Fate/Stay Night Servants Speed Upgrade

[Jaften]

I think the idea is that the characters can move fast enough to "disappear" within 120th of a second—AKA, they can move out of the observer's field of vision within that time frame.

In your example, you had a red picture appear three times sequencially at different grid locations on a 10x10 screen for 120th of a second each. However, to my knowledge, that's not what happens in "invisible to the eye" feats like this. Instead of being like red images that repeatedly appear in one of the grid locations for ~120th of a second each time, it's more accurately described as being like red images that repeatedly travel from one end of the screen to the other within ~120th of a second each time.

Even if the characters aren't literally moving outside of the observer's peripheral vision each "frame", they are moving fast enough that they can move into and inhabit numerous completely separate "grids" within a single "frame", rather than remaining stationary at a single "grid" for a single "frame" before moving to another "grid".

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm. Welp we gotta see what to do to solve this in order to make a potential speed upgrade for the verse here.

 

[Yamatohime]

The main problem I see is that calculation assume that they move 150 meters in 1/120 seconds... Which is not true since observers saw numerous clashes. Other movements speeds are hard to calculate though.

 

[DontTalk]

@Jaften the 120 fps figure comes from an article that analyses it for literal frames on a screen, so for that figure it has nothing to do with moving out of the field of vision or similar.

So for this figure my argument like this absolutely applies.

 

[Jaften]

So, what do you propose we do, then?

 

[Yamatohime]

I found out that eye inertia (ability to refresh images) for normal human is around 20-120 ms.

 

[DontTalk]

To be honest? Nothing. I don't really see faster than eye feats as reliably quantifiable.

Some approximations for low speed are possible using real life examples of things that can easily be seen on close range (like you can see a 300 km/h motorcycle driving right past you), but for anything in such speed ranges it's a rather bad method, in my opinion.

 

[DontTalk]

I found out that eye inertia (ability to refresh images) for normal human is around 20-120 ms.

Source?

 

[Jaften]

Well, here's the link to the blog post with the calculations anyways.

Turns out the building is canonically 50 stories tall after all, and I wasn't merely making up numbers. I've edited the post to reflect the high end now being the confirmed result.

...It's a pity, Mach 76 HHS+ speeds would have looked pretty nice on the profiles.

 

[Yamatohime]

I found out that eye inertia (ability to refresh images) for normal human is around 20-120 ms.

Source?

Can't find English page. But Rod cells has slower response time (~100 ms more) compared to Cones cells.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, here's the link to the blog post with the calculations anyways.
Turns out the building is canonically 50 stories tall after all, and I wasn't merely making up numbers. I've edited the post to reflect the high end now being the confirmed result.

...It's a pity, Mach 76 HHS+ speeds would have looked pretty nice on the profiles.

The main problem is the time frame of the feat (since she jumped to the up floor from unkown floor).

 

[DontTalk]

Well, without an article that explains the exact meaning of the timeframe and how it was measured etc. it can likely not be used.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@DontTalk: So no potential speed upgrade?

 

[DontTalk]

In my current opinio not. But Alakabamm started this thread, so he might still has something to say to the topic.

 

[Jaften]

Well, without an article that explains the exact meaning of the timeframe and how it was measured etc. it can likely not be used.

Here's some stuff I found just now that you might find interesting to read.

Rapid visual processing speed (realtime latency): ~13 ms (75 fps)

Fixation/Pursuit tracking speed (conscious information processing): ~100+ ms (10 fps)

Saccadic movement speed (no consious information processing): 60―100 ms (10―16.66667 fps)

Chemical reaction of pigments in human eyes to light: 200 femtoseconds (5,000,000,000,000 fps)

Persistence of Vision

Flicker Fusion Threshold

Wagon-Wheel Effect

Study on effects of age on sensory thresholds and temporal gap-detectio

Bar graphs associated with the above linked study.

Estimation of the timing of human visual perception from magnetoencephalography: the relationship between manual reaction time to visual stimuli and the evoked neural response measured by magnetoencephalography

Can a Human See a Single Photon?

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, without an article that explains the exact meaning of the timeframe and how it was measured etc. it can likely not be used.

Here's some stuff I found just now that you might find interesting to read.
Rapid visual processing speed (realtime latency): ~13 ms (75 fps)

Fixation/Pursuit tracking speed (conscious information processing): ~100+ ms (10 fps)

Saccadic movement speed (no consious information processing): 60―100 ms (10―16.66667 fps)

So 60-100 ms is our best numbers.

 

[Jaften]

So 60-100 ms is our best numbers.

Well, the human brain can process entire images that the eye sees for as little as 13 milliseconds with "rapid processing speed". That's probably the closest we've got right now, even though it isn't true "faster than the eye/invisible speed".

I think, to get a better value for "faster than the eye/invisible speed", we should ultimately be looking deeper into persistence of Vision and temporal gap-detectio.

 

[Yamatohime]

So 60-100 ms is our best numbers.

Well, the human brain can process entire images that the eye sees for as little as 13 milliseconds with "rapid processing speed". That's probably the closest we've got right now, even though it isn't true "faster than the eye/invisible speed".

13 ms is the brain processing speed but in terms of visual data... It invisible for us completely.

 

[DontTalk]

this article is the most interesting of them looking through it. Going by it in order to see an object in motion the eye movement has to stabilize the object within 3┬░ of visual angle for 100 ms for that to happen.

That gives us two seperate criterias that have to be fulfilled to not be visible.

1. The character has to be faster than the eye movement can follow.

2. It has to move through 3┬░ visual angle field of a human in under 100 ms.


Lets do 2. first: Formula. D is distance between viewer and target and S is distance that can be seen/has to be crossed.

tan(V/2)*2D=S

V= 3┬░ = 0.0174533 radians => tan(0.0174533/2)*2D = 0.000304617552*D

So speed we get from criteria 2: 0.000304617552*D/0.1 = Speed


Ok then 1, this criteria can only apply if the character doesn't escape from the Field of View in the 100 ms after the eye focuses:

The human eye can turn with 900┬░/s (at most) = 45┬░/0.05s

Now this depends a bit on direction, but going with paaralel movement:

tan(45┬░)=S/D => tan(45┬░)*D=S=D

D/0.05 = Speed


Now all to sure about this, but a better approximation I would believe.

That said one might also want to discuss if we even want to use something like this. (the so fast that it can not be seen by humans is a very common trope and usually doesn't have much of a meaning except simply faster)


(About the speed that the others use, from what I found when taking a look through them most of them used flash / short picture method to get their results, which is not directly connected to visual perception of movement)


Edit: The first value would then apply to blitzing and disappearing from someones vision then (normal humans only, do not use in any form for superhumans) and the second value would be for fighting so fast that normal human can not see the one fighting.

 

[Jaften]

13 ms is the brain processing speed but in terms of visual data... It invisible for us completely.

Not quite. Faster than that (I believe an interval of 9 ms was mentioned?) is when effectively all participants were unable to properly process the flashed image (AKA it appeared to them as a vague blurry formless blob of diluted colors) and were forced to resort to guessing. However, they were still able to notice the image flashing, so it wasn't "invisible" yet. But, this does give us a very likely time interval limit for the "indistinguishable blur" type of "faster than the eye" movement, which while not what we are looking for, is useful information nonetheless.

So, can we agree that "so fast one becomes a completely indistinguishable blur" speed most likely requires the character to cross a distance within 13 milliseconds, and that true "faster than the eye" must be a shorter time than that? At 10 meters, "blur speed" is already Mach 2.26.

 

[RegisNex1232]

My only problem with the upgrade is the scaling. It just doesn't work in the context of the Nasuverse due to the different summonings of the Servants. I'll further elaborate below, but there may be spoilers for those unaware.

SPOILERS!!!!

Scaling all other Servants from this is near impossible due to how the Servants are summoned in different works. In each work of Nasu regarding Fate, there is a different type of Holy Grail, due to different circumstances, which all take place due to the 'Kaleidoscope' theory as they call it, or simply parallel universes viewed by Zelretch. Because of that, this affects the Class containers in different ways to the point that they are not the same for each Grail. Take the Heroic Spirit, or the Original version, as a lake. And take each Class container as a different type of bucket, with a different shape. The problem comes when one Class has two or more different containers for the Heroic Spirit, due to the Grails for each Grail War being different. This affects their stats and such to a degree where they can be wholly different from one another. An example is Gilgamesh. In F/SN, he has HS speed with HS+/HHS reflexes, but in F/Strange Fake, a Grail War which takes place in America, he has automated defenses that protect him from actual lightning bolts, around MHS/MHS+ reflexes. He also has a clash with Enkidu, which is visible in space, something no F/SN Servant has shown to be capable of. In the latest story, Fate/Grand Order, a mobage which is downloadable on your phone via an app depending on where you live, it is revealed that the Fuyuki version of the Grail is a toned down version of the real deal, and a new class called Grand Servants is shown, where if a Servant is summoned in this class (whether as Grand Saber, Grand Archer and so on), they are summoned exactly as they were in real life, with no draw backs to hold them back. Nasuverse seems to be approaching Marvel/DC levels of power creep and the worst part is that WoG isn't really helpful since Nasu likes to leave loopholes in his answers so that he can change things whenever he wants with a reason for doing so.

So overall, scaling from this to all Servants is iffy at best and horribly misleading at worst. It can only be used for F/SN Servants as they appear in that story and maybe F/Z Servants, again as they appear in that story. That's my two cents on this and regarding the calc, I have no objections other than what people have already said.

 

[Jaften]

this article is the most interesting of them looking through it. Going by it in order to see an object in motion the eye movement has to stabilize the object within 3┬░ of visual angle for 100 ms for that to happen.

Yeah, I seem to remember employing a similar technique(?) in a past calculation involving a faster-than-eye feat at distance. I reasoned that it wasn't so much required that the one character "shunpo" away so fast the other guy couldn't see the movement, but rather easier to explain as the one guy greatly outpacing the other guy's visual reaction time and staying far enough ahead of his eye movement that the other guy would quickly lose track of him.

 

[Yamatohime]

Not quite. Faster than that (I believe an interval of 9 ms was mentioned?) is when effectively all participants were unable to properly process the flashed image (AKA it appeared to them as a vague blurry formless blob of diluted colors) and were forced to resort to guessing. However, they were still able to notice the image flashing, so it wasn't "invisible" yet. But, this does give us a very likely time interval limit for the "indistinguishable blur" type of "faster than the eye" movement, which while not what we are looking for, is useful information nonetheless.

So, can we agree that "so fast one becomes a completely indistinguishable blur" speed most likely requires the character to cross a distance within 13 milliseconds, and that true "faster than the eye" must be a shorter time than that? At 10 meters, "blur speed" is already Mach 2.26.

That's where you got confused: 13 ms is brain processing speed for fixed location while 60-100 ms is the best possible processing speed for moving target.

 

[KamiYasha]

@RegisNex1232

About the power-scaling.

It's perfectly capable of being power-scale to F/Z, F/Stay Night, Ulimited Blade Works, Saber Alter (Heaven's Feel), so far here, there isn't a single profile about Fate/Strange fake (aside from Enkidu which is more like a composite), or Prototype, or even Grand Order.

The differences between the fourth and the three versions of the fifth war are meaningless

So, i don't see any problem.

 

[Jaften]

That's where you got confused: 13 ms is brain processing speed for fixed location while 60-100 ms is the best possible processing speed for moving target.

I don't really see where you're coming from here. The tests fpr the rapid processing speed involved multiple images flashed back-to-back for 13 milliseconds each. Functionally, visual perception of movement breaks down to the ability to detect and discern minutiae in light levels, which is exactly the same thing as what is happening with rapid processing. No, you likely couldn't follow a object moving in the 13 ms time interval with your eyes during that time, but as the tests have shown us, you'd still have high likelihood of seeing it change (movement). So we can't call that "so fast it's invisible".

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, 13 ms is fixed position recognition. After 13 ms recognition is impossible at all (since it's still fixed position the brain can still recongize something - because eyes for focused). In terms of moving target if something moves through fixed POW the brain will fail recognize it if it will be in POW for less than 60 ms (eye adjustment failure).

 

[KamiYasha]

Now i realize something...

The old calc that the result was Mach 15 was using 120 fps or 0.008333 s. i believe.

 

[RegisNex1232]

@KamiYasha, but we do have profiles like Karna and such, who don't feature in F/SN or F/Z and this upgrade involves them as well. So that is the only problem I have with scaling them with this.

 

[Jaften]

In the latest story, Fate/Grand Order, a mobage which is downloadable on your phone via an app depending on where you live, it is revealed that the Fuyuki version of the Grail is a toned down version of the real deal, and a new class called Grand Servants is shown, where if a Servant is summoned in this class (whether as Grand Saber, Grand Archer and so on), they are summoned exactly as they were in real life, with no draw backs to hold them back. Nasuverse seems to be approaching Marvel/DC levels of power creep and the worst part is that WoG isn't really helpful since Nasu likes to leave loopholes in his answers so that he can change things whenever he wants with a reason for doing so.

Ugh, Fate/Grand Order... a shameless money grab, that one is. I hate it for bringing in a bunch of cheap talent from the outside... trashing up the place with all the shoehorned contradictory lore, and don't get me started on the awful low-grade nonsensical downright insulting fanservicey character designs...

I mean, don't get me wrong, I really like some of them—namely the ones made obviously by the experienced and talented people who put time, effort and love into their creations.

Most of the remainders I either tolerate or ignore.

But then there's those abominations.

But I won't rant about that any more. I'm getting off topic.

 

[KamiYasha]

We also have Fate/Extra and Extra/CCC.

But so far the only ones that have a different are Fate/Prototype and Extra/CCC. The rest so far doesn't have any difference.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Actually there is a difference between the Grails used in each war, with some being tainted and others not and how strong the Servants summoned by it are. All I'm saying is if this goes through, it can only apply for F/SN and F/Z, and the other characters who don't appear in them have to be scaled from feats within their stories itself. That's all.

 

[Jaften]

Actually there is a difference between the Grails used in each war, with some being tainted and others not and how strong the Servants summoned by it are. All I'm saying is if this goes through, it can only apply for F/SN and F/Z, and the other characters who don't appear in them have to be scaled from feats within their stories itself. That's all.

To be honest, the only ones that are mainstream canon are Fate/stay night (all routes and endings), Fate/Zero, and Fate/hollow ataraxia. Everything else is either directly derivative of those three, a set of weird far-flung alternate future sidestories with virtually no impact on the mainstream setting, self-contained collaborative fanfi―literature by freelance or guest writers with minimal involvement by TYPE-MOON, a glimpse at Old Fate, some form of kaleidoscopic crossover shenanigans, an obvious attempt at money-making aimed to be extra-friendly towards mainstream non-fan consumers, or blacksheep lolicon garbage.

...I think that's everything worth mentioning, besides the databooks and other pretty minor stuff.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Actually everything is canon as far as Nasu is concerned, it's just that they take place in different timelines, since he's actually involved in most/all of the works and gives his approval for all of them. So saying that F/SN, F/Z and F/HA are mainstream canon is false, they may have appeared first, but they have the same canon level as every other work.

 

[KamiYasha]

Aside from Canaan and DDD. Yes, everything is "canon".

Btw, this is getting too off-topic.

 

[Alakabamm]

The powerscaling was only going to be for F/Z, F/SN and Tsukihime/Melty Blood, I recognize the difference in consistency between the works. You can look at my list to see the scaled characters.

Also, DT, the justification for using the timeframe in which humans cannot perceive movement (1/120th, I think this is an OBD standard actually) is this quote in particular:

In the instant it takes them to move to the rooftop, they clash numerous times. If there were anyone watching them from the ground, they would think it looks like pinball. But then again, they cannot be perceived with the naked eye.

It says specifically that they move to the rooftop in an instant, faster than can be perceived with the naked eye. Are you caught up on the fact that there is a difference between the servants being unable to be seen and the entire movement up the tower unable to be seen? In that quote, it is pretty clearly the tower scaling that is unseen to the human eye.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Yeah, you're right and I'm sorry for that. I hope that you all got my points about the upgrade though.

That said, is the calc ok or not? From reading, it seems that there's some questions regarding moving so fast the eye can't see which is where the timeframe comes from. Is that the only problem with the calc?

 

[Alakabamm]

Well, I am unsure what part DT has a problem with. It might be where 1/120 came from or it might be the movement itself. I'll need to wait.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Well, I am unsure what part DT has a problem with. It might be where 1/120 came from or it might be the movement itself. I'll need to wait.

He's referring to the timeframe, since just because they're moving fast enough to be invisible to the naked eye, there's different timeframes for that, as the eye takes less time to recognize the object if it's still and longer if the object is moving as well as how the eyes actually perceive objects and how the brain works to fill in the gaps. So the 1/120th of the second isn't valid for him. If I've got it wrong, feel free to correct me DT.

 

[Alakabamm]

well, it was the movement all the way up the building from the quote I posted, not the instantaneous movement

Notice how it said that it WOULD look like something, but it doesn't because you can't even see them move up the building.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Well, I think it's best at this point to just wait for DT to clarify his position.