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Goku Vs. Dialga

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Akreious said:
That's the thing, people are saying "Dialga senses Goku and wrecks" with no further reasoning...
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That sounds like bullshit to me.

Case and point, look at Shulk in the Smash Ultimate trailer for proof of this. He saw what would happen, and he wasn't able to stop it. Dialga could see Goku one-shotting him, and still be one-shotted.

I'd like a reasoning or a specific move to say that Dialga would win the fight, not some vague statements that hold almost no meaning.
 
TheArsenal1212 said:
Presence Concealment isn't gonna stop Dialga, plus it works the other way. If Goku senses what Dialga can do, he's gonna power-up or do something which Dialga can then sense and even just see for himself
The second that happens, Dialga uses his time hax which is superior to Goku being able to 1 shot
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Goku aleady starts in SSJ4. No need to power up anymore.
 
Why did you move the fight to dialgas realm it was fine where it was

Now that it's in his realm it's a stomp Goku literally has no win con anymore
 
Akreious said:
That's the thing, people are saying "Dialga senses Goku and wrecks" with no further reasoning even though Goku can literally do anything and Dialga would die on the spot. People are flat out ignoring the fact that any of Goku's attacks WILL finish this match.

Edit: Also no, as OP noted a few posts back, This Match's environment prevents Dialga from being at his peak due to not being within his own Realm.
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And as I already explained, Dialga doesnt need to be in his own realm to be omnipresent. He's omnipreset throughout time, unless im misinterpreting something here.

Also, im fairly certain this Goku lacks the range in dealing with temporal omnipresence if its the case here.
 
TheArsenal1212 said:
Ok
He can timescrew Goku, use roar of time, BFR him with time travel, age him and much more.
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What does timescrew even mean? Elaborate.

Goku resists Temporal BFR, and has Dimensional Travel.

Aging him might do something. How fast is it, and does he lead with it?
 
Kepekley23 said:
He actually didn't. Dialga attacked him and then used Draco Meteor and brawled Palkia and Darkrai for a good two minutes, before they took the battle to the sky again and began to charge Spatial Rend and Roar of Time.
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And as I already explained, Dialga doesnt need to be in his own realm to be omnipresent. He's omnipreset throughout time, unless im misinterpreting something

Dialga only has temporal omnipresence as his true self in his realm
 
Goku resists Temporal BFR, and has Dimensional Travel.

How good is the resistance to Temporal BFR? And dimensional travel is useless if hit with a timeloop.
 
Paul Frank said:
And as I already explained, Dialga doesnt need to be in his own realm to be omnipresent. He's omnipreset throughout time, unless im misinterpreting something
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Dialga only has temporal omnipresence as his true self in his realm
Thats absolutely not the case when even the PIS-filled Jewel of Life movie acknowledges a temporal omnipresent Dialga in general.
 
Also, for what it's worth, Dialga immediately used Roar of Time to destroy that space-time wormhole Arceus generated while sleeping and we already know how threatening the latter is to the former.

Dont know if that helps but thought it was worth a mention.
 
Dialga is omnipresent throughout time in the Pokemon multiverse, right? Which is, as of rn, WAY smaller than the DB Multiverse. If Goku can destroy his own multiverse which is way bigger in SSJ1(the form he beat Demigra in), shouldn't he be able to destroy Dialga's realm? Ofc, it doesn't seem in character but if he senses the ki( the living force inside Dialga so he definitely has it) across all of time, why wouldn't his first go to be to try and destroy everywhere he senses him?
 
^

This.

Dialga being omnipresent in a much smaller scale isn't going to be very helpful. And if Goku thinks Dialga is some Infinite Zamasu-like being that would eventally infest all Timelines and Universes, why wouldn't he just nuke it all?

Canon-Goku was confident he'd be able to destroy Infinite Zamasu if he had a senzu. Xeno Goku scales to someone who was threatening a much larger multiverse. I don't see why he couldn't
 
What is Roar of Time?

Because from the description on Dialga's page, it basically nothing.

  • Roar of Time: Dialga can fire a blue beam from its mouth that is powerful enough to distort time itself.
That's like mentioning Buu's Vice Shout, which was powerful enough to open a hole in Space-Time. How will a blast that's strong enough to distort time effect someone, Goku in this case.
 
The problem im having with that line of logic though is people here are assuming Goku is able to bust the multiverse all throughout time and space. As in, the past, present, and future versions of the multiverse as opposed to just the multiverse in its present point in time.

And even assuming Dialga has life force here, Xeno Goku most definitely doesnt have sensing abilities that go throughout all of time. At least thats what his page is telling me.
 
I'll...go into far more detail shortly. But all I can say is most of you (except Kep) are severely underselling what Dialga can do.

Goku can't sense time, by the way. Nor can he affect an abstract, type 3 or otherwise.
 
From what I gather, it's "Something something, strong enough to 1-shot Goku, something something".

So I'm just treating it as a "I win" button that Dialga doesn't press quickly enough.
 
The real cal howard said:
I'll...go into far more detail shortly. But all I can say is most of you (except Kep) are severely underselling what Dialga can do.
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I don't know what Dialga can do.

Which is why I'm asking for information.
 
Akreious said:
And if Goku thinks Dialga is some Infinite Zamasu-like being that would eventally infest all Timelines and Universes, why wouldn't he just nuke it all?

Canon-Goku was confident he'd be able to destroy Infinite Zamasu if he had a senzu. Xeno Goku scales to someone who was threatening a much larger multiverse. I don't see why he couldn't
Click to expand...
Unless Goku is going to magically be aware of info like this quickly before he can be outhaxed, this is also not very helpful.
 
Xerkser500 said:
Akreious said:
And if Goku thinks Dialga is some Infinite Zamasu-like being that would eventally infest all Timelines and Universes, why wouldn't he just nuke it all?

Canon-Goku was confident he'd be able to destroy Infinite Zamasu if he had a senzu. Xeno Goku scales to someone who was threatening a much larger multiverse. I don't see why he couldn't
Click to expand...
Unless Goku is going to magically be aware of info like this quickly before he can be outhaxed, this is also not very helpful.
Click to expand...
He has info analysis
 
"I'll...go into far more detail shortly. But all I can say is most of you (except Kep) are severely underselling what Dialga can do."

It's not about what Dialga CAN do, it's what he WILL do before Goku just 1-shots. We know Dialga has several options of just DESTROYING Goku in an instant, but he never actively opens with those options on the spot while Goku's trademark "Punch-No-Jutsu" will make Dialga go poof.

"The problem im having with that line of logic though is people here are assuming Goku is able to bust the multiverse all throughout time and space. As in, the past, present, and future versions of the multiverse as opposed to just the multiverse in its present point in time"

... What? That makes absolutely no sense. That's not how timelines work at all.

Goku scales to Demigra who had control over all of Space and Time and later became strong enough to flat out erase the history of the entire world. Much weaker characters are threats to entire Timelines.

If you destroy an entire timeline, that means Past, Present and Future.

If I draw a line on a piece of paper and put 3 points on it (Past, Present and Future) and I just burn the paper in it's entirety, I'm not just destroying it in the present as the entire thing (The entire line) is gone.
 
@Warren.

Dialga is literal time. Has time abilities that will screw over Goku. Goku's attacks get aged to death by Dialga. Goku gets his causality warped by Dialga attacking. Goku gets stuck in a time loop if Dialga thinks about it. Goku gets time stopped by someone much more skilled than Hit with time stop if he so wills. This is the omnipresent Dialga at that.
 
The real cal howard said:
@Warren.
Dialga is literal time. Has time abilities that will screw over Goku. Goku's attacks get aged to death by Dialga. Goku gets his causality warped by Dialga attacking. Goku gets stuck in a time loop if Dialga thinks about it. Goku gets time stopped by someone much more skilled than Hit with time stop if he so wills. This is the omnipresent Dialga at that.
Click to expand...
...

I feel like you're just ignoring what everyone else said?

1) Just being "Literal Time" means nothing. Not sure why that's brought up

2) Okay? I never said he didn't have time abilities that'd defeat Goku?

3) Ki... doesn't age? What? It dissipates I guess, but it doesn't "age". Plus Goku literally glaring hard enough would still kill Dialga so not sure what this point is for.

4) Dialga literally only ever used it against Giratina. You'll have to show that Dialga actively opens with Time Loop against opponents.

5) Dialga needs to show that he actively opens with Timestop before we can take this as an immediate win condition.

Cal, you basically didn't address the reasonings and points as to why Goku wins. It's not that we disagree that Dialga has no options to off Goku, it's that Dialga has no examples where he opens with said hax to off Goku fast enough.
 
The real cal howard said:
It's in the lore released last July. The Trio's physical forms distorting causal law when they attack.
Click to expand...
Does it describe it beyond that? Because just saying they distort casual law is the same as Goku breaking dimensions with his fists and saying that helps if it's not explained more than that.
 
Using that over lore to justify what Dialga leads with is like saying Lucemon would lead with punches and kicks because of this.

(This isn't throwing shade at DM. Reppu, Dragon, Ex, myself, etc. would refute it entirely that Lucey'd lead with that)
 
The real cal howard said:
Using that over lore to justify what Dialga leads with is like saying Lucemon would lead with punches and kicks because of this.
Click to expand...
Unlike Dialga, Lucemon was clearly just playing with them, while Dialga is dealing against someone that can easily beat him up in this case.

Please provide your "stuff", many are waiting for it at this point.
 
The real cal howard said:
Using that over lore to justify what Dialga leads with is like saying Lucemon would lead with punches and kicks because of this.
(This isn't throwing shade at DM. Reppu, Dragon, Ex, myself, etc. would refute it entirely that Lucey'd lead with that)
Click to expand...
Is that Japanese Frieza?

Also, there could be proof of other battles that Lucemon has had where he used a specific hax more consistently, that would debunk the sentiment. The same, apparently, can't be said for Dialga.
 
Akreious said:
... What? That makes absolutely no sense. That's not how timelines work at all.

Goku scales to Demigra who had control over all of Space and Time and later became strong enough to flat out erase the history of the entire world. Much weaker characters are threats to entire Timelines.

If you destroy an entire timeline, that means Past, Present and Future.

If I draw a line on a piece of paper and put 3 points on it (Past, Present and Future) and I just burn the paper in it's entirety, I'm not just destroying it in the present as the entire thing (The entire line) is gone.
Click to expand...
Scales to Demigra as in what? Power or actual ability?

Because if the former, that doesnt mean Goku's range is able to stretch across all time and space. That speaks simply for his AP. Just because you are stronger than a character who has the range to destroy x doesnt mean that your range suddenly becomes objectively as good without having feats for it.

Same thing for threats. Threats to a timeline =/= having the specific range to destroy said timeline.

The one thing I see that could be otherwise is being strong enough to erase history and even then that would be only be the case of damage, not the attacks actually spreading throughout all of that range. But I can be overcomplicating this last part.
 
This entire argument so far has been ,"Does Dialga use his hax before Goku oneshots him?" When fighting two other multiversal beings, his first go to( at least from what I've seen) was Draco Meteor. Goku is more likely to be serious and( since he knows his opponent is omnipresent in this realm) try and destroy the realm. The realm should be smaller than the DB Multiverse, which Goku can destroy in SSJ1. This is SSJ4 Goku. He doesn't even need to transform. he just needs to Majin Vegeta (without the kamikaze aspect) after sensing Dialga. He simply needs to do this before Dialga try and physically hit him due to Dialga distorting casual law.
 
Xerkser500 said:
Because if the former, that doesnt mean Goku's range is able to stretch across all time and space. That speaks simply for his AP. Just because you are stronger than a character who has the range to destroy x doesnt mean that your range suddenly becomes objectively as good without having feats for it.
Click to expand...
Goku range is Multiversal. It's on his profile.
 
The real cal howard said:
Using that over lore to justify what Dialga leads with is like saying Lucemon would lead with punches and kicks because of this.
(This isn't throwing shade at DM. Reppu, Dragon, Ex, myself, etc. would refute it entirely that Lucey'd lead with that)
Click to expand...
I do want to ask tho. Out of actual curiosity, what lore says he does something else?
 
Also again, how good is this Info Analaysis? I never got an answer to that.

Anyway, I also should try and point out that "Dialga never actively using x hax against y opponent" is pretty stupid given literally only 3 opponents in his entire verse would ever even remotely require Dialga to use things beyond a basic arsenal.

And keep in mind, all 3 of these opponents are resistant to what Dialga has and 1 of them can godstomp him and the other 2 before breakfast.
 
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