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DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo (Part 2 of 2)

Protector_Hunk said:
I don't understand,cosmology High 1-A because House Of Mystery High 1-A,but House Of Mystery>heaven and hell,why heaven,silver city and hell High 1-A?
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Because I made a statement earlier that all realms are equal to each other, at the very least. So Dreaming contains the House of Mystery and sits nearly equal to the other realms.

Yes, the power of dreams and stories can change the entirety of Creation which includes the afterlives, but the point is the realms are somewhat interconnected and may be equal. While Faerie doesn't fully scale to Hell, it doesn't downscale Faerie but upscales Hell. Same with the City of Stars being on the same level of existence as the Dreaming, I wouldn't see why something like Heaven and Hell is any lesser considering the ruler of Hell is stated to be stronger than the ruler of the Dreaming.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Because I made a statement earlier that all realms are equal to each other, at the very least. So Dreaming contains the House of Mystery and sits nearly equal to the other realms.

Yes, the power of dreams and stories can change the entirety of Creation which includes the afterlives, but the point is the realms are somewhat interconnected and may be equal. While Faerie doesn't fully scale to Hell, it doesn't downscale Faerie but upscales Hell. Same with the City of Stars being on the same level of existence as the Dreaming, I wouldn't see why something like Heaven and Hell is any lesser considering the ruler of Hell is stated to be stronger than the ruler of the Dreaming.
Click to expand...
Ee,your own argument says,House Of Mystery is Beyond hell and heaven.
 
GrandSho said:
It should be "before" not "beyond"
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IMG_20241015_192029.jpg
 
Protector_Hunk said:
I don't understand,cosmology High 1-A because House Of Mystery High 1-A,but House Of Mystery>heaven and hell,why heaven,silver city and hell High 1-A?
Click to expand...
At these levels, it is not right to think of a linear chronology for both characters and lands. For example, we're looking for the connection between Dan's Lucifer and Mike's, but that's not necessary. So these are not fixed things. The House nexus of realities and creates entire worlds through its narrative model.
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Because I made a statement earlier that all realms are equal to each other, at the very least. So Dreaming contains the House of Mystery and sits nearly equal to the other realms.

Yes, the power of dreams and stories can change the entirety of Creation which includes the afterlives, but the point is the realms are somewhat interconnected and may be equal. While Faerie doesn't fully scale to Hell, it doesn't downscale Faerie but upscales Hell. Same with the City of Stars being on the same level of existence as the Dreaming, I wouldn't see why something like Heaven and Hell is any lesser considering the ruler of Hell is stated to be stronger than the ruler of the Dreaming.
Click to expand...
It is true that such far realms exist, at least at this level. But the superiority of one world over another depends very little on the person who created it. Because as we know, the person who created Faerie is Lucifer. (Not fairies)
GrandSho said:
It should be "before" not "beyond"
Click to expand...
The word "before" is used here. But it is unclear whether even this refers to other forms of heaven and hell. But one way or another, the House's mission operates within the borders of Dream's domain but spans entire worlds.
 
LazyMortician said:
At these levels, it is not right to think of a linear chronology for both characters and lands. For example, we're looking for the connection between Dan's Lucifer and Mike's, but that's not necessary. So these are not fixed things. The House nexus of realities and creates entire worlds through its narrative model.

It is true that such far realms exist, at least at this level. But the superiority of one world over another depends very little on the person who created it. Because as we know, the person who created Faerie is Lucifer. (Not fairies)

The word "before" is used here. But it is unclear whether even this refers to other forms of heaven and hell. But one way or another, the House's mission operates within the borders of Dream's domain but spans entire worlds.
Click to expand...
Oky
 
GrandSho said:
The actual comic only says before.
Click to expand...
It's from the part where infinitesimal dung contains Universes. I used that as context to either mean worlds or Creation as a whole. However, beyond this case was just saying it was outside of those realms, but a position could be argued that it's entirely superior to those realms.
 
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On a glance the Vertigo side looks fine. I would say for the Heaven section of DeMatteis Cosmology to include the scan from issue 1 of his Spectre run as well. Where it's stated that heaven is just a shadow of a shadow of the true Heaven. Mostly for support to the fact that Heaven is layered. People tend to ignore or overlook that part which is why they misunderstand the latter one where it's referred to as a deeper, truer dream with deeper ones beyond it. All of which lead to the Divine Dreamer, the Presence.

Side note, what happened with the last thread? Pretty sure Divine Presence and Pralaya were accepted as 0 and High 1-A+. I just looked and the staff count is 5 in favor of the rating. Yet, the changes weren't applied.
 
Asterotheology said:
On a glance the Vertigo side looks fine. I would say for the Heaven section of DeMatteis Cosmology to include the scan from issue 1 of his Spectre run as well. Where it's stated that heaven is just a shadow of a shadow of the true Heaven. Mostly for support to the fact that Heaven is layered. People tend to ignore or overlook that part which is why they misunderstand the latter one where it's referred to as a deeper, truer dream with deeper ones beyond it. All of which lead to the Divine Dreamer, the Presence.
Click to expand...
Yeah, those are excellent points.
Asterotheology said:
Side note, what happened with the last thread? Pretty sure Divine Presence and Pralaya were accepted as 0 and High 1-A+. I just looked and the staff count is 5 in favor of the rating. Yet, the changes weren't applied.
Click to expand...
Dunno, waiting for Ant to give me permission for the changes.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Just a quick request. Firestorm agreed with the previous thread for both parts. That means five people(including Ultima) agreed to Pralaya being High 1-A+ and Divine Presence as 0 for DeMatteis. I didn't add these two because of that, so can I change those two sections?
Click to expand...
Which staff members have agreed with it? I would prefer evaluations from @Elizio33 as an extra safety, given his expertise regarding this topic and the extremely high tiers. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Which staff members have agreed with it? I would prefer evaluations from @Elizio33 as an extra safety, given his expertise regarding this topic and the extremely high tiers. 🙏
Click to expand...
Ultima:
Anyhow. For DeMatteis: Yeah, the Divine Presence is obviously Tier 0. Pralaya's true form being High 1-A+ is fine
Click to expand...
Qawsedf234:
Can you have a High 1-A+ and a Tier 0 in the same franchise? Other than that point everything looks straightforward.
Click to expand...
Antvasima:
Ultima's evaluation above seems fine to me. 🙏
Click to expand...
Maverick_Zero_X:
Reading everything over I agree with most of the proposals for the J.M. DeMatteis section, especially the Pralaya and the Divine Presence upgrades.
Click to expand...
Firestorm808:
Both seem okay.
Click to expand...

I can't really recall any expert on 1-A and higher other than Ultima, Agnaa, DontTalk, and I. Ultima 0 revision is perfectly reflected by God from DeMatteis, he literally used it as an example of a 0 and any relation to it as High 1-A+ to what it encompasses or what it can produce, Pralaya is exactly that.
 
Hmm. I am not sure if Maverick and I are sufficiently reliable for this particular topic, so I would prefer to wait a bit for further staff confirmations as extra safety. 🙏

I have asked for further help via our private DC Comics scaling discussion thread.
 
Ultima and I talk about this theory which was brought up about the Throne of God. How it is not in Creation, but parts of it extrude within Creation. Ultima thinks the place where Elaine was taken to was a full Throne.

However, I think I have a much better theory which fits with the Void section being connected to Yahweh’s true shape. So, my theory comes a lot from Dante’s stories. See Mike Carey clearly drew inspiration from the guy to the point some of the literal storylines in Lucifer are named after his poems: Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradiso. So, we know that the Throne room is in the highest layer of Heaven called Primum Mobile, which is the ninth celestial sphere in Dante’s story Cosmology. Its interconnected to something else as the finality before reaching true Heaven in eternal bliss with God called the Empyrean.

Think about Primum Mobile means the center where there are no stars, planets, etc.…which are metaphors for Dante's feeble mind trying to comprehend the metaphor for each celestial sphere. It is referred to as the mind and thoughts of God and how his love pushes Creation into motion where Primum Mobile is the highest sphere. Well, in Lucifer it is the “womb of Creation” is said thing is true then it all makes sense. See when Elaine sat on the Throne, we know that was just a visual representation of what Heaven really is in this case the Throne supports the Silver City and all of its buildings since destroying the Throne means destroying the Silver City. In a reality where Yahweh summoned Elaine outside Creation ie seeing it as just an orb then that kind of makes sense to compare it to the Empyrean. Think about it, Although each celestial sphere is a layer of Heaven, there are just more so metaphors and true Heaven itself that simultaneously exists contains all of it, and is timeless. The Void in Lucifer is “timeless.”

To summarize:
  • The Primum Mobile contains the Throne which is only a finite aspect of the one outside Creation.
  • The Void and Empyrean are both timeless and outside all the celestial sphere or Creation.
  • Yahweh determines all things with his will. Even Lucifer escaping the Void did not deter that logic. Yahweh only takes aspects within Creation and when interacting with his Creation.
  • Like Dante, Elaine cannot perceive the trueness of God without her mind going crazy.
  • The reality Elaine was summoned in was nothing until she moved for it to take shape. Yahweh has melded darkness for light to come as the Void was complete darkness as described by Noema.
  • Finally, even Heaven itself exists in the mind of God. If we say this for the Empyrean, which is equalized to the realm outside Creation which is only the Void then it is true that the Void is simply in the mind of God and his thought being Creation itself.
Does anyone like this theory?
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Ultima and I talk about this theory which was brought up about the Throne of God. How it is not in Creation, but parts of it extrude within Creation. Ultima thinks the place where Elaine was taken to was a full Throne.

However, I think I have a much better theory which fits with the Void section being connected to Yahweh’s true shape. So, my theory comes a lot from Dante’s stories. See Mike Carey clearly drew inspiration from the guy to the point some of the literal storylines in Lucifer are named after his poems: Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradiso. So, we know that the Throne room is in the highest layer of Heaven called Primum Mobile, which is the ninth celestial sphere in Dante’s story Cosmology. Its interconnected to something else as the finality before reaching true Heaven in eternal bliss with God called the Empyrean.

Think about Primum Mobile means the center where there are no stars, planets, etc.…which are metaphors for Dante's feeble mind trying to comprehend the metaphor for each celestial sphere. It is referred to as the mind and thoughts of God and how his love pushes Creation into motion where Primum Mobile is the highest sphere. Well, in Lucifer it is the “womb of Creation” is said thing is true then it all makes sense. See when Elaine sat on the Throne, we know that was just a visual representation of what Heaven really is in this case the Throne supports the Silver City and all of its buildings since destroying the Throne means destroying the Silver City. In a reality where Yahweh summoned Elaine outside Creation ie seeing it as just an orb then that kind of makes sense to compare it to the Empyrean. Think about it, Although each celestial sphere is a layer of Heaven, there are just more so metaphors and true Heaven itself that simultaneously exists contains all of it, and is timeless. The Void in Lucifer is “timeless.”

To summarize:
  • The Primum Mobile contains the Throne which is only a finite aspect of the one outside Creation.
  • The Void and Empyrean are both timeless and outside all the celestial sphere or Creation.
  • Yahweh determines all things with his will. Even Lucifer escaping the Void did not deter that logic. Yahweh only takes aspects within Creation and when interacting with his Creation.
  • Like Dante, Elaine cannot perceive the trueness of God without her mind going crazy.
  • The reality Elaine was summoned in was nothing until she moved for it to take shape. Yahweh has melded darkness for light to come as the Void was complete darkness as described by Noema.
  • Finally, even Heaven itself exists in the mind of God. If we say this for the Empyrean, which is equalized to the realm outside Creation which is only the Void then it is true that the Void is simply in the mind of God and his thought being Creation itself.
Does anyone like this theory?
Click to expand...
That’s a really fascinating theory you’ve put forward, and it definitely got me thinking about some important moments in Lucifer that might back up your ideas. There are several key scenes in the comics that align with the themes you mentioned, especially about the Throne of God, the Void, and Yahweh’s true nature existing outside Creation. I’m going to walk through some references that really resonate with what you're saying:

1. Elaine’s Experience on the Throne (Lucifer #70–75)
In Lucifer #70–75, after Yahweh departs from Creation, Elaine Belloc takes over the Throne. This is a pivotal moment because it’s made clear that the Throne isn’t just a physical seat—it supports the entirety of the Silver City. The implication is that the City, and by extension Creation itself, would crumble without someone to occupy the Throne. What’s really interesting here is that Elaine’s experience while sitting on the Throne is described in such a way that she can’t fully comprehend the magnitude of its power. This suggests that the Throne isn’t Yahweh in his entirety—it’s just a limited aspect of his will within Creation. This fits well with your theory that the Throne is only a finite part of Yahweh’s true essence, which lies beyond the boundaries of Creation.


2. Yahweh’s Departure and the Void (Lucifer #50 and #75)
When Yahweh leaves Creation in Lucifer #50, the comics introduce the concept of the Void—this timeless, formless realm that exists beyond the limits of Creation. In Lucifer #75, after Yahweh’s departure, we see Elaine and Lucifer exploring this new reality, and the Void remains a constant presence. The fact that the Void doesn’t just vanish or fall apart without Yahweh being physically present suggests that it’s still under his influence, or at least still part of his design. The Void being timeless and formless ties directly into your comparison with Dante’s Empyrean—a space outside all physical existence, outside time and space, which aligns with how the Void is portrayed in the comics.


3. Lucifer’s Escape from the Void (Lucifer #62)
Another key moment is Lucifer’s escape from the Void in Lucifer #62. The Void is described as being completely outside time and space—essentially outside Creation itself. Even though Lucifer is one of the most powerful beings in existence, escaping the Void still doesn’t allow him to break free from Yahweh’s will entirely. This reinforces the idea that, while the Void exists outside Creation, it’s still connected to Yahweh’s influence. In Dante’s cosmology, the Empyrean lies beyond the Primum Mobile, the final celestial sphere before reaching true Heaven, and it seems like the Void in Lucifer serves a similar role—it's the space beyond, but still within the grasp of Yahweh’s omnipotence.


4. Yahweh’s Omnipotence and the Nature of Creation (Lucifer #75)
There’s also a powerful moment in Lucifer #75 where it’s made clear that all of Creation, including Heaven, Hell, and the Silver City, is part of Yahweh’s will. Even after Yahweh has left, Creation continues to exist, implying that it was all still held together by his mind or his will. This directly ties into the idea that Creation—everything from the celestial spheres to the Void—exists within Yahweh’s thought. It’s a concept that Dante also plays with in Paradiso, where even the highest spheres of Heaven are just a reflection of God’s infinite mind. Elaine, even after ascending to the Throne, struggles to fully comprehend the enormity of Yahweh’s power, which echoes the idea from Dante that no one, not even the most enlightened souls, can fully grasp the nature of God.


5. The Womb of Creation (Lucifer #50)
In Lucifer #50, Michael describes the Silver City as being connected to the “Womb of Creation.” This isn’t a literal place, but more of a metaphorical space tied to Yahweh’s creative will. It’s similar to the concept of the Primum Mobile in Dante’s cosmology, where the highest sphere of Heaven is what moves and shapes the rest of the cosmos. The Throne in Lucifer could be seen in a similar light—an expression of Yahweh’s will that sustains and shapes Creation, but isn’t the full extent of his being. The Womb of Creation seems to suggest that Yahweh’s power is not limited to what’s within Creation but also extends beyond it, just as the Primum Mobile in Dante’s work is connected to a greater realm beyond.


6. Yahweh’s Transcendence (Lucifer #63 and #75)
Throughout Lucifer, especially in Lucifer #63, it’s emphasized that Yahweh transcends all of Creation. Lucifer himself, despite his immense power, acknowledges that Yahweh is far beyond anything he or the other angels can fully understand. This fits perfectly with your point about Yahweh’s true form existing outside Creation—like Dante’s Empyrean, which is beyond all celestial spheres and incomprehensible to the human mind. Even after leaving Creation, Yahweh’s presence and will still shape everything that happens, reinforcing the idea that he exists on a level far above the beings and realms within Creation.



So, yeah, the comics definitely support your theory in a lot of ways. The idea that the Throne is just a finite representation of Yahweh’s will, while the Void and the realm beyond it (similar to Dante’s Empyrean) represent something more transcendent, seems to tie in with the metaphysical concepts presented throughout Lucifer. Your theory really does a great job of connecting these dots and expanding
on what the comics present.
 
Last edited:
Trigger said:
That’s a really fascinating theory you’ve put forward, and it definitely got me thinking about some important moments in Lucifer that might back up your ideas. There are several key scenes in the comics that align with the themes you mentioned, especially about the Throne of God, the Void, and Yahweh’s true nature existing outside Creation. I’m going to walk through some references that really resonate with what you're saying:

1. Elaine’s Experience on the Throne (Lucifer #70–75)
In Lucifer #70–75, after Yahweh departs from Creation, Elaine Belloc takes over the Throne. This is a pivotal moment because it’s made clear that the Throne isn’t just a physical seat—it supports the entirety of the Silver City. The implication is that the City, and by extension Creation itself, would crumble without someone to occupy the Throne. What’s really interesting here is that Elaine’s experience while sitting on the Throne is described in such a way that she can’t fully comprehend the magnitude of its power. This suggests that the Throne isn’t Yahweh in his entirety—it’s just a limited aspect of his will within Creation. This fits well with your theory that the Throne is only a finite part of Yahweh’s true essence, which lies beyond the boundaries of Creation.


2. Yahweh’s Departure and the Void (Lucifer #50 and #75)
When Yahweh leaves Creation in Lucifer #50, the comics introduce the concept of the Void—this timeless, formless realm that exists beyond the limits of Creation. In Lucifer #75, after Yahweh’s departure, we see Elaine and Lucifer exploring this new reality, and the Void remains a constant presence. The fact that the Void doesn’t just vanish or fall apart without Yahweh being physically present suggests that it’s still under his influence, or at least still part of his design. The Void being timeless and formless ties directly into your comparison with Dante’s Empyrean—a space outside all physical existence, outside time and space, which aligns with how the Void is portrayed in the comics.


3. Lucifer’s Escape from the Void (Lucifer #62)
Another key moment is Lucifer’s escape from the Void in Lucifer #62. The Void is described as being completely outside time and space—essentially outside Creation itself. Even though Lucifer is one of the most powerful beings in existence, escaping the Void still doesn’t allow him to break free from Yahweh’s will entirely. This reinforces the idea that, while the Void exists outside Creation, it’s still connected to Yahweh’s influence. In Dante’s cosmology, the Empyrean lies beyond the Primum Mobile, the final celestial sphere before reaching true Heaven, and it seems like the Void in Lucifer serves a similar role—it's the space beyond, but still within the grasp of Yahweh’s omnipotence.


4. Yahweh’s Omnipotence and the Nature of Creation (Lucifer #75)
There’s also a powerful moment in Lucifer #75 where it’s made clear that all of Creation, including Heaven, Hell, and the Silver City, is part of Yahweh’s will. Even after Yahweh has left, Creation continues to exist, implying that it was all still held together by his mind or his will. This directly ties into the idea that Creation—everything from the celestial spheres to the Void—exists within Yahweh’s thought. It’s a concept that Dante also plays with in Paradiso, where even the highest spheres of Heaven are just a reflection of God’s infinite mind. Elaine, even after ascending to the Throne, struggles to fully comprehend the enormity of Yahweh’s power, which echoes the idea from Dante that no one, not even the most enlightened souls, can fully grasp the nature of God.


5. The Womb of Creation (Lucifer #50)
In Lucifer #50, Michael describes the Silver City as being connected to the “Womb of Creation.” This isn’t a literal place, but more of a metaphorical space tied to Yahweh’s creative will. It’s similar to the concept of the Primum Mobile in Dante’s cosmology, where the highest sphere of Heaven is what moves and shapes the rest of the cosmos. The Throne in Lucifer could be seen in a similar light—an expression of Yahweh’s will that sustains and shapes Creation, but isn’t the full extent of his being. The Womb of Creation seems to suggest that Yahweh’s power is not limited to what’s within Creation but also extends beyond it, just as the Primum Mobile in Dante’s work is connected to a greater realm beyond.


6. Yahweh’s Transcendence (Lucifer #63 and #75)
Throughout Lucifer, especially in Lucifer #63, it’s emphasized that Yahweh transcends all of Creation. Lucifer himself, despite his immense power, acknowledges that Yahweh is far beyond anything he or the other angels can fully understand. This fits perfectly with your point about Yahweh’s true form existing outside Creation—like Dante’s Empyrean, which is beyond all celestial spheres and incomprehensible to the human mind. Even after leaving Creation, Yahweh’s presence and will still shape everything that happens, reinforcing the idea that he exists on a level far above the beings and realms within Creation.



So, yeah, the comics definitely support your theory in a lot of ways. The idea that the Throne is just a finite representation of Yahweh’s will, while the Void and the realm beyond it (similar to Dante’s Empyrean) represent something more transcendent, seems to tie in with the metaphysical concepts presented throughout Lucifer. Your theory really does a great job of connecting these dots and expanding
on what the comics present.
Click to expand...
W
 
Trigger said:
3. Lucifer’s Escape from the Void (Lucifer #62)
Another key moment is Lucifer’s escape from the Void in Lucifer #62. The Void is described as being completely outside time and space—essentially outside Creation itself. Even though Lucifer is one of the most powerful beings in existence, escaping the Void still doesn’t allow him to break free from Yahweh’s will entirely. This reinforces the idea that, while the Void exists outside Creation, it’s still connected to Yahweh’s influence. In Dante’s cosmology, the Empyrean lies beyond the Primum Mobile, the final celestial sphere before reaching true Heaven, and it seems like the Void in Lucifer serves a similar role—it's the space beyond, but still within the grasp of Yahweh’s omnipotence.
Click to expand...
I wanna add something to this because it makes sense in a way. Yahweh clearly defined everything in Creation as he is every substance. When he left it left a sort of “void” that would return everything back into nothing had no one sat on the Throne. This kind of has this effect where Creation sort of follows Yahweh's footing in the sense that all will be Void where Yahweh is.

Kind of how the small pocket reality where Sandalphon kept Michael outside Creation was held only by Michael’s power the same power that can meld the Void into creating a Creation because it's the very power of “God.” Not to mention Elaine saw the Void as this white expanse of space that formed when she walked through it and was outside Creation which connects with the fact that both the Throne and Void are outside Creation.

Finally, Lucifer deters there are rules for everything including the Void as “everything returns to nothing.” This kind of makes sense with the Council since one of the member's names is translated to “Glory of the Divine Presence” the same immanence that existed before the creation of the Universe when God divided the top and bottom firmaments. It's quite clear when Yahweh appeared in Lucifer comics that he was something more, something greater than what we truly perceive, and the final issue sealed that notion for me.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
I wanna add something to this because it makes sense in a way. Yahweh clearly defined everything in Creation as he is every substance. When he left it left a sort of “void” that would return everything back into nothing had no one sat on the Throne. This kind of has this effect where Creation sort of follows Yahweh's footing in the sense that all will be Void where Yahweh is.

Kind of how the small pocket reality where Sandalphon kept Michael outside Creation was held only by Michael’s power the same power that can meld the Void into creating a Creation because it's the very power of “God.” Not to mention Elaine saw the Void as this white expanse of space that formed when she walked through it and was outside Creation which connects with the fact that both the Throne and Void are outside Creation.

Finally, Lucifer deters there are rules for everything including the Void as “everything returns to nothing.” This kind of makes sense with the Council since one of the member's names is translated to “Glory of the Divine Presence” the same immanence that existed before the creation of the Universe when God divided the top and bottom firmaments. It's quite clear when Yahweh appeared in Lucifer comics that he was something more, something greater than what we truly perceive, and the final issue sealed that notion for me.
Click to expand...
I really like how this builds on the previous points, and it makes a lot of sense when you think about Yahweh’s nature in the comics. Yahweh is the substance of everything, and when he left Creation, it created a "void"—a sort of vacuum that would return everything to nothing if the Throne wasn’t occupied. It’s like Creation itself follows Yahweh's lead, in the sense that wherever Yahweh’s influence is absent, all that remains is the Void.

In Lucifer #50, we see how Yahweh’s departure leaves behind this Void, and without someone like Elaine stepping in, everything would collapse back into that nothingness. It’s interesting that this parallels Sandalphon’s pocket reality in Lucifer #57–58. There, we see Michael, whose power is essentially the power of Yahweh, holding together a reality outside Creation. Michael’s ability to "meld" the Void into a new Creation, as seen in Lucifer #62, really underscores this idea that the Void is like raw material that can only be shaped by divine power.

Elaine’s perception of the Void as a white expanse of space in Lucifer #70–75 further supports this. When she moves through the Void, it forms around her, which reinforces the concept that the Void isn’t just emptiness—it’s a canvas that responds to the will of beings with godlike power, like Yahweh, Michael, and Elaine. The fact that both the Void and the Throne are outside Creation makes them interconnected in a really profound way.

As you mentioned, Lucifer himself acknowledges that "everything returns to nothing," which he says in Lucifer #62. This aligns with the idea that the Void is the primal state of existence—everything eventually decays and returns to it unless maintained by divine will. I also think your point about the Council is interesting, particularly the member whose name translates to “Glory of the Divine Presence.” This could be a reference to the Shekhinah—the manifestation of God's presence on Earth—symbolizing Yahweh’s immanence and how his departure left this "void" behind.

Finally, Yahweh’s appearance in Lucifer #75, where he’s shown as something far greater and more transcendent than anyone can perceive, really seals this idea. Throughout the series, there’s this recurring theme that Yahweh isn’t just a part of Creation—he's beyond it, and his will defines all things, even the Void.

To sum it up, Yahweh leaving Creation essentially sets the stage for everything to return to nothingness, unless someone with godly power (like Elaine or Michael) steps in to reshape the Void. Creation, the Void, and the Throne are all extensions of Yahweh’s power and will, which are beyond the comprehension of the other characters, even Lucifer. It’s this idea of Yahweh as both immanent in Creation and yet transcendent, existing beyond it, that really drives home the cosmic significance of his role in the Lucifer comics.
 
I was wondering if we can extend DeMatteis as not a single author but an amalgamation of authors with their Cosmology being based on Illusion(Mayavaic) and Reality(Oversoul/God) concepts. I've read a few and all their concepts up pretty well. We can call it Dream Cosmology
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
I was wondering if we can extend DeMatteis as not a single author but an amalgamation of authors with their Cosmology being based on Illusion(Mayavaic) and Reality(Oversoul/God) concepts. I've read a few and all their concepts up pretty well. We can call it Dream Cosmology
Click to expand...
Hmmm, it seems feasible, but can you provide some evidence that support that claim? I wanna see.
 
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