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God = Source = Presence = Overvoid Merging Profiles

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Hykuu

Hykuu

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Just listing all the things which suggest the title of this thread, to help the other thread

Grant Morrison directly says that The Source/God/Overvoid are one in the same, and each are just different interpretations and views of the same being

During Countdown, The Monitors directly use The Source and The Primal Monitor (Overmonitor) Interchangeably

Cronus describes The Godwave, Or the Source, as "The Power of the Presence!"

There's a singular God which sits on top of every other God and Creation in DC but simply differs in interpretation and view between Pantheon as confirmed by Grant


WM states that he feels The Source beyond the Gates of Heaven, and we know In the same Issue it was stated that God was just chilling there, during Day of Judgement (Asmodel Spectre 5 issue story)

Even the Martians Percieve there to be an Unnameable God Beyond All Gods, which follows into the whole "One God above All Pantheons but different Interpretation" stuff

The Supreme Being/Presence has been known by a million names, in a million cultures, in a million worlds, but when you remove all the masks of identity, it is simply the same, Singular, Ultimate God beyond All.

There is an Ultimate God who created all Other Gods, referring to the Presence, who is without beginning or End, the Alpha and Omega, He is the Voice, The Word, The Supreme Entity who floats in the Void, planning Creation.

There's probably some stuff from Ostrander's run I couldn't be bothered to find or some scan which slipped my mind for now but this'll do.
 
Hykuu, much of these is not direct enough. I agree with the evidence, but there is a growing group of Morrison fanboys on other forums that deny everything you posted.

Are you certain this is everything?
 
No, I am not, the other stuff is gonna be a bit hard to find but I think this would be enough

Also, some morrison fanboys really shouldn't affect this wiki, but if this is for your own personal benefit, then I'd suggest ignoring them
 
The Monitor being referred to as the Over-Monitor.
Overmon


The Overvoid is a different entity from the Monitor.
Justice-League-22-7
 
It's obviously a name given to it by fans Pre-Snyder due to "Overvoid"
 
Ultima and I both agree that The Source, The Presence and The Monitor-Mind should be tied into a single profile divided into three keys. We do disagree with the OP's assement that all levels are equal to one another.
 
I'm in agreement with this and thanks for making this thread. I didn't see it at first.

However, instead of deleting the separate profiles, we should just put a disambiguation note at the very top, telling readers that those characters are just one in three substances/persons that form God.
 
I'm not sure whether it's High 1-A or 0, though. It's very much philosophically possible for each "facet' of God to be different in strength/power, but if we go by DeMatteis's take, they're all equal in strength and just manifest in different forms, pretty much. Not only that, Morrison blatantly states that the true forms of God and the Source are on the same-level of existence as the High 1-A Monitor-Mind.
 
The idea seems to be that there is an infinite, unmanifest, undefined and abstract "God" who manifests itself through several forms in varying degrees of consciousness.

I'd wager that the Presence we see in Luicifer / Spectre / etc comics is the least impressive of the the three major ones, as it is a conscious being with a physical form and defined limits, while the abstract Source of all things and the unmanifest unconscious Overvoid are quite beyond it.
 
I don't think keys are necessary. Morrison states that the true forms/spirits of Presence and the Source both exist in the same conceptless well that the Overvoid resides on. We'd just need to link God's profile to those 3 and explain they're aspects/facets of "Him".
 
Kepekley23 said:
I don't think keys are necessary. Morrison states that the true forms/spirits of Presence and the Source both exist in the same conceptless well that the Overvoid resides on. We'd just need to link God's profile to those 3 and explain they're aspects/facets of "Him".
Click to expand...
Yes. And then we'd give keys to those different facets. The Presence as he is seen in Lucifer is vastly inferior to the Source and the Overvoid.
 
I think that The Presence as the physical, defined being who was shaped by the human unconscious can be reconciled with DeMatteis' interpretation by saying that the latter is a part of the Unmanifest "God" that is more closely embodied by the Source and the Overvoid, as everything turns out to be one and the same at this level of existence. In which case, the more abstract renditions of the Presence would be in God's profile.

Anyways, I believe the entity itself can be High 1-A anyways, regardless if DC has infinite 1-A Hierarchies or not, given how the Monitor-Mind is literally just nondual, unmanifest Perfection that completely lacks definition even in relation to 1-A realms like Limbo, the Monitor Sphere, the Source Wall and the Sixth Dimension, all of which transcend each other.
 
I still think we should seperate the Presence into keys. Make a seperate key for the Lucifer/Mike Carey's Presence. The Presence in Lucifer is just another god created by dreams. He's the current supreme being because more people believe that he is. But he's just like the other gods in sandman. Berim even said that there has been other creators before the Presence and there will be far more worthy creators after he is gone. That plus there are tons of beings not created by The Presence but created by other Makers or are older than even the Presence itself (Cestis, Berim, the silk man etc). He's definitely not part of this Unmanifest God or the Overvoid considering that the void is outside of his influence.

It seems even DC is beginning to cut off Mike Carey's Lucifer from the rest of DC by ignoring his run. DC basically ignores everything in Mike Carey's Lucifer. Elaine? Ignored, Michaels death? Nothing, Silver City getting destroyed? Nothing.

They further made this seperation official by saying that the events of Lucifer didnt happen, or that theyre not canon to Sandman Universe (Making it non canon to DC because DC now considers Sandman Universe as the only/main canon Sandman material), making the Lucifer (2018)/the Sandman Universe storyline as the canon one.

Lucifer basically got isolated. Theres two Lucifer series now and it seems that DC chose to make the 2018 one canon because both cant be canon.

Sandman is canon to Lucifer, but with the Sandman Universe it seems that Mike Carey's/Holly Black's isnt canon to Sandman.

Also, Mike Careys Presence is dead right now

I really dont think you can combine all of these interpretation without ignoring many glaring inconsistencies.
 
I am merging Grant's God, not Carey's, there is a difference, since he views all 3 as the same entity.
 
I agree with Sandman31 and Matthew that separate keys are necessary, and that The Presence should be a 1-A key.
 
@Hykuu Not really arguing with you on that, I have talked to PrinceOftheMorning regarding this when we were working on the Monitor revisions. I was just giving my 2 cents on how I think the Presence profile should be revised. Which is we should seperate the Mike Carey Presence
 
Is it wrong to interpret that the Presence in the Silver City (Yahweh) is just a Human Religion Avatar of the True Void Presence? That's also not wrong.

Spectre implied that the Judeo-Christian view of the Presence is just one aspect of the True God.
 
You don't even need to separate their profiles.

In fact, the "Other Makers" being referred to in Lucifer, they too could be just aspects of the Source/Presence anyway. Because we know those other creations are forged by Super-Celestials just like Perpetua.

So Lilith and Silk Man were just referring to other aspects of the Presence who are better and more worthy than his Local Yahweh aspect, represented in other Creations.

Why?

Because those other creations can be interpreted that they are created by beings like Perpetua whose source of power is still the Source who is the Presence anyway.

When you Composite-DC's Cosmology, this stuff is all easily explainable.
 
Thats too much headcanon with no evidence to back it up.

Like its nowhere stated or even implied those other Makers are aspects of Yahweh or anything like that. Nowhere it is implied that theres "local Yahweh" international Yahweh or whatever. In fact, Yahweh's influence doesnt reach the Void, thats why he went there in the first place, because he wants to experience uncertainty.

Also, no, you do know that Super Celestials werent even a thing back then right.

Youre making this much more complicated that it really is. You dont need to perform mental gymnastics when its something really straigth forward.
 
What are you talking about? Literally all your Vertigo God-Tier profiles are mixing Composite-DC Cosmology. Carey/Snyder/Morrison lore. Why should it be different for the Presence? To make sure that Dream > Presence?

You are scaling Lucifer to the 6th, 5th, Nil and Limbo, which are directly stated to be creations of something, that is a creation of another aspect of the Presence allied to the Void. That, by the way, predates all concepts including even Dreams.

Whatever those other makers are, do you think they're stronger than the True Presence outside the Void? Do you think they're stronger than the Super-Celestials who are now the ones, actually creating those other creations? Or is this just the Yahweh-Avatar in Creation?

Why is the Presence an exception? If you don't like Compositing lore, you should edit all your Vertigo profiles back and never ever, ever, ever scale Vertigo to current DC again. This literally makes no sense to me. There is no middle ground Sandman.

I even saw Matt trying to scale Lucifer to the Super-Celestials. (Which I 100% agree with) but what I'm doing is consistent with what you guys did.
 
Yeah Carey's Yahweh isn't as powerful as the Source / Overvoid but he's still crazy strong and there ARE parallels between the Vertigo God and DC. 90s was full of Angel / Silver City stuff from JLA, Spectre, Supergirl, etc just out the top of my head. And it only got more closely ties as time went on.

I still hold hope that Carey's Lucifer run will turn out to not be ignored, because the series opens in media res and as of right now we STILL don't know what the frick happened to leave Lucifer in his situation.
 
We can only hope but Dan Watters and Neil Gaiman said that since its "The Sandman Universe" theyre going to ignore all the series/comics (Lucifer, The Dreaming, Books of Magic etc) that is not Sandman. Which sucks, I really like Lucifer, I actually like it more than Sandman
 
"To make sure that Dream>Presence?"

Lol, nice accusation there bud. If you actually read all my comments about this subject then youll see that I keep repeating that Presence>>Dream, because even the Endless are shaped by dreams

"Why is the Presence an exception?"

Because the way the writers used the Presence. They dont treat it as a character. More like a concept. Whenever they need to use God, they dont care about previous interpretations. The Carey Lucifer isnt even canon to DC anymore, which is why the page needs to split into different keys. And Careys Lucifer run has been completely ignored by DC

What youre suggesting is basically lets throw all these different versions together in this single profile. Then just make shit up to fill in all the inconsistencies

"What are you talking about? Literally all your Vertigo God-Tier profiles are mixing Composite-DC Cosmology"

Because those Vertigo profiles are canon to DC? While Careys Presence has literally been ignored and was even thrown out of the canon because of The Sandman Universe? Whats hard to understand about that? Like why would you scale Careys/Holly Blacks (Already dead) Presence to recent cosmology changes where their version of the Presence are not even canon anymore?
 
The Sandman basically split off into two directions after the Sandman Universe.

The 1st branch is the old dc/vertigo comics like Mike Careys Lucifer, Books of Magic, Hellblazer etc. (The Books of Magic 4 part mini series is still canon. The 75 issue is not)

The second is the Sandman Universe line which rebooted the 1st branch. And is currently the canon right now
 
Sandman31 said:
We can only hope but Dan Watters and Neil Gaiman said that since its "The Sandman Universe" theyre going to ignore all the series/comics (Lucifer, The Dreaming, Books of Magic etc) that is not Sandman. Which sucks, I really like Lucifer, I actually like it more than Sandma
Click to expand...
The Dreaming and Books of Magic weren't ignored. The only thing that appears to have definitely been ignored is the Holly Black Lucifer run.

But even still, the current Lucifer run is so ******* vague and self-contained that it's hard to make any legitimate conclusions from it.
 
Nrama: Because there's already been so many stories about Tim Hunter, how are you approaching this project? We've seen a hint of where he is now, but would you call it a reboot with a sort of new version of Tim, or are you kind of picking up his story somehow?

Howard: It's not a full reboot. There are things from Neil's previous run on the story that we're taking as having happened, but we've also brought the story up into the current time and we're picking things up from there. So there are definitely elements that readers who are familiar with Tim and the Books of Magic will recognize, but it's also meant to be a good jumping-on point for new readers as well.

Its a reboot like Lucifer. They started from Neil's Book of Magic but ignored the 75 issue series written by the other writers.
 
https://ew.com/books/2018/03/01/neil-gaiman-sandman-universe-comics/

Neil Gaiman:Okay, this is that thing." We were looking at rebooting Books of Magic, so let's go talk to Kat. She has the touch, she understands the magic. These are people who are really good and smart, and, more to the point, they understand the area that we have cordoned off. It's actually exactly like casting; you're trying to cast the writer. With Lucifer, Mike Carey and Holly Black left huge shoes to fill. But Dan is smart and deep, and he gets it. He's up to the challenge of "Okay, can you recreate this thing?"

Dan Watters: "Because this is The Sandman Universe, we wanted to go back to The Sandma and the roots of the character," Watters tells EW. "Lucifer has had these amazing long runs by Mike Carey and Holly Black, and it's got this hugely successful TV show, so it's trying to balance a version of him that will appeal to everyone who loves this character, but also doesn't require you to have read a bunch of books or three seasons of a TV show. We were very much looking back to Sandman and using that as our primary source material."

Neil Gaiman:...There's always stuff I created in the Vertigo world, that spun off and went out into the world and did really well. But the natural life cycle of these things is it came, it went away. Let's bring it all back, let's have fun with it.

Ignores/rebooted both Mike Carey and Holly Blacks run. Sandman Universe only uses the original Sandman and Gaiman stories as its source material.
 
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