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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

Xearsay said:
You claim Morrison never mentions Animal Man in his later work or on the guidebook and then immediately state that he included Limbo which was a big concept first explored in Animal Man that was also placed and illustrated on the Multiversity map in the Multiversity guidebook. So you’ve literally debunked yourself within your own claim
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My statement was "he didn't mention any of it except Limbo." I didn't contradict myself, you split a single sentence up into two different ones.

But nonetheless, Qawsedf is right, this conversation isn't appropriate for this thread and a CRT can be made if you feel so inclined.
 
The split for the DC Cosmology isn't perfect, some things need adjusting, but the idea is at least good enough for me. A composite DC cosmology created an impossible chain of power scaling that did not match the feats shown by some characters in the comics and there was some problems with the cosmology since there is different interpretations of the DCU made by different writers.
 
I think the point of the feat is that, even though there are things that connect these series of different writer's work together, there are far more things that disconnects them and makes it incoherent.
And of course anyone is welcome to make a CRT to overturn the decision instead of complaining about it, that would not change a thing
 
Antvasima said:
And the DC Comics cosmology page has around 173 references, if I remember correctly. It has been thoroughly handled, even though I am very open to improvements in the language/wordings of the page, as well as further improvements on the practical applications (edits) of this accepted revision to our affected character profile pages, both from our project members and other knowledgeable members.
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I'm not that knowledgeable when it come to Tier 1, i don't think i can be of much help here.
 
Does anyone in the cosmologies qualify for HDE anymore? The following people currently have it:
  1. Anti-Monitor
  2. Death of the Endless
  3. Mister Mxyzptlk
  4. The Monitor
  5. The Spectre
  6. The Ultra-Monitor
  7. The World Forger
  8. Zauriel (Post-Crisis)
  • For Morrison/Snyder/Tynion, the Fifth and Sixth dimensions aren't spatial but provide the same degree of qualitative superiority as spatial ones, so what should we do with characters scaling to them?
  • For Vertigo, Heaven/the Silver City and everything above is a qualitatively superior realm to the multiverse, but not in a spatial way, so what should we do with its characters?
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Does anyone in the cosmologies qualify for HDE anymore? The following people currently have it:
  1. Anti-Monitor
  2. Death of the Endless
  3. Mister Mxyzptlk
  4. The Monitor
  5. The Spectre
  6. The Ultra-Monitor
  7. The World Forger
  8. Zauriel (Post-Crisis)
  • For Morrison/Snyder/Tynion, the Fifth and Sixth dimensions aren't spatial but provide the same degree of qualitative superiority as spatial ones, so what should we do with characters scaling to them?
  • For Vertigo, Heaven/the Silver City and everything above is a qualitatively superior realm to the multiverse, but not in a spatial way, so what should we do with its characters?
Click to expand...
Do you mean Higher-Dimensional Existence ? If yes, they qualify for HDE. In the Snyder canon, Mr. Mxyzptlk was reducing the art to sketches, which in one sense means that he perceives the Material Universe as fiction, not to mention that Mxy was already said to exist on a higher-dimensional state. The Monitor Brothers' cells are such that they cannot exist on the 3-D plane of existence according to the World Forger (unless they change their cells to exist on the 3-D plane, but this reduce their power), they were portrayed to be far larger than the multiverse. I don't know if that's what you mean?
 
Elizio33 said:
Do you mean Higher-Dimensional Existence ? If yes, they qualify for HDE. In the Snyder canon, Mr. Mxyzptlk was reducing the art to sketches, which in one sense means that he perceives the Material Universe as fiction, not to mention that Mxy was already said to exist on a higher-dimensional state. The Monitor Brothers' cells are such that they cannot exist on the 3-D plane of existence according to the World Forger and they were portrayed to be far larger than the multiverse. I don't know if that's what you mean?
Click to expand...
What about the Vertigo characters?
 
Elizio33 said:
The Archangels mostly scale to the Silver City which predates and transcends the Material Universe and looks down upon it. Time and Space are extensions of the mind and will, which Lucifer embodies.
Click to expand...
That's not a justification for another axis. Also, of the Endless, only Death has HDE, which seems inconsistent.
 
The only thing I would like to note about the Morrison/Snyder/Tynion cosmology is that the higher planes of existence presented in Snyder's stories, while outside of time, do not transcend it since there have been cases where the Sixth Dimension has proven to have time.
The Sixth Dimension is referred to along a timeline of 20 billion years. When Superman fights in the Sixth Dimension, his speed is referred to in physical terms, saying it will take hours for light to catch up with him, months for sound. The higher planes may transcend space but do not transcend time.
 
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Elizio33 said:
The only thing I would like to note about the Morrison/Snyder/Tynion cosmology is that the higher planes of existence presented in Snyder's stories, while outside of time, do not transcend it since there have been cases where the Sixth Dimension has proven to have time. The Sixth Dimension is referred to along a timeline of 20 billion years. When Superman fights in the Sixth Dimension, his speed is referred to in physical terms, saying it will take hours for light to catch up with him, months for sound. The higher planes may transcend space but do not transcend time.
Click to expand...
Yeah, pretty much. Not to mention a time-stop working there.
IMG-9997.jpg
 
Elizio33 said:
Good to know but does this affect the Low 1-C tiering?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say so. Time is not a coordinate dimension but generalized in fiction as one. But you can have have your time stream be Tier 0 without affecting AP. You'd just need to prove that the space aligns with coordinate dimensions/higher dimensional spaces.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I wouldn't say so. Time is not a coordinate dimension but generalized in fiction as one. But you can have have your time stream be Tier 0 without affecting AP. You'd just need to prove that the space aligns with coordinate dimensions/higher dimensional spaces.
Click to expand...
So HDE characters in DC like Mister Mxyzptlk can remains Low 1-C?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Afaik they can.
Click to expand...
I have one last question regarding the Monitors in general. The Monitors are far larger than creation and their cells are such that they cannot normally exist on the 3D plane of existence unless they change their own cells to entre the 3D World, but this greatly diminishes their power, is this a good justification for the Low 1-C tier ?
 
Elizio33 said:
The split for the DC Cosmology isn't perfect, some things need adjusting, but the idea is at least good enough for me. A composite DC cosmology created an impossible chain of power scaling that did not match the feats shown by some characters in the comics and there was some problems with the cosmology since there is different interpretations of the DCU made by different writers.
Click to expand...
This applies to all verses as well then especially Marvel. There shouldn't be some special treatment when they all have the same idea. I'm just saying if we do this for DC we do it for every verse.

OT: 6D has time. It's like Nil it doesn't work the same but nevertheless is temporal in nature.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
This applies to all verses as well then especially Marvel. There shouldn't be some special treatment when they all have the same idea. I'm just saying if we do this for DC we do it for every verse.

OT: 6D has time. It's like Nil it doesn't work the same but nevertheless is temporal in nature.
Click to expand...
Marvel should definitely get the same treatment we did with DC because current tiers of the Marvel's characters are over the top as hell, but this is not the good thread to talk about it. I was just saying that the splitting for DC was needed for more accurate tierings instead of having inaccurate tierings based on pure chain of power scaling or cosmology scaling, especially if an interpretation of one cosmology does not correspond to another. For example, scaling the Archangels of Vertigo above the Monitors of Grant Morrison isn't a good idea since the Archangels belongs to the Sphere of the Gods which exists below Nil in Morrison's Cosmology. It's just my opinion. I understand that many do not share the same opinion.
 
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Elizio33 said:
Marvel should definitely get the same treatment we did with DC because current tiers of the Marvel's characters are over the top as hell, but this is not the good thread to talk about it. I was just saying that the splitting for DC was needed for more accurate tierings instead of having inaccurate tierings based on pure chain of power scaling or cosmology scaling, especially if an interpretation of one cosmology does not correspond to another. For example, scaling the Archangels of Vertigo above the Monitors of Grant Morrison isn't a good idea since the Archangels belongs to the Sphere of the Gods which exists below Nil in Morrison's Cosmology. It's just my opinion. I understand that many do not share the same opinion.
Click to expand...
The BOD, which encompasses and transcends all dimensions found in the multiverse map Grant created, can be easily destroyed by Lucifer.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
This applies to all verses as well then especially Marvel. There shouldn't be some special treatment when they all have the same idea. I'm just saying if we do this for DC we do it for every verse.

OT: 6D has time. It's like Nil it doesn't work the same but nevertheless is temporal in nature.
Click to expand...
Marvel was allowed a composite cosmology because Ultima proved that the contradictions could be explained by the One Above All constantly adjusting the natural order. Provide a similar justification for DC, and then we'll talk.
 
To be perfectly honest I fail to see the point of discussing the validity of the cosmology split on the verse's discussion thread, of all places. Healthy discussion is obviously fine but, as I see it, all-out debate is something that should be reserved for proper CRTs. Nothing is going to be accomplished here.
 
It was a two-cent for anyone who wanted to read it. Someone will soon make a thread possibly in that regard.

However, I was reading the Vertigo thread that was closed recently on the non-temporal nature of the Void. I would like to say that the stacking was true of everything in the Void including Creations.

Mike Carey has literally written beings who experience time in the Void. Their perception is what is in question. Nevertheless, periods and history still exist in the Void, it's just not temporal in nature because the rules are you can not predict when something is. It's not completely devoid of time. The Jin En Moks has floated in the Void for times beyond imagination.

The scans literally imply it by saying: “So things” as they mention of layered stacking. Creations are in the Void, they count as “things.” Beings that are in the Void are not beyond time but simply in the process of existing without time. So if you apply something of time it can affect things in the Void. Like how the Void is empty but the Demiurgic power can fill matter in that same nothing. Maybe devoid of time but you can add time to it. The only set rule is “everything comes back to the Void.”

This thread was closed without any further input:
vsbattles.com

Vertigo Comics~The Void 1-A Upgrade

There is no single creator in Vertigo, and there are creators before Yahweh and creations before Yahweh's creation. There will be creations and builders/creators more valuable than Yahweh's creation and himself. In The Void, everything is infinitely layered upon itself. When we say everything...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Some of those “planes” and “places” are not correlated with the Dreaming. Dreaming encompasses the Material Universe but it doesn't to the whole of Creation. The caveat is Dream’s influence which reaches everywhere including other realms(Heaven, Hell, et cetera)
 
@Elizhaa @Eficiente @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @LordGriffin1000 @Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Antvasima @Ultima_Reality
Can I interest any of you in a further effort to fix up DC profiles? As it stands, though the cosmology split removed all of DC's egregiously unjustified tiers and cross-scaling, it was applied so sloppily that the only real improvement was the aforementioned. Profile justifications weren't updated, much of the P&A is outdated and sloppy, and the profiles are all-around extremely substandard.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
@Elizhaa @Eficiente @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @LordGriffin1000 @Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Antvasima @Ultima_Reality
Can I interest any of you in a further effort to fix up DC profiles? As it stands, though the cosmology split removed all of DC's egregiously unjustified tiers and cross-scaling, it was applied so sloppily that the only real improvement was the aforementioned. Profile justifications weren't updated, much of the P&A is outdated and sloppy, and the profiles are all-around extremely substandard.
Click to expand...
Sadly I don't think I can fully help with this since DC is kind of a side thing for me. I only occasionally read about characters I find interesting which is why I've only done revisions for lantern characters like Atrocitus, Larfleeze and Volthoom. I'm not sure I'd be up to the task of deciding who goes were in terms of scaling and right now I'm unable to even grab scans due to phone issues (My broke self can't afford a new one) so unless that changes, I can't do much. At most, I can potentially evaluate threads and get them moving if needed but that's about it. My apologies.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
@Elizhaa @Eficiente @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @LordGriffin1000 @Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Antvasima @Ultima_Reality
Can I interest any of you in a further effort to fix up DC profiles? As it stands, though the cosmology split removed all of DC's egregiously unjustified tiers and cross-scaling, it was applied so sloppily that the only real improvement was the aforementioned. Profile justifications weren't updated, much of the P&A is outdated and sloppy, and the profiles are all-around extremely substandard.
Click to expand...
Strongly agreed. I would greatly appreciate competent help with greatly improving on them, but have been unsuccessful at getting any of our members to do so as of yet.
 
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