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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

NHTkenshin2 said:
As in, each realm is more spiritual then the last, leading up to the most spiritual at the top?
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No. Read Executor's explanation again:
If Libra was becoming more spiritually aware and beyond what the physical body can affect, the fact that as he rose he became corporeal to the Sphere of Gods could just be the matter=spiritual equalization some emanationist philosophies apply.

That is to say, what is spiritual and transcendent is to the realm below that is physical from its own point of view, but that spiritual realm is physical to itself and what lies above, which that which lies above seeing the two realms below as physical.
V5rQwWS.png

So, it's possible to in fact use Libra's ascension to showcase it is an emanationist cosmology with the larger reality being transcendental to what lies below, while being physical and limited to what lies above.
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The idea is that all realms see themselves as physical, the realms below them as physical, and the realms above them as spiritual.
 
JfqA6GO.jpeg
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eRqk47C.jpeg
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Can somebody remind me which of our wiki pages that those screencaptures are from please?

Also, why would the Sphere of the Gods being an abstract realm of ideas automatically give it a higher tier than currently, and what is its current tier and suggested new tier?

DC Comics is extremely inconsistent in any case, so it would definitely not be unusual for the realms of its gods to be portrayed as conceptual in some stories and physical in others.
 
Antvasima said:
Can somebody remind me which of our wiki pages that those screencaptures are from please?
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The first is from Darkseid Pre-Flashpoint, the second is from our cosmology page.

Antvasima said:
Also, why would the Sphere of the Gods being an abstract realm of ideas automatically give it a higher tier than currently, and what is its current tier and suggested new tier?
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I'm not sure anyone has explicitly mentioned giving it a higher tier in this thread. Currently we do not treat the Sphere as having qualitative superiority, which is good.
 
Okay, but if we already accepted it as being officially established as conceptual during our official DC Comics revision, we probably shouldn't let the inconsistencies in other stories where Apokolips and New Genesis were portrayed as purely physical places affect that.

It can easily be reconciled by stating that the physical versions of Apokolips and New Genesis that have generally appeared within DC Comics stories are just material representations/Platonian cave wall shadows of their true selves.
 
Antvasima said:
It can easily be reconciled by stating that the physical versions of Apokolips and New Genesis that have generally appeared within DC Comics stories are just material representations/Platonian cave wall shadows of their true selves.
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There are some cases where this is not a fully functional reconciliation, which is my issue. I'm fine with it staying in the Cosmology page. I am just pointing out that the reality is more complicated than simply "Batman said it was, discussion over" which is how some people seem to treat it.
 
Antvasima said:
If there is no justification for that ability in those pages or the pages for the other Endless, that seems fine to me at least.
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By the way Ant, could you review IdiosyncraticLawyer’s transduality blog on the staff discussion thread here? We need that taken care of before we can proceed with the revision thread to examine the Overvoid’s transduality.
 
TiltedFN said:
Why don't we scale Platonism to 1-A again? Especially like concepts of space and time.
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vsbattles.com

A possible downgrade of 1-A Platonic concepts (Staff only)

I was just looking after a forum discussion about plutonic concepts transcending reality and all possible existing concepts, but frankly, that sounds kinda like an illogical impossibility. For something to be beyond reality, it would have to be both beyond all created concepts within a verse, so...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

As for why transcending the concepts of space-time isn’t 1-A, a concept is defined as an abstract essence that defines a part of reality. Hence, the concepts of space-time scale to the dimensions shown to exist as you can’t really extrapolate that to speculative dimensions.
 
Does Supergirl: Cosmic Adventures in the 8th Grade qualify under our notability standards for DC Comics? It has only six issues and was published within half a year in 2009.
 
Serious question: how reliably do you think we've tiered the cosmology split? As it stands, I find the cosmology page's formatting substandard for such a prominent verse, and we don't have profiles for a bunch of the characters there. I've also seen a bunch of people claim some parts of the cosmology should still be 1-A, which I've never quite understood. Marvel and DC's cosmic profiles were all unreliable and clunky before the recent overhauls; I've managed to properly make sense of Marvel now while DC's only improvement is that we scrubbed off the egregiously unjustified tiers.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Serious question: how reliably do you think we've tiered the cosmology split? As it stands, I find the cosmology page's formatting substandard for such a prominent verse, and we don't have profiles for a bunch of the characters there. I've also seen a bunch of people claim some parts of the cosmology should still be 1-A, which I've never quite understood. Marvel and DC's cosmic profiles were all unreliable and clunky before the recent overhauls; I've managed to properly make sense of Marvel now while DC's only improvement is that we scrubbed off the egregiously unjustified tiers.
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They’re probably just as or if not more unreliable than they were before. The tiers don’t make any sense, the profiles for the cosmic characters weren’t made any better, and the cosmologies for Morrison/Snyder and Dematteis should definitely scale higher.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Serious question: how reliably do you think we've tiered the cosmology split? As it stands, I find the cosmology page's formatting substandard for such a prominent verse, and we don't have profiles for a bunch of the characters there. I've also seen a bunch of people claim some parts of the cosmology should still be 1-A, which I've never quite understood. Marvel and DC's cosmic profiles were all unreliable and clunky before the recent overhauls; I've managed to properly make sense of Marvel now while DC's only improvement is that we scrubbed off the egregiously unjustified tiers.
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Not good because insufficient research was done
 
Xearsay said:
They’re probably just as or if not more unreliable than they were before. The tiers don’t make any sense, the profiles for the cosmic characters weren’t made any better, and the cosmologies for Morrison/Snyder and Dematteis should definitely scale higher.
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Hypertornado099 said:
Not good because insufficient research was done
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Any reasoning for why this is the case? If you would like to present a case for upgrading or revamping the profiles, then I'm all ears, but complaining about the cosmology split is nothing new to me.
 
Well, for starters, removing Animal Man holds no basis on anything. No Chain-scaling issues, no Incongruent Ratings and no Incompatibilities.

So adding that back would be a great step
 
I’m going to preface this by reminding everyone: I don’t like cosmology stuff that much, nor do I have any interest in engaging in a discussion about it. This is just what I’ve seen.

The two main complaints I’ve seen are that:
A. There’s no canonical basis for the split
B. It only takes like five writers into account, even though DC is a franchise that’s been around for almost 90 years with hundreds of writers. Taking out such a limited number, not explaining where other cosmologies would scale and completely neglecting certain eras of DC (i.e. Pre-Crisis) makes it come off as arbitrary.

And a complaint I had was that the initial application was incredibly rushed and sloppy. There were several characters where y’all just went through and changed the tier, neglecting to edit the stat justifications to match the new changes.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Any reasoning for why this is the case? If you would like to present a case for upgrading or revamping the profiles, then I'm all ears, but complaining about the cosmology split is nothing new to me.
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What LordTracer said. Splitting by writer is not something done in other series, so why should it be done with DC? Should we also split a character's powerset, personality and statistics by writers?
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Serious question: how reliably do you think we've tiered the cosmology split? As it stands, I find the cosmology page's formatting substandard for such a prominent verse, and we don't have profiles for a bunch of the characters there. I've also seen a bunch of people claim some parts of the cosmology should still be 1-A, which I've never quite understood. Marvel and DC's cosmic profiles were all unreliable and clunky before the recent overhauls; I've managed to properly make sense of Marvel now while DC's only improvement is that we scrubbed off the egregiously unjustified tiers.
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You're hearing from a lot of the people who opposed the split in the first place and wanted certain characters to stay extremely high.

How reliable are the profiles? Well, they are certainly way better than before, but the project lost steam at some point due to how long everything took, which is why some of the formatting suffered. There's certainly room for improvement,.
 
Hypertornado099 said:
What LordTracer said. Splitting by writer is not something done in other series, so why should it be done with DC? Should we also split a character's powerset, personality and statistics by writers?
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The split happened because the differing takes were just too irreconcilable to be cross-scaled at face value. With Marvel, Ultima took the time and effort to craft a convincing case for compositing different authors' cosmologies despite Marvel's contradictions. I'm open to someone trying the same for DC, but merely complaining about the split without offering actual evidence against it isn't going to convince anyone.
 
Don't know if i can put this hear
vsbattles.com

Maxwell Scribblenauts 1-C... Let me cook

I remade Maxwell's profile, with a twist! The Writer very much says they originate from the same continuity as the official DC New 52. He even supports his own claim by saying he tried to make it DC comic just with Scribblenauts characters inside it
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
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IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
The split happened because the differing takes were just too irreconcilable to be cross-scaled at face value. With Marvel, Ultima took the time and effort to craft a convincing case for compositing different authors' cosmologies despite Marvel's contradictions. I'm open to someone trying the same for DC, but merely complaining about the split without offering actual evidence against it isn't going to convince anyone.
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Ok, and should we also split abilities based on writers?
 
In truth, the cosmologies are not actually split by writer. They are split by continuities that happen to align relatively consistently with a single writer, but that isn't without exception. We allow a lot of cross-over when there's a clear reason to do so. We aren't talking about splitting up Superman into a key for everyone who wrote him.

DeMatteis, for instance, played in his own isolated cosmological sandbox that incorporated very little of what other writers were doing, and no other writers really pulled anything from his work. Pralaya, for instance, is best understood as existing in a DeMatteis "vacuum" of sorts because no one else has ever referenced her existence. Envisioning a composite cosmology where Perpetua and Pralaya have some sort of scaling chain between them, IMO, is really just not ideal at all.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Most characters affected by the cosmology split only exist in one cosmology, so it's not on the profiles.
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I'm talking about splitting DC character's abilities and keys based on writer. Not just the ones who scale to the cosmology, but every single character in DC

Deagonx said:
In truth, the cosmologies are not actually split by writer. They are split by continuities that happen to align relatively consistently with a single writer, but that isn't without exception. We allow a lot of cross-over when there's a clear reason to do so. We aren't talking about splitting up Superman into a key for everyone who wrote him.

DeMatteis, for instance, played in his own isolated cosmological sandbox that incorporated very little of what other writers were doing, and no other writers really pulled anything from his work. Pralaya, for instance, is best understood as existing in a DeMatteis "vacuum" of sorts because no one else has ever referenced her existence. Envisioning a composite cosmology where Perpetua and Pralaya have some sort of scaling chain between them, IMO, is really just not ideal at all.
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Not referencing does not equate to non canon. By the same token, the whole JLD comic would be a different continuity and we should also split Zatanna and John Constantine's profile and add feats from DeMatteis' comics into its own key
 
Hypertornado099 said:
I'm talking about splitting DC character's abilities and keys based on writer. Not just the ones who scale to the cosmology, but every single character in DC
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The cosmology was split because of extreme contradictions between different takes on it. Show me one character written so differently that splitting their P&A between authors would be necessary, and then we'll talk.
 
Hypertornado099 said:
Not referencing does not equate to non canon.
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Sure, I mean this is the canned response I get whenever I discuss this, but we aren't talking about two characters who live in Gotham but never met, and just assuming they never happened to cross paths. We're referring to the very highest cosmic beings with overlapping descriptions, functions, and domains, with no sense of continuity between them at all.

You are more than welcome to hold the philosophy that the best way to understand the verse is to mash it all together in spite of that, but I absolutely disagree.
 
LordTracer said:
And a complaint I had was that the initial application was incredibly rushed and sloppy. There were several characters where y’all just went through and changed the tier, neglecting to edit the stat justifications to match the new changes.
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We are very open to help from competent and knowledgeable members to improve on the changes to individual pages and to the formatting of our DC Comics Cosmology page, but the cosmology page in itself has been very thoroughly researched and officially accepted.
 
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