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God = Source = Presence = Overvoid Merging Profiles

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@ClassisNESfan

An aspect of DeMatteis God/Presence actually appeared in JL Dark as the Creator
 
Sandman i cannot find any scan of the issue of this JMD presence avatar online anywhere would anyone care to post a link of it here? The scans at least?
 
By My Neck said:
Sandman i cannot find any scan of the issue of this JMD presence avatar online anywhere would anyone care to post a link of it here? The scans at least?
Click to expand...
Probably this. https://***************.to/Comic/Constantine/Issue-10?id=1449
 
@Sandman wouldn't it be best to add a note on Pralaya's/God's page which says it was just an aspect of God she was going to consume?
 
What? The Pralaya scan?

That's disappointing. That story doesn't say the Presence was the Void though. Pralaya predates the "Creator".
 
Ya but he's referenced 3 times and since its Dematteis theres literally no one else.

Also he has already said that while the Void predates God, God still encompasses it in his being, some sort of paradox.
 
Its on twitter, DeMatteis said that The Creator is only an aspect of God. Ill try to find his tweet
 
Does the Presence have any new mentions or info in Rebirth? So far, it ended at N52, and all mentions of the Presence these days is in Lucifer 2018.
 
Yes, the Presence has been mentioned a few times in Justice League Dark, and Elaine Belloc was mentioned in the 31st Century, but it doesn't matter. Any absence of his mentioning would not indicate a retcon, as elements from Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis, and the New 52 that rely upon his existence are still in effect. I also don't know if it is appropriate to scale Pralaya from The Presence's physical manifestation just because she says she predates his existence. Entities like he are not so easily scaled. There's nuance to them. Fortunately, this thread isn't about scaling Pralaya, so we don't have to worry about it.
 
Where was it stated by anybody who worked on these things that any previous Lucifer or Vertigo comic run was made non-canon in the Sandman Universe?

Ignoring how that's probably not even possible due to the extensive metafictional elements of Sandman Universe, there is still the fact that in the 2018 Lucifer run, the issue of avatars was brought up in the tenth issue, and well:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/UG34AMQ4q...-UGrAC6C_3uiURhGBAviIpvsBy6eEeonXlG5flQ=s1600

The way I see it, thus perfectly reconciles all versions of Lucifer Morningstar in all Lucifer runs, and even his appearances in DC Comics proper; they're all avatars of a greater Will.
 
Elaine Belloc was mentioned in the 31st Century?

What? Are you talking about? Would I ask please so the name of the series, page, writer, of the scan?
 
Electric Warriors (2018-2019), Steve Orlando

But again, it's not like she's a major point of interest in the story or anything. She was just mentioned a few times.
 
Anyway, we've gotten off topic again. I'd really like some input from a few people about whether DeMatteis' God should have a key or not. If he is impersonal and absent enough, then frankly, I don't know if it's necessary because all of his attributes already exist in the form of The Source and The Overvoid.
 
Making a seperate Carey Key > Making a Dematteis key, it feels redundant to do both
 
I am personally of the opinion that we don't need much more than a key for The Source, The Overvoid, and The Presence. DeMatteis mentioning "God" or "The Almighty" or "The Creator" while referring to some vague, unseen, transcendent force that encompasses all things can ultimately just be written off as him referring to one of the other two forms.
 
ClassicNESfan is probably correct.
 
Sure, but it's still etchy.

The Brahman Presence is a different themology from the Source and the Monitor Mind, certainly for the latter.... because the latter doesn't even know where the DC Multiverse came from while in Matteis's stories, the Presence certainly does.

Just because one has similar themes, they have striking differences from a glance. Not saying a separate Matteis key should exist...... but interpreting them off..... just like that. Will give head scratches.
 
I really don't see it the same way. You might have a point when talking about DeMatteis' occasional use of Hindu cosmology or terminology, but his comments about God usually only extend to things like "Everything in the universe is a part of his imagination," "He encompasses and surpasses all of existence," "Everyone and everything is a part of him," "He is perfect, loving, and knows all." Frankly, these statements are all so generic and relatively vague that many of them could apply to any of the main three entities we're discussing. Even in the cases where his descriptions of God do directly use Hindu terminology, it's usually unclear how related it is to real-world Hindu theology. It's often hard to be certain he isn't just poetically referencing Hindu concepts or drawing cosmic parallels, and this is made even trickier by DeMatteis' frequent tendency to mix different theologies together and treat all belief systems as though they have equal value in the DC universe. On top of all of that, a lot of these comments about "God" are made by people who are not in a high enough position to verify their claims. Much of this larger than life talk could be applied to the weakest incarnation of the character if being said by your typical DC mystic. They are simply operating from too small of a perspective to appreciate the limits of his power.
 
Spectre merging with the Void beyond Voids, deeming the DC Multiverse as the Presence's Creation.... is not a good enough position to verify their claims? And how where Creation came from? God.

Overvoid doesn't even know where the DC Multiverse came from, even though there were countless Creations like it that came before Perpetua's.

They're different enough and trying to censor the small but serious differences is not helping.
 
No, I do not think that The Spectre merging with the Void and saying "God created the universe" is sufficient. That can be easily explained by The Presence or The Source, especially considering how in an earlier run, The Spectre considered The Source an aspect of God. I'm not trying to censor anything, and I take offense at the baseless accusation. I am just straight up saying that DeMatteis' various descriptions of God are so similar in concept to The Overvoid, The Source, and The Presence that it could be categorized the same way we deal with other various author interpretations of different characters on this site. I am not convinced that the DeMatteis God needs his own key.
 
@ClassicNESfan I honestly don't get your point at all, what's wrong with making a God (DC comics) Profile then merging all 3 and explaining it? Then leave the source, presence and overmonitor profiles to themselves due to seperate writers.
 
Hykuu is right.

You don't understand that merging three characters (Presence, Source and Overvoid) is a relatively very sensitive issue outside your forum.

Without context and just throwing it all willy nill like

"Well, I could head-canon assume that this is that and the starking differences are not important"

No. You have to 100% explain on the profiles the context behind DC's messy Top-God issue. And ignoring and censoring the information will never be a quality profile of explanation.

DC Comics is an exceptional verse with one of the worst contradictions of canon (even worse than Marvel). And you do not do the context justice by just pretending it's not there. You have to explain why the characters are merged fluently. Or you create more problems.
 
By My Neck makes a good point.
 
I don't think there's anything wrong with making a God (DC Comics) Profile and merging The Presence, The Source, and The Overvoid together. My issue is that I have not been given sufficient evidence that DeMatteis' views on God (who never appears to my knowledge) are different enough from the already existing views to warrant a new profile. Complicated though DC may be (along with theology in general) "God" is a fairly basic concept, and nearly every single aspect of DeMatteis' views on him are already expressed by one or all three of the profiles we already have. So while there might be ample evidence that all three entities are connected and there might be some writers who view "God" in such a way that would require all three to be connected, this idea that God needs a fourth key because DeMatteis and only DeMatteis occasionally has a character mention an unseen force that has the same basic qualities as the other characters we already have seems weird. If we already have an entity like The Source, for example, who is established to encompass and surpass all of creation, imagine everything in the universe into existence , be a part of everybody, answers to "God", heavily implied to be an aspect of the entity The Spectre serves, and we even have explanations throughout DC suggesting that the supreme being is just referred to differentlydepending on who's asking, then why do we need a profile for the DeMatteis God, when all we have on him is that he imagined the universe into existence, everybody is a part of him, he is the entity the Spectre serves, and he encompasses and surpasses all of creation? We don't even have a different face to go by. At a certain point the law of identity kicks in and we just have to say "Okay. We already have a profile for that guy." The fact that DeMatteis may not have been thinking about The Source specifically when describing the entity is irrelevant. He was still describing all The Source represents in DC Comics.
 
dude you do realize all the scans and arguments you posted literally just shows they are one in the same as God right? There was no need to type out all that
 
The Point = A Dematteis key which no one said should be made as a seperate key as he is one of the key writers who composites all the entities, pretty redundant point if you ask me.

Also, When are we making the page?
 
Hykuu, I think you're a little lost. BMN and I were discussing whether DeMatteis' God should have a separate key from the other three or not. In other words, a profile that looks like this: The Overvoid | The Source | The Presence | DeMatteis' God. I am suggesting that that is not necessary and we only really need the first three.
 
Hykuu said:
The Point = A Dematteis key as he is one of the key writers who composites all the entities, pretty redundant point if you ask me.
Also, When are we making the page?
Click to expand...
okay read it now
 
Well, DeMatteis isn't really one of the key writers to composite the entities, but I do agree with the general idea that it would be redundant. The three entities should really be merged together under a single profile and have a note at the bottom with citations explaining that they have all been established as aspects of the same thing. That should take care of the problem this thread sets out to resolve.
 
One thing we need to consider is that DeMatteis has not only a "different" interpretation of God but he also seems to have his own cosmology to go along with it. Anyway, not going to argue for a seperate key for DeMatteis God, just saying that some writers not only have their own interpretation of certain characters (In this case, the Presence), but sometimes they also craft an almost complete lore and cosmology around them that we shouldnt ignore in favor of other "interpretation"

Warning long text ahead, But this is about The Presence and Sandman/Lucifer cosmology

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Sandman31/DC/Vertigo
 
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