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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
@Elizhaa @Eficiente @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @LordGriffin1000 @Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Antvasima @Ultima_Reality
Can I interest any of you in a further effort to fix up DC profiles? As it stands, though the cosmology split removed all of DC's egregiously unjustified tiers and cross-scaling, it was applied so sloppily that the only real improvement was the aforementioned. Profile justifications weren't updated, much of the P&A is outdated and sloppy, and the profiles are all-around extremely substandard.
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@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeTwo @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @LuciferX @Vasco @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @JohnCenaNation @VeryGoofyToddler @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @catzlaflame @Robo432343 @VeryGoofyToddler @Lonkitt @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @DarkDragonMedeus @Zensum @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Hykuu @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca

I would greatly appreciate you help with this. 🙏
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
@Elizhaa @Eficiente @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @LordGriffin1000 @Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Antvasima @Ultima_Reality
Can I interest any of you in a further effort to fix up DC profiles? As it stands, though the cosmology split removed all of DC's egregiously unjustified tiers and cross-scaling, it was applied so sloppily that the only real improvement was the aforementioned. Profile justifications weren't updated, much of the P&A is outdated and sloppy, and the profiles are all-around extremely substandard.
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I'm interested
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
So what could use my help? Input on what?
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After our DC Comics cosmology revision project was accepted, the changes seem to have been rather sloppily applied, and we need help from all available knowledgeable members with sufficient editing skills to to so considerably more properly.

vsbattles.fandom.com

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Elizio33 said:
I'm interested
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Thank you. That would be extremely appreciated. 🙏
 
So are any of you willing to collaborate to organise a project to apply the changes based on our DC Comics Cosmology page in a much more professional manner please? I would greatly appreciate the help. 🙏
 
It certainly wouldn't hurt, but it should probably be placed in our staff forum, with only our staff members and other members who are willing to genuinely help out with the project allowed to respond there, as we would just have to deal with a lot of irrelevant derailment from people who want us to undo the revision otherwise.
 
Starting with the Morrison/Snyder/Tynion cosmology, we must first choose another name for this cosmology.

Second, we should also add the works of Joshua Williamson since he drew inspiration from the cosmologies of Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder for the Dark Crisis era. Since most of the origins of creation recounted by Dr. Multiverse were false ideas manipulated by Pariah, the Light still came from the Great Darkness, but the Great Darkness was not the cause of the crises, for it was the belief that the darkness wanted everything to return into nothingness, it simply wants to engage with the Light above.

We should also add Grant Morrison's older works such as JLA, Doom Patrol and Animal Man and add only the most relevant information that is not outdated or contracted by newer stories.

While Morrison's older stories had at least eight dimensions with the six-dimensional bottle, the eight-dimensional maze, and the eight-dimensional mobius loop, it is difficult to say where these dimensions lie since the multiverse according to Grant Morrison's approach is a 4-dimensional space-time continuum. Not to mention that the higher Fifth Dimension exists outside of creation, according to Morrison's JLA, as the blood of the multiverse, according to Snyder's Justice League. It is possible that the whole map of the multiverse is made up of different sections of the same 4-dimensional spatiotemporal structure, but each larger and more complex than one another with different rules, and the Fifth Dimension encompasses it all and the Sixth Dimension is the pinnacle of this cosmological structure.
 
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Okay. That mostly seems fine to me, but are you certain that we should not keep the Joshua Williamson cosmology separate from Morrison's? Aren't there too considerable contradictions?
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. That mostly seems fine to me, but are you certain that we should not keep the Joshua Williamson cosmology separate from Morrison's? Aren't there too considerable contradictions?
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Since most of the origins of creation recounted by Dr. Multiverse were false ideas manipulated by Pariah, the Light still came from the Great Darkness, but the Great Darkness was not the cause of the crises, for it was the belief that the darkness wanted everything to return into nothingness, it simply wants to engage with the Light above.

There is also this statement made by Lex Luthor suggesting that the Omniverse would be a false idea manipulated by Pariah, but the Omniverse was later mentioned during Flashpoint Beyond which occurred after Dark Crisis. Maybe Luthor's comment was meant to say that the Omniverse isn't everything like they once believed and that there are things beyond it, like the Great Darkness that was said to be beyond the Omniverse for exemple.

I see no notable contradictions with Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder's works.
 
Elizio33 said:
Starting with the Morrison/Snyder/Tynion cosmology, we must first choose another name for this cosmology.
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I still think "Crisis Cosmology" is the simplest and most direct, since this cosmology is largely tethered to and associated with the various Crisis events, and our other cosmologies do not interact with those events.

Elizio33 said:
We should also add Grant Morrison's older works such as JLA, Doom Patrol and Animal Man and add only the most relevant information that is not outdated or contracted by newer stories.

While Morrison's older stories had at least eight dimensions with the six-dimensional bottle, the eight-dimensional maze, and the eight-dimensional mobius loop, it is difficult to say where these dimensions lie since the multiverse according to Grant Morrison's approach is a 4-dimensional space-time continuum.
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I am not against allowing the inclusion of certain parts of Grant's older work, but I would want to have it reflected in newer comics as well. He wrote about a lot of concepts in the 80s and 90s and abandoned most of it. I don't think it's in our best interest to make a sort of Frankenstein cosmology by attaching old abandoned ideas that never made it out of Animal Man, JLA or Doom Patrol.
 
The origins of creation told by Dr. Multiverse during Justice League Incarnate #4 by Joshua Williamson tell us that at the beginning nothing was everything, a single black infinitude (Great Darkness), then came a burning light. As the light grew, everything became nothing and the darkness screamed, causing an imperceptible flaw in what was once the immaculate perfection of the light. In that moment, the cosmos was born. In a more contextualized way, it was at this moment and from The Source that the raw materials of a multiverse were born and gathered by an unseen hand for Perpetua to take and shape into a functioning multiverse.
 
Deagonx said:
I still think "Crisis Cosmology" is the simplest and most direct, since this cosmology is largely tethered to and associated with the various Crisis events, and our other cosmologies do not interact with those events.


I am not against allowing the inclusion of certain parts of Grant's older work, but I would want to have it reflected in newer comics as well. He wrote about a lot of concepts in the 80s and 90s and abandoned most of it. I don't think it's in our best interest to make a sort of Frankenstein cosmology by attaching old abandoned ideas that never made it out of Animal Man, JLA or Doom Patrol.
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Agreed. "Crisis Cosmology" seems fine to me. As for Morrison's older information, yeah, we add only the informations that aren't outdated or in contradiction with the newer stories. Those that actually fit with the newer informations.
 
Personally, the JLA's information could be further evidence of the 4-D multiverse and in some way fits with Scott Snyder's approach to the DCU.
 
Wouldn't Joshua Williamson unwisely establishing The Great Darkness/Lucifer suddenly being vastly superior to The Overvoid/The Source/Yahweh/The Light in DC Comics (and as such turning the entire setting into an absolutely morbid and hopeless dystopia) be a massive contradiction with what Grant Morrison established about The Overvoid being the ultimate blank canvas above absolutely all else? I am not comfortable with letting a hack writer like Williamson suddenly retroactively overwrite what Morrison established, rather than keeping the cosmologies separate.
 
Antvasima said:
Wouldn't Joshua Williamson unwisely establishing The Great Darkness/Lucifer suddenly being vastly superior to The Overvoid/The Source/Yahweh/The Light in DC Comics (and as such turning the entire setting into an absolutely morbid and hopeless dystopia) be a massive contradiction with what Grant Morrison established about The Overvoid being the ultimate blank canvas above absolutely all else? I am not comfortable with letting a hack writer like Williamson suddenly retroactively overwrite what Morrison established, rather than keeping the cosmologies separate.
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Well, the fact that Overvoid is primarily the ultimate blank canvas surpassing everything has been established exclusively in Morrison's interviews rather than in the comics. In the comics, the Overvoid has been depicted as a conscious living void of immaculate perfection, beyond the Source Wall where thought itself ceases to be. It has been described as non-dual, but its relationship with the flaw is described as a duality defining existence and non-existence. Anyway, my point is that if we don't include most of Morrison's claims, there would be no notable contradictions with Williamson's approach to the DC Universe. I mean, if we made an exception with Morrison and Snyder's cosmologies despite the contradictions, then why not? Also, we shouldn't include Lucifer and Yahweh in this, Vertigo was more apart from DC and even though authors like Scott Snyder took the basis of Mike Carey's works and applied them into his cosmology, Vertigo doesn't fit in very well.
 
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Antvasima said:
Wouldn't Joshua Williamson unwisely establishing The Great Darkness/Lucifer suddenly being vastly superior to The Overvoid/The Source/Yahweh/The Light in DC Comics (and as such turning the entire setting into an absolutely morbid and hopeless dystopia) be a massive contradiction with what Grant Morrison established about The Overvoid being the ultimate blank canvas above absolutely all else? I am not comfortable with letting a hack writer like Williamson suddenly retroactively overwrite what Morrison established, rather than keeping the cosmologies separate.
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Elizio33 said:
Well, the fact that Overvoid is primarily the ultimate blank canvas surpassing everything has been established exclusively in Morrison's interviews rather than in the comics. In the comics, the Overvoid has been depicted as a conscious living void of immaculate perfection, beyond the Source Wall where thought itself ceases to be. It has been described as non-dual, but its relationship with the flaw is described as a duality defining existence and non-existence. Anyway, my point is that if we don't include most of Morrison's claims, there would be no notable contradictions with Williamson's approach to the DC Universe. I mean, if we made an exception with Morrison and Snyder's cosmologies despite the contradictions, then why not? Also, we shouldn't include Lucifer and Yahweh in this, Vertigo was more apart from DC and even though authors like Scott Snyder took the basis of Mike Carey's works and applied them into his cosmology, Vertigo doesn't fit in very well.
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Lucifer was shown to be The Great Darkness during the latest Crisis event.

@Deagonx @PrinceofPein @Eficiente @Firestorm808 @LuciferDC099 @Qawsedf234

What do you think about this?
 
Given that Williamson's origin story for the void/darkness is a direct callback to the Swamp Thing story involving the Presence, it's hard not to see why we wouldn't include them, especially given that the Lucifer and Great Darkness were equated, and Dan Watters established Lucifer as being the Presence's dark opposite used to give him definition. Dan Watters also contributed to the ongoing Dark Crisis and is helping with Williamsons cosmology. If anything we could just have a different key for this version of Lucifer if we really needed to distinguish them, but there's nothing inherently wrong with a character inhabiting or scaling to multiple cosmologies, we just need to prove thats the case, unlike say Pralaya who has no connection to anything else in DC.
 
Okay then. I strongly dislike the morbid and dystopian changes that Williamson and Watters have imposed on the cosmology, but suppose that I have to accept blending them then.

So how would this affect our current tiering, and should a specific discussion thread be created to discuss this issue?
 
I'm not sure it affects the tiering much, but I haven't read the rest of the comic. Williamson is more explicit about certain things, but we already treat the Presence, Overvoid, Lucifer, and the Great Darkness as all having the same tier.
 
Antvasima said:
Lucifer was shown to be The Great Darkness during the latest Crisis event.

@Deagonx @PrinceofPein @Eficiente @Firestorm808 @LuciferDC099 @Qawsedf234

What do you think about this?
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No, the Great Darkness only took the form of Lucifer, Trigon, The Upside-Down Man during its interaction with John Constantine during the last Crisis event. In any case, it doesn't matter since some information contradicting what we had a year earlier has been falsified. I am not saying that there is no contradiction but Williamson's cosmology is in direct continuity with the work of Scott Snyder, notably with Infinite Frontier, and he took the basis of the works of Morrison (Final Crisis/Multiversity) and Marv Wolfman (Crisis on Infinite Earths) and Allen Moore (Swamp Thing: American Gothic).
 
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First off, hello all, I'm new here.

Secondly, if Ultima's Proposal passes, Dematteis cosmology should be affected positively by it. As per the accepted cosmology blog, The Presence sees all of creation as a dream. I'm not sure what tier it will be granted or if it'll affect other characters/cosmology, but it should get a decent bump. That's if the proposal passes, of course.

By the way, after looking over the cosmology blog, Dematteis specifically. Why doesn't The Presence and Pralaya have Transduality or Nonduality on their pages? It is pretty explicit that The Presence birthed duality from his oneness and transcends it as its formed within his dream. Pralaya, Mahapralaya specifically, predates it and will erase it, when its time. The scans are already in the cosmology page so I'm wondering why they haven't been added.

That is all, for now.
 
Asterotheology said:
By the way, after looking over the cosmology blog, Dematteis specifically. Why doesn't The Presence and Pralaya have Transduality or Nonduality on their pages? It is pretty explicit that The Presence birthed duality from his oneness and transcends it as its formed within his dream. Pralaya, Mahapralaya specifically, predates it and will erase it, when its time. The scans are already in the cosmology page so I'm wondering why they haven't been added.
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Presumably because we haven't gotten around to updating the profiles.
 
Deagonx said:
This very likely wouldn't qualify for the type of transcendence being discussed, as it's shown that one can ascend/descend through the layers of reality with relative ease.
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I don't think that necessarily disqualifies The Presence. Everything in creation is a part of it's dream. Them being able to move up through all of creation doesn't really lessens that it's a dream/illusion in comparison to The Presence, who's beyond it all.

As seen in issues 6, 17 and 20 of Doctor Fate(1988), they're referred to as drops in the divine ocean of love. Said drops only being "drops" of God's consciousness(issue 20, page 11). That's along with The Presence containing and surpassing everyone and everything in creation with them only being viewed as "small aspects" and a "minor drifting thought" in the sea of eternity. It's made pretty clear that creation and all other beings aren't real compared to The Presence.

So all in all, I do believe it would apply. The Presence and Creation are accepted as being separated by the dream/illusion, which the latter is. Them passing up through said illusion easily doesn't really negate that only the Presence truly exist beyond it all. If you still disagree then that's fine. I already pointed to where each thing is stated or shown in those comics. Some of the above statements and scans are already accepted in the cosmology blog, like all of creation being just a dream and The Presence surpasses it all completely as the Void Beyond All Voids.

That's my thoughts on it. We can revisit it at a later date, if Ultima's proposal passes. It only applies to The Presence in Dematteis cosmology. Since only it truly exist while everything else is an illusion.
 
Asterotheology said:
Them being able to move up through all of creation doesn't really lessens that it's a dream/illusion in comparison to The Presence, who's beyond it all.
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The fact that each layer is "deeper" dream is a defeater to this unless something specific says that the layer to the presence is qualitatively different.
 
Deagonx said:
The fact that each layer is "deeper" dream is a defeater to this unless something specific says that the layer to the presence is qualitatively different.
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The layer to the Presence would be the void itself or Mahapralaya. Something that is put squarely between the Presence and Creation. It drags all of creation down into the sea of brahma after the Kali Yuga cycle. A sleep that all things and beings must fall into when it's time for the sleep of brahma. This is before the Presence starts the whole process of creation over again by birthing duality from it's oneness and so on. All of this is seen in Doctor Fate(1988) issue 6 and Justice League Dark Issues 39-41.

What can I really say beyond that? It's accepted on the cosmology page that the Presence is infinitely greater than Pralaya, seeing it as a dream. Then Pralaya is infinitely greater than all of creation, along with Heaven and it's planes of existence. If the blog is wrong then maybe someone should edit it to reflect what's actually accepted. If that's still not enough for you or others then I'm fine with conceding the point. I don't really see a need to argue on about it.
 
I think DeMatteis and Vertigo Cosmologies would be upgraded back to 1-A, but Morrison and Snyder's Cosmology would, and should, say to 1-C.
 
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