guy who's explaining) is a AU version of Red.

 

[Xerkser500]

WUT

Now I have to catch up.