Any reasoning for why this is the case? If you would like to present a case for upgrading or revamping the profiles, then I'm all ears, but complaining about the cosmology split is nothing new to me.
What LordTracer said. Splitting by writer is not something done in other series, so why should it be done with DC? Should we also split a character's powerset, personality and statistics by writers?
You're hearing from a lot of the people who opposed the split in the first place and wanted certain characters to stay extremely high.
The split happened because the differing takes were just too irreconcilable to be cross-scaled at face value. With Marvel, Ultima took the time and effort to craft a convincing case for compositing different authors' cosmologies despite Marvel's contradictions. I'm open to someone trying the same for DC, but merely complaining about the split without offering actual evidence against it isn't going to convince anyone.
For what it is worth, Ultima himself was in support of the split. He's acknowledged that the cosmologies are too distinct to intermingle.
Ok, and should we also split abilities based on writers?
We already do for DC.
On what profiles?
Most characters affected by the cosmology split only exist in one cosmology, so it's not on the profiles.
I'm talking about splitting DC character's abilities and keys based on writer. Not just the ones who scale to the cosmology, but every single character in DC
Not referencing does not equate to non canon. By the same token, the whole JLD comic would be a different continuity and we should also split Zatanna and John Constantine's profile and add feats from DeMatteis' comics into its own key
The cosmology was split because of extreme contradictions between different takes on it. Show me one character written so differently that splitting their P&A between authors would be necessary, and then we'll talk.
Sure, I mean this is the canned response I get whenever I discuss this, but we aren't talking about two characters who live in Gotham but never met, and just assuming they never happened to cross paths. We're referring to the very highest cosmic beings with overlapping descriptions, functions, and domains, with no sense of continuity between them at all.
If possible, can you link the full explanation?
We are very open to help from competent and knowledgeable members to improve on the changes to individual pages and to the formatting of our DC Comics Cosmology page, but the cosmology page in itself has been very thoroughly researched and officially accepted.
There isn't a written one.
That's dumb. Why would someone make a massive revision without giving the full explanation?
Very tribalist us vs them mindset a lot of you guys seem to have for some obscure reasons. If the justifications weren't so weird and mishandled people wouldn't complain.
Definitely not true. People will complain about anything regardless of how solid it is if they want to upgrade the characters.
That's fine. A lot of people worked on the project, there was no way to guarantee that everyone agreed with everything that was done.
I think it should be pretty obvious but the split itself was designed to solely restrict the tiers and doesn’t paint an accurate representation of the DC cosmology. And this was done through basically just deliberately ignoring a lot of evidence and core themes that surround the cosmology and help build the grand mythology at play.
Speaking like the split had hidden motivations because the staff involved wanted to downplay DC is ignorant at best and poisoning the well at worst. Do you have an actual case to make for some of the characters being tiered higher than what they currently are, or are you just upset that some of your favorite characters got downgraded and we can't have that because reasons?
First, even if you proved the SOTG was platonic, you still have all your work ahead of you to prove a specific tier to it. Second, we do consider the SOTG as transcendent to the Orrery, just not by so much as to warrant an uncountably infinite difference between them. Third, we absolutely don't consider SOTG-level characters as on the same level as DC heralds; Pre-Crisis heralds scale to three spacetimes, Post-Crisis heralds haven't even finished being upgraded yet and aren't going to scale to more than a few, while SOTG-level characters scale to 52 spacetimes.
We gave plenty of evidence for this, just ask anyone involved.
If you believe something on our profiles is wrong, explain it to us so that we can fix it. However, unless you take the time and effort to craft a genuinely well-reasoned and convincing case like Ultima did with compositing Marvel's cosmology to reach High 1-A instead of just complaining, you won't convince anyone.
He's made many CRTs to that effect but all of them that I can remember were rejected by staff.
I wouldn’t consider it ignorant at all. Especially since I could say literally the same for you assuming cosmic DC characters are my favorite when it’s actually heralds and then assuming I’m actually mad over it.
I kind of already mentioned this but a lot of comics were restricted from Morrisons cosmology for pretty invalid reasons so it would be pointless to try and prove anything in the cosmologies current state on the site since we’re not able to grasp the cosmology in full. It would be much more efficient to just revamp the whole thing. Also yeah the Gods are gonna be higher into 2-C than heralds but the fact that the gods are 2-C like the heralds but simply higher into is what’s laughable.
You couldn’t point to any specific evidence for Morrisons earlier comics being incompatible with his previous comics even if you wanted to because there was no evidence given. The whole reason stems from some weird claim that Morrison retconned their earlier stories despite there being no evidence for such a thing and Morrison explicitly stating the opposite. And no I’m not gonna ask the people involved either, especially since I don’t consider them trustworthy for pretty valid reasons.
To fix DC would require another massive revision most likely taking a couple months to possibly a year. However, when I do feel like I have the time I’ll definitely try update some profiles.
I wasn't assuming anything about you, I was just making a general statement about people I've seen opposing the cosmology split. Saying "I wouldn’t consider it ignorant at all" isn't an argument.
They were restricted for perfectly valid reasons unless you can refute the reasons given. Saying "it's laughable" isn't an argument either and just comes off as you laughing off unambiguous evidence.
Whether you consider the people trustworthy is irrelevant to the scans they provide. @Deagonx Want to help me here? There was plenty of evidence given.
Right. Morrison considers all of the stuff from Animal Man canon and part of the cosmology except never mentioned it in any of his later work or implemented it in the giant guide he was tasked with creating for the cosmology except Limbo. That makes perfect sense!
To align DC with your views, rather. The profiles are much better than they were before, and we aren't going to go backwards rather than forwards and undo the split or the revisions.
He's aware, he attempted to debate against it when it was first discussed and wasn't successful. I wouldn't hang too much on attempting to get him to see reason. As you saw from the link you posted, he's been attempting DC upgrades for actual years without any success, so he's not going to change his mind now no matter what is provided to him.
It didn’t come off that way to me but whatever. Also I would say claim that “it’s ignorant” isn’t an argument either.
I could but I already stated that the lots of evidence that could produce a different tier is being restricted so scaling the cosmology in its current state wouldn’t make much sense.
They didn’t provide any scans. However if you want me to breakdown the opposing argument and why it’s wrong I can very much do that.
It's ignorant because you're claiming that people who've expressed quite clearly that they're only trying to handle irreconcilable contradictions are consciously trying to downplay a verse.
Where's this evidence?
@Deagonx Please help.
Let’s start here then.
If you feel that it's warranted then go ahead. DC has roughly as much evidence as Marvel does for their higher dimensional spaces if you use the same evidence standards. Or at least I feel like they do.
How?
