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That's dumb. Why would someone make a massive revision without giving the full explanation?
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
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And the DC Comics cosmology page has around 173 references, if I remember correctly. It has been thoroughly handled, even though I am very open to improvements in the language/wordings of the page, as well as further improvements on the practical applications (edits) of this accepted revision to our affected character profile pages, both from our project members and other knowledgeable members.
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Very tribalist us vs them mindset a lot of you guys seem to have for some obscure reasons. If the justifications weren't so weird and mishandled people wouldn't complain.
Even a user that has worked with you guys with the split has told me privately that he's not enjoying how the split is getting treated before.
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Definitely not true. People will complain about anything regardless of how solid it is if they want to upgrade the characters.
That's fine. A lot of people worked on the project, there was no way to guarantee that everyone agreed with everything that was done.
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I think it should be pretty obvious but the split itself was designed to solely restrict the tiers and doesn’t paint an accurate representation of the DC cosmology. And this was done through basically just deliberately ignoring a lot of evidence and core themes that surround the cosmology and help build the grand mythology at play.
For example, take a look at the pointless arguments made against the Godsphere not being in some way inspired and themed as a platonic reality that is also transcendent to the Orrery. Now because we have stuff like that being thrown at the Godsphere, Darkseid and the God tier characters as they appeared in Final Crisis are somehow on the same level as DC Heralds. Now take that same level of neglectfulness that was applied to the Godsphere and apply it to basically every other structure in the cosmology and you’ll get the messy and incoherent DC cosmology that’s on the site right now.
However, we didn’t just neglect core evidence, themes, and systems at play in the verse but we also ignored entire comics from the one of the writers that was extremely central to the development of the whole cosmology within mainstream DC. Grant Morrison as a writer is pretty renowned for linking up all their previous comics with their current comics and has even gone on record to say Multiversity and Final Crisis connect all the way back to Animal Man which was their first comic at DC. However, we claimed their older works were irrelevant and incompatible with their newer works despite giving zero evidence for such a claim and cut off around close to or more than half of their work.
I can go more in-depth but I don’t see a point unless there is some plan or focus to make change from people who truly do care about the verse. I also genuinely don’t think splitting all the cosmologies really makes much sense anymore for similar reasons Lord Tracer brought up.
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More the opposite. The composite approach was primarily used to string together unrelated scans from distinct and isolated continuities simply because they were printed by DC, so that they could be use to exaggerate the tiers of characters well beyond what they actually did in the source material.
We proved fairly thoroughly that the Godsphere doesn't have qualitative superiority relative to the Orrery, and that nothing from Animal Man aside from Limbo was actually retained in the mainline cosmology. Grant even did an entire comic and map dedicated to explaining the cosmology, but Limbo was the only thing kept from Animal Man. The idea of retaining things like the Implicate Order or Shamanism and scaling mainline characters to it just wasn't sensible in the least.
We proved fairly thoroughly that the Godsphere doesn't have qualitative superiority relative to the Orrery, and that nothing from Animal Man aside from Limbo was actually retained in the mainline cosmology. Grant even did an entire comic and map dedicated to explaining the cosmology, but Limbo was the only thing kept from Animal Man. The idea of retaining things like the Implicate Order or Shamanism and scaling mainline characters to it just wasn't sensible in the least.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Speaking like the split had hidden motivations because the staff involved wanted to downplay DC is ignorant at best and poisoning the well at worst. Do you have an actual case to make for some of the characters being tiered higher than what they currently are, or are you just upset that some of your favorite characters got downgraded and we can't have that because reasons?
First, even if you proved the SOTG was platonic, you still have all your work ahead of you to prove a specific tier to it. Second, we do consider the SOTG as transcendent to the Orrery, just not by so much as to warrant an uncountably infinite difference between them. Third, we absolutely don't consider SOTG-level characters as on the same level as DC heralds; Pre-Crisis heralds scale to three spacetimes, Post-Crisis heralds haven't even finished being upgraded yet and aren't going to scale to more than a few, while SOTG-level characters scale to 52 spacetimes.
We gave plenty of evidence for this, just ask anyone involved.
If you believe something on our profiles is wrong, explain it to us so that we can fix it. However, unless you take the time and effort to craft a genuinely well-reasoned and convincing case like Ultima did with compositing Marvel's cosmology to reach High 1-A instead of just complaining, you won't convince anyone.
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He's made many CRTs to that effect but all of them that I can remember were rejected by staff.
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I wouldn’t consider it ignorant at all. Especially since I could say literally the same for you assuming cosmic DC characters are my favorite when it’s actually heralds and then assuming I’m actually mad over it.
Of course I have reasons for why some characters should be at higher tiers but this isn’t a control thread and if I was to fix specific characters I’d prefer to do it there. I do still have plans to fix the profiles I think are extremely bad or inaccurate but I just currently don’t have the most availability.
I kind of already mentioned this but a lot of comics were restricted from Morrisons cosmology for pretty invalid reasons so it would be pointless to try and prove anything in the cosmologies current state on the site since we’re not able to grasp the cosmology in full. It would be much more efficient to just revamp the whole thing. Also yeah the Gods are gonna be higher into 2-C than heralds but the fact that the gods are 2-C like the heralds but simply higher into is what’s laughable.
You couldn’t point to any specific evidence for Morrisons earlier comics being incompatible with his previous comics even if you wanted to because there was no evidence given. The whole reason stems from some weird claim that Morrison retconned their earlier stories despite there being no evidence for such a thing and Morrison explicitly stating the opposite. And no I’m not gonna ask the people involved either, especially since I don’t consider them trustworthy for pretty valid reasons.
To fix DC would require another massive revision most likely taking a couple months to possibly a year. However, when I do feel like I have the time I’ll definitely try update some profiles.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I wasn't assuming anything about you, I was just making a general statement about people I've seen opposing the cosmology split. Saying "I wouldn’t consider it ignorant at all" isn't an argument.
They were restricted for perfectly valid reasons unless you can refute the reasons given. Saying "it's laughable" isn't an argument either and just comes off as you laughing off unambiguous evidence.
Whether you consider the people trustworthy is irrelevant to the scans they provide. @Deagonx Want to help me here? There was plenty of evidence given.
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Right. Morrison considers all of the stuff from Animal Man canon and part of the cosmology except never mentioned it in any of his later work or implemented it in the giant guide he was tasked with creating for the cosmology except Limbo. That makes perfect sense!
To align DC with your views, rather. The profiles are much better than they were before, and we aren't going to go backwards rather than forwards and undo the split or the revisions.
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He's aware, he attempted to debate against it when it was first discussed and wasn't successful. I wouldn't hang too much on attempting to get him to see reason. As you saw from the link you posted, he's been attempting DC upgrades for actual years without any success, so he's not going to change his mind now no matter what is provided to him.
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It didn’t come off that way to me but whatever. Also I would say claim that “it’s ignorant” isn’t an argument either.
I could but I already stated that the lots of evidence that could produce a different tier is being restricted so scaling the cosmology in its current state wouldn’t make much sense.
They didn’t provide any scans. However if you want me to breakdown the opposing argument and why it’s wrong I can very much do that.
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It's ignorant because you're claiming that people who've expressed quite clearly that they're only trying to handle irreconcilable contradictions are consciously trying to downplay a verse.
Where's this evidence?
@Deagonx Please help.
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Let’s start here then.
You claim Morrison never mentions Animal Man in his later work or on the guidebook and then immediately state that he included Limbo which was a big concept first explored in Animal Man that was also placed and illustrated on the Multiversity map in the Multiversity guidebook. So you’ve literally debunked yourself within your own claim.
I could obviously go deeper and directly show Morrison’s statements where they mention how every comic they’ve written for DC is connected and links up with one another. And go into all the tidbits of things that got carried on from other stories like JLA and Doom Patrol, but you’ve seemed to have already countered your own claims.
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All three of you drop the subject. If you want to debate about this go elsewhere and don't clog up the thread with these comments.
If you feel that it's warranted then go ahead. DC has roughly as much evidence as Marvel does for their higher dimensional spaces if you use the same evidence standards. Or at least I feel like they do.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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How?
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My statement was "he didn't mention any of it except Limbo." I didn't contradict myself, you split a single sentence up into two different ones.
But nonetheless, Qawsedf is right, this conversation isn't appropriate for this thread and a CRT can be made if you feel so inclined.
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DC has been around for like 80 years. There's plenty of higher dimensional quotes and strung together cosmological concepts to get them to that level.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Ultima made a strong case for compositing Marvel to that degree. Anyone want to do the same for DC?
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There are some higher dimensional statements. None that I know of are infinite, but the problem is they don't actually fit within any cosmology and they all contradict eachother, they all give different numbers.
But in Snyders actual main line event comics he very concretely says the Orrery is 3+1D spacetime.
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The split for the DC Cosmology isn't perfect, some things need adjusting, but the idea is at least good enough for me. A composite DC cosmology created an impossible chain of power scaling that did not match the feats shown by some characters in the comics and there was some problems with the cosmology since there is different interpretations of the DCU made by different writers.
PrinceofPein
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I think the point of the feat is that, even though there are things that connect these series of different writer's work together, there are far more things that disconnects them and makes it incoherent.
And of course anyone is welcome to make a CRT to overturn the decision instead of complaining about it, that would not change a thing
And of course anyone is welcome to make a CRT to overturn the decision instead of complaining about it, that would not change a thing
Stefano4444
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I'm not that knowledgeable when it come to Tier 1, i don't think i can be of much help here.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Does anyone in the cosmologies qualify for HDE anymore? The following people currently have it:
- Anti-Monitor
- Death of the Endless
- Mister Mxyzptlk
- The Monitor
- The Spectre
- The Ultra-Monitor
- The World Forger
- Zauriel (Post-Crisis)
- For Morrison/Snyder/Tynion, the Fifth and Sixth dimensions aren't spatial but provide the same degree of qualitative superiority as spatial ones, so what should we do with characters scaling to them?
- For Vertigo, Heaven/the Silver City and everything above is a qualitatively superior realm to the multiverse, but not in a spatial way, so what should we do with its characters?
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Do you mean Higher-Dimensional Existence ? If yes, they qualify for HDE. In the Snyder canon, Mr. Mxyzptlk was reducing the art to sketches, which in one sense means that he perceives the Material Universe as fiction, not to mention that Mxy was already said to exist on a higher-dimensional state. The Monitor Brothers' cells are such that they cannot exist on the 3-D plane of existence according to the World Forger (unless they change their cells to exist on the 3-D plane, but this reduce their power), they were portrayed to be far larger than the multiverse. I don't know if that's what you mean?
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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What about the Vertigo characters?
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The Archangels mostly scale to the Silver City which predates and transcends the Material Universe and looks down upon it. Time and Space are extensions of the mind and will, which Lucifer embodies.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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That's not a justification for another axis. Also, of the Endless, only Death has HDE, which seems inconsistent.
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The only thing I would like to note about the Morrison/Snyder/Tynion cosmology is that the higher planes of existence presented in Snyder's stories, while outside of time, do not transcend it since there have been cases where the Sixth Dimension has proven to have time.
The Sixth Dimension is referred to along a timeline of 20 billion years. When Superman fights in the Sixth Dimension, his speed is referred to in physical terms, saying it will take hours for light to catch up with him, months for sound. The higher planes may transcend space but do not transcend time.
The Sixth Dimension is referred to along a timeline of 20 billion years. When Superman fights in the Sixth Dimension, his speed is referred to in physical terms, saying it will take hours for light to catch up with him, months for sound. The higher planes may transcend space but do not transcend time.
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Yeah but the time stop didn't happened in the Sixth Dimension, but on Earth.Yeah, pretty much. Not to mention a time-stop working there.
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Transcending time is not an HDE requirement
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Good to know but does this affect the Low 1-C tiering?
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I wouldn't say so. Time is not a coordinate dimension but generalized in fiction as one. But you can have have your time stream be Tier 0 without affecting AP. You'd just need to prove that the space aligns with coordinate dimensions/higher dimensional spaces.
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So HDE characters in DC like Mister Mxyzptlk can remains Low 1-C?
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Afaik they can.
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I have one last question regarding the Monitors in general. The Monitors are far larger than creation and their cells are such that they cannot normally exist on the 3D plane of existence unless they change their own cells to entre the 3D World, but this greatly diminishes their power, is this a good justification for the Low 1-C tier ?
